I would flush the system with new fluid and rebuild the calipers and master cylinder and then go from there.

 

There is no evidence that his seals are swollen from the information in this thread.

 

No one here said it would fix the problem. However, when fixing something the first thing you start with is the easiest and most obvious, not tearing out everything and rebuilding / buying new components.

That's not an amateur way of doing something, that's the smart way. If he is still having the problem, then he needs to investigate it further. He doesn't even know IF the system was contaminated, nor IF the rubber seals are swollen from another oil.

 

1. He has a brake problem, which is why he took it in to get a 2nd opinion in the first place.

2. The 2nd opinion told him he has swollen seals and contaminated brake fluid.

So, you're sitting here on the internet appearing to contradict the people who inspected his system. Your extreme form of skepticism is unjustified, and it would be unwise of him to do a brake fluid flush and refill, as some have suggested, and then go driving his car around on public roads. If he needs to go to a 3rd brake mechanic, then by all means he should do that.

All indications are he has a serious problem, which is why he went for the 2nd opinion and why he started this thread. I also sense in his post a reluctance to face bad news. And it looks bad, and expensive. (not to mention extensive, in terms of damage.) Sometimes unpleasant situations have to be faced. It does no good to minimize them, be in denial, or try to fix the problem on the cheap or half assed.

 

That doesn't mean you rip everything out. A lot places will tell you that your engine is blown when you only need to change your spark plugs.

What second opinion actually looked at his car to come to this conclusion? Did anyone examine his Master Cylinder or any othe component in his car aside from saying his system was contaminated? Did they offer him proof as to it really was contaminated? Did they send the fluid out to be inspected?

I don't see ANY evidence to any of those claims in this thread as I said before.


If you read his original post, it doesn't sound like they inspected anything. Most places will recommend to replace everything instead of trying to fix the real problem. If someone tell me my brake system is contaminated, they better offer some proof.

So far, all he's described is that he has dragging brakes and very little play. Right now, it sounds like they need to adjust the piston for the Master Cylinder so its not engaged so much at rest (which is an adjustment on the brake pedal). That's hardly the end all tell tale sign of a brake system contamination.

 

For the money to repair i would have my fluid tested and find out for sure. Both fluids cause hose deteriation and seals to swell over time. Dont you just hate it when you just dont know!!

 

What evidence do you have that their diagnosis is invalid? You immediately jump to this extreme form of skepticism and they've looked at the car and you haven't.
It's completely unjustified, especially when he has symptoms consistent with swollen seals.

BTW, do you know there's a simple home test for contaminated brake fluid? Siphon some brake fluid from the top of your reservoir. Mix it with water. If some of it floats to the top of the water you've got an oil based contaminant. If it mixes thoroughly, then you don't have a contaminant, or at least it isn't oil based.

 

Because, if they knew for a fact the system was contaminated, they would have provided him with the test. Would you believe someone who told you your engine needed to be replaced because the compression test was low, yet they never showed you the results?

Come on, at least be a little human here.

Swollen seals make the brakes work "too good" and drag? If you do some research, swollen seals have the exact opposite: long pedal transfer, brakes don't react, etc.. Basically the same symptoms of a failed Master Cylinder (which means the seals have failed).

So far, I have not seen any evidence which the original poster has posted that leads to the same conclusions the brake shop has given him.

As you mentioned, that would only be for oil based contamination. There are many other thing which can damage the seals that aren't oil based. A chemical test should really be done to determine if there is a problem if "contamination" is really a possibility. However, as I mentioned above, he hasn't reported yet that he's having the symptoms of contamination or failed MC seals.

He has working brakes, short brake pedal travel, and dragging brake. Those all lead to an improperly set MC piston.

 

I have some personal experience on this, though with my Miata.

About January the brakes started sticking a bit. It got a little worse, and I took the car to a trusted mechanic to check it out.

He took a look at it, had his guys flush the brake system with new fluid, then told me he would not charge me for the job, and recommended I not drive the car.
(limiting his liability)

He sees cases like this on a regular but infrequent basis. Divorce cases typically. The spouse dumps a little ATF or oil in the Master Cylinder and the brakes get contaminated. In my case it was probably the previous owner, likely using DOT5 fluid out of ignorance.

My mechaninc told me I would need to replace all components of the brake system that had rubber in them. The lines to the brakes, the proportioning valve, the master cylinder and the calipers.

I told my mechanic I would do the job myself as I hadn't planned on buying brakes for this car. I drove home against his advice and parked the car.

It took a couple of weeks to get the parts ordered, and for me to have time to work on the car. While sitting, the brakes had gotten so bad that the car would barely move. Getting into 3rd gear was out of the question.

Incidentally, the guy at mazda-parts.com told me he had seen brakes screwed up like this by someone using DOT5 fluid in a DOT4 system.

So, I replaced everything. Was about $1000. I saved a few bucks by using a Wilwood proportioning valve instead of the stock one. ( non ABS car)

So, do you need to replace all the components in the brake system?
I replaced everything but the hard lines. If the contamination screwed up the calipers so bad they swelled nearly shut, it couldn't be too good for the rest of the system.

Another friend of mine that is a mechanic has seen this as well. A friend of his was stranded on the freeway when her brakes locked up. She had been to Jiffy lube earlier in the week, and they had used the wrong brake fluid. Jiffy had to pay to replace the entire brake system.

 

What was said before....The only sure fire way to know anything is to get the fluid tested by another shop and see the results from them, better yet I'd see if the Mazda dealer could do this. This will get you a yes or no answer, not an oppinion. I can't imagine how nervous I would be driving around on brakes that could be damaged!

Anyways, if your FD is anything like mine don't expect your emergency brake to actually help in an emergency

 

How do you know they didn't? You're sitting here on the internet and you haven't looked at his car. A company that does brakes has, and yet, you sitting here by remote control contradict them. Sorry, but you're not in possession of any facts, or even observations. We do know he has a problem and we have have a diagnosis from a firm that does brake jobs. That's what's in evidence on one side of the column. On the other side we have you sitting at your computer screen saying it ain't so.

I don't know if you've ever owned a repair firm, as I have, or if you have experience in these matters, but here is what he should do if he thinks the people he paid to do the previous brake work are responsible for this problem.

1. Tow the car over to the firm that did the original work and demand they fix free of charge.

2. Make sure you keep a file of all paper records: the receipt for the original brake work, the towing bill, and the 2nd opinion.

3. Tell the firm you want all parts saved that come off the car. Inspect the calipers for swollen seals. If the JustBrakes diagnosis is confirmed you will want to replace all the parts containing rubber in the hydraulic system replaced. Don't settle for just replacing the calipers.

4. If they balk at doing the complete job, take them to court.

There are other details within these steps, but that's the broad overview.

 

Yup, that's the bad news with brake fluid contamination, I'm afraid. You handled it the right way.

 

Why couldn't you rebuild the calipers? I don't see why they would need to be replaced.

 

A swollen seal in the master cylinder can cause the brakes to bind. Read and learn:



http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache...&cd=9&ie=UTF-8

 

From many other sites on the net (and my own experience with the problem):

"The valve seals are precision components, designed to allow the transfer of fluid from the reservoir into the hydraulic system as required. (eg, when brake pads wear, more fluid is required in the caliper to take up that wear). If the valve seals swell, they stop working. This leads to a spongy pedal and excess travel. In the case of severe contamination, the seals swell so much that they restrict the movements of the pistons and understandably cause both long pedal travel and brake bind."

Once again, he doesn't have long pedal travel.

 

From his initial post: "i just got back from JustBrakes a little bit ago and they told me my brakes were contaminated. possibly the previous owner put in power steering fluid into the system"

Does that sound like they tested the fluid? If they did and it was positive, I don't think the original poster would even bother posting this thread.

I'm in the fact just like any other thread on this forum. Someone post their symtoms, and people offer suggestions. From his symptoms, he doesn't have "swollen seals". However, that doesn't mean he doesn't have contamination of his brake system but he definitely does not have swollen seals. That is demonstrated by the fact that he has pedal pressure so that means the MC is holding pressure, his car does brake. His problem, as stated in this thread, is that his brakes are dragging.


Nobody is saying any different. People are disbuting the "entire brake system needs to be replaced" without any evidence being provided that it does.

 

sorry to cause so much tension from starting this thread but you guys have been a big help. i havent been posting much but have been coming back to check the forums every hour or so. im having my whole system flushed out about 4 or 5 times tomorrow from a trusted mech. but so far you guys have been the biggest help.
thanks

 

Apparently you didn't read the link I provided. It contradicts your statement above and explains how a swollen seal in the master cylinder would cause the brakes to bind. You have something to learn.

 

Well, provide us with some information then. Do you think your brake fluid is contaminated? Do you think they tested it? For an oil based contamination you can perform the home test I suggested. Use an amount of water proportional to the brake fluid you take out of your reservoir. A turkey baster or eye dropper would help here.

You should understand though that if seals have swollen in your hydaulic system just replacing the fluid won't cure them. And if you flush the system now and a test of the brake fluid hasn't been performed to your satisfaction you lose your chance to pinpoint the source fo the problem and possibly affix the blame.

I don't have time to provide links now (other than what I've already provided), but if you do a Google search for swollen caliper seals, contaminated brake fluid, etc. you'll come up with some useful information about what's needed in this situation.

 

Everyone is correct!

http://www.brakesint.co.uk/technical.html#techNote801

Long pedal travel and/or spongy pedal
The valve seals are precision components, designed to allow the transfer of fluid from the reservoir into the hydraulic system as required. (eg, when brake pads wear, more fluid is required in the caliper to take up that wear). If the valve seals swell, they stop working. This leads to a spongy pedal and excess travel. In the case of severe contamination, the seals swell so much that they restrict the movements of the pistons and understandably cause both long pedal travel and brake bind.

http://www.mightyautoparts.com/pdf/articles/otl0204.pdf

Both front calipers were in the applied position andthe vehicle would barely move. Convinced that theproblem must be in the master cylinder, a new unitwas installed (for the record, it was defective).Returning from a road test, the front disc pads wereextremely hot and emitting a terrible odor. Obvi-ously the system was still maintaining residualpressure on the front calipers. Removing and dis-assembling the recently installed calipers revealedsome swollen seals. The lips of the seals were asdeformed as a boxer’s ears. Contaminated fluidhad been the problem. A few weeks prior, thevehicle had been serviced and apparently someonehad topped off the master cylinder with powersteering fluid.

Bottom line, from an amateurs point of view, the best is to flush the system as everyone said in the first place. If it was contaminated, then the symptoms won't go away and he can then go and spend all that money...

 

Except that undercuts any legal recourse he might have. If he suspects the last person who touched his brakes contaminated his brake fluid and he doesn't have good evidence of that, then he will want to obtain that evidence before he literally flushes it away.

And so your post above is saying that contaminated brake fluid can cause brakes to bind? Well, whaddya know. Mr. Magic may have learned something today.

 

And here's (one of many sights) how and why you can have no pressure with the system if the seals are "swollen" (i.e. contaminated buy a mineral based oil):

http://www.herguth.com/capabilities/brakeswell.htm

As you can see/read, the rubber would just turn to basically goop. The seals in the MC wouldn't be able to hold any pressure and you would just have a loose pressure. Now, there are all sorts of contaminents which can do all sorts of scenarios, but again the original poster hasn't stated he has these symtoms yet.

His symptoms could just be frozen calipers or an improperly adjusted MC piston. I hope its something simple for his sake, but IMO, I would never automatically jump to the conclusion that the entire braking system needs to be replaced without examining the seals (and calipers in general), testing the MC, and testing the existing fluid.

 

Use an air-powered vacuum bleeder to completely flush them out. First suck out as much old fluid from the reservoir. Then refill with fresh. Stick the reservoir bottle on top of the reservoir (our system is called Vacula. Uses a reservoir upside down on the master cyl to keep it full, then an air powered tank and a hose that you stick on the bleeder to suck out fluid). Bleed each wheel for several minutes. Start from the farthese from the master cylinder (right/rear wheel, then l/r, then r/f, then l/f).

 

You really do like hearing yourself talk.... Let me say what you're telling yourself: "You are right, you are perfect, everyone else is wrong..."

The point is that he doesn't know what is going on, someone just said "Oh, your brakes are binding? Then it may have been contaminated with power steering fluid and you need to replace all your brake components."

It's possible that his fluid is just very dirty, which can also cause those symptoms.

And what the hell kind of recourse do you think he's gonna have? None. Good luck trying to prove that one.

 

Another possible explanation for the "dragging front brakes" symptom is that they accidentally swapped the caliper bolts, which happens A LOT on these cars. To check for this condition, look at the inner brake rotor surface (look from the back side of the wheel). If the bolts are swapped, there will be a pronounced stripe of wear in the middle of the rotor surface. It only takes a minute to look.

-Max