Chipped APEX seal? Please help ASAP!!!!
02-07-04, 03:54 AM
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Chipped APEX seal? Please help ASAP!!!!
Ok here it goes:
Have a 93 FD with mods as listed:
Power FC w/commander, dp, mp, cb, radiator, 1300cc injectors, greddy smic, apexi intake, jspec twins, silicone hose kit, and other basic mods.
Car has about 70k miles on it with stock port
Took it today to get it tuned. So we hooked it on up to the datalogit w/wideband and take it out to the streets to do some runs. It is pulling harder than ever on these runs and is working great. Then on about the 10th run in 45 mins or so I step on it in 2nd gear at 2000 RPM and take it up to redline as I have done a few times before. Once I hit redline I let off gas completely and engine turns off. No sound of detonation, the air/fuel ratio was safe, a lil rich. SO, we try to start her back up and it turns and turns but no start. So after messing around a lil bit we decide we need to push-start it. This works just fine, car starts right up. Then the idle now is out 1500 when usually around 900 with the PFC. It then drops down and holds out around 300 RPM for a lil while then goes back up to 850 or so and chills there like nothing ever happened for basically as long as I want it to stay in idle. Anyways, we turn off car and unhook the O2 sensor that was used to tune car and put mine back in etc... Car wont start again so we push start. On the ride home the idle either stays right at where it should be or drops down to 300 or so and bumps a lil bit around there. I still have some power, didnt boost much at home but did a lil to see if power was still there and it was. Now the tuner said he thinks I chipped an Apex seal but I dunno if he is right or not.
Reason why i think he might be right is that the apexi intake was actually falling out of the intake duct and was letting a very little bit of unfiltered air into the engine. Thinking maybe dirt specks got in? Anyways, what does this sound like to you?
If it is what you think it is how much $$ am I gunna be out? I know I could get a reman motor installed etc for $2000. I have some friends in the business. But I dont have $2000 =(.
I am way looking forward to your replies as I need this problem fixed ASAP. I need to know if I need a complete rebuild, or just an Apex seal replaced or what. I am lost and a little scared on what is going on any help WAY appreciated.
Also, last, when I would pop my hood at idle my engine wouldn't shake too much, just vibrate a lil like most engines. But now when I pop the hood when the car is at idle it seems as if a motor mount came loose?!? It is shaking a lil bit more...dunno if it pertains to the Q but thought it might be worth mentioning. Thanks for your time guys =)
Have a 93 FD with mods as listed:
Power FC w/commander, dp, mp, cb, radiator, 1300cc injectors, greddy smic, apexi intake, jspec twins, silicone hose kit, and other basic mods.
Car has about 70k miles on it with stock port
Took it today to get it tuned. So we hooked it on up to the datalogit w/wideband and take it out to the streets to do some runs. It is pulling harder than ever on these runs and is working great. Then on about the 10th run in 45 mins or so I step on it in 2nd gear at 2000 RPM and take it up to redline as I have done a few times before. Once I hit redline I let off gas completely and engine turns off. No sound of detonation, the air/fuel ratio was safe, a lil rich. SO, we try to start her back up and it turns and turns but no start. So after messing around a lil bit we decide we need to push-start it. This works just fine, car starts right up. Then the idle now is out 1500 when usually around 900 with the PFC. It then drops down and holds out around 300 RPM for a lil while then goes back up to 850 or so and chills there like nothing ever happened for basically as long as I want it to stay in idle. Anyways, we turn off car and unhook the O2 sensor that was used to tune car and put mine back in etc... Car wont start again so we push start. On the ride home the idle either stays right at where it should be or drops down to 300 or so and bumps a lil bit around there. I still have some power, didnt boost much at home but did a lil to see if power was still there and it was. Now the tuner said he thinks I chipped an Apex seal but I dunno if he is right or not.
Reason why i think he might be right is that the apexi intake was actually falling out of the intake duct and was letting a very little bit of unfiltered air into the engine. Thinking maybe dirt specks got in? Anyways, what does this sound like to you?
If it is what you think it is how much $$ am I gunna be out? I know I could get a reman motor installed etc for $2000. I have some friends in the business. But I dont have $2000 =(.
I am way looking forward to your replies as I need this problem fixed ASAP. I need to know if I need a complete rebuild, or just an Apex seal replaced or what. I am lost and a little scared on what is going on any help WAY appreciated.
Also, last, when I would pop my hood at idle my engine wouldn't shake too much, just vibrate a lil like most engines. But now when I pop the hood when the car is at idle it seems as if a motor mount came loose?!? It is shaking a lil bit more...dunno if it pertains to the Q but thought it might be worth mentioning. Thanks for your time guys =)
02-07-04, 04:01 AM
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do you think a kit like this: http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...tem=2458897361
would do the job?
would do the job?
02-07-04, 05:43 AM
#3
Weird Cat Man
Sounds to me like you have a broken apex seal or another seal problem inside the engine. This is not caused by getting unfiltered air, but rather by overly aggressive tuning. You said it was a little rich... but ya never know 100% 
You weren't over revving it were you?
Anyhow, to try to figure it out do a compression test...
Brian
You weren't over revving it were you?Anyhow, to try to figure it out do a compression test...
Brian
02-07-04, 06:02 AM
#4
Rotary Enthusiast
no i do not think so ,altough only a compression check will tell you for shure , but i dont think so
check for hoses and such , check if youre map sensor`s hose didnt pop off , that sort of thing , how does youre throttle response feel like?? ,if youre pedal feels spongy and kinda lumpy youre probably in trouble ,but if it feels strong and firm (this is all reving the car ) youre engine is most likely ok
check for hoses and such , check if youre map sensor`s hose didnt pop off , that sort of thing , how does youre throttle response feel like?? ,if youre pedal feels spongy and kinda lumpy youre probably in trouble ,but if it feels strong and firm (this is all reving the car ) youre engine is most likely ok
02-07-04, 12:07 PM
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Wargasm: When I let off gas I was at or close to 7000 RPM even. Out of all the runs the highest I took her was 7300 RPM. Tuning read 10.6 A/F at the highest RPM point.
Felix: Throttle feels fine. She'll rev up without problem. The only two probs I have is that it wont start without push starting it and that when I am driving it the idle goes down to 300 or so and bumps there for a lil while. But when I get out of my car and let it sit the idle goes back up to 900 RPM and chills there for however long I let it idle.
Also, if it is what wargasm said with a broken apex seal or other seal will this kit installed most likely fix the problem (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/e...item=2458897361) ?
Lots of Q's, any more help appreciated.
Also, will check on that Map sensor hose as you stated Felix =)
If this problem isnt fixed by Monday I will take it in for a compression check.
Felix: Throttle feels fine. She'll rev up without problem. The only two probs I have is that it wont start without push starting it and that when I am driving it the idle goes down to 300 or so and bumps there for a lil while. But when I get out of my car and let it sit the idle goes back up to 900 RPM and chills there for however long I let it idle.
Also, if it is what wargasm said with a broken apex seal or other seal will this kit installed most likely fix the problem (http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/e...item=2458897361) ?
Lots of Q's, any more help appreciated.
Also, will check on that Map sensor hose as you stated Felix =)
If this problem isnt fixed by Monday I will take it in for a compression check.
02-07-04, 01:35 PM
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i distinctly remember saying to get it done by a reputable tuner and shop. who was helping you on the datalogit?
how is your timing? any negative split anywhere?
as long as your housings are in good shape you should be able to replace all the seals and do it again. however you shouldnt have been out driving it in that condition. odds are that you could have scarred up your housings...and if you are shooting apex seals out your exhaust then you could damage your twins if you drive it in that condition....so quit driving the car and take it to a reputable shop in your area...rotary reliability and racing can do a compression check for cheap...go to them...nick will know what your problem is within ten seconds of hearing your machine. TOW IT.
no more driving k?
but that doesnt fix the reason why your blew your motor...you could have a bad injector...could have been bad fuel...a bad fuel filter...and a bunch of other things.
unless you are doing the install yourself its still going to cost you two grand.
I will giggle if its your map sensor hose.
to be completely honest, your knowledge of the car is limited and when you deal with this car your learning curve is extremely steep. had you gone to rotary reliability and had it built there...they would have taken it to xs and it ALL would have been under warrantee.
unless you fully know what you are doing...there is no way to take the cheap route on this car. I speak from experience man. I could finish the tuning myself on my car after what Ive learned but you know what...my car is all the way in dallas at gotham getting tuned by steve kan....always deal with the people who know their ****. thats the best way. the pros know...they already went thru this steep learning curve many times.
j
how is your timing? any negative split anywhere?
as long as your housings are in good shape you should be able to replace all the seals and do it again. however you shouldnt have been out driving it in that condition. odds are that you could have scarred up your housings...and if you are shooting apex seals out your exhaust then you could damage your twins if you drive it in that condition....so quit driving the car and take it to a reputable shop in your area...rotary reliability and racing can do a compression check for cheap...go to them...nick will know what your problem is within ten seconds of hearing your machine. TOW IT.
no more driving k?
but that doesnt fix the reason why your blew your motor...you could have a bad injector...could have been bad fuel...a bad fuel filter...and a bunch of other things.
unless you are doing the install yourself its still going to cost you two grand.
I will giggle if its your map sensor hose.
to be completely honest, your knowledge of the car is limited and when you deal with this car your learning curve is extremely steep. had you gone to rotary reliability and had it built there...they would have taken it to xs and it ALL would have been under warrantee.
unless you fully know what you are doing...there is no way to take the cheap route on this car. I speak from experience man. I could finish the tuning myself on my car after what Ive learned but you know what...my car is all the way in dallas at gotham getting tuned by steve kan....always deal with the people who know their ****. thats the best way. the pros know...they already went thru this steep learning curve many times.
j
Last edited by artguy; 02-07-04 at 01:39 PM.
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02-07-04, 02:27 PM
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Before speculating anymore:
Compression check.
There are plenty of other conditions which can cause difficulty starting. But compression check first to check health.
Compression check.
There are plenty of other conditions which can cause difficulty starting. But compression check first to check health.
02-07-04, 03:27 PM
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Ok...we'll I'll have it towed to roary racing and reliability on Monday, compression check it and then take the next necessary step. Will check the map sensor hose right now....
02-07-04, 03:29 PM
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Go buy a compression tester and valve tool at Kragen and test it right now too. You don't need any special compression tester! Remove the shraeder valve and hold the check-valve in when testing.
02-07-04, 04:00 PM
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Clayne: Thanks for the info in a big way man! I am assuming shraeder valve and check-valve can be found in the manual? Any place with pics to show how its done or is it so simple that pics not necessary?
Map sensor was checked by tuner and he said it checked out. SO bummer =(.
Also, I do have newly installed (800 miles or so) 1300cc injectors. I heard they like to give out from time to time...if this is the problem what damage did it cause to the motor? Also, was running stock fuel pump and should have been getting 320-330 rwhp out of this set-up, could this have gone? Or wouldn't it not have been running a 10.6 A/F ratio if it was that? And this was a second gear pass...also did 2 third gear passes at redline (that was fun) and tuner said it was running still a little rich. So if it handled thrid gear redline I am assuming it could handle 2nd gear redline?!?
Will post compression results on this thread later this afternoon or tomorrow. And once again I must say this forum really helps amateurs like me to be able to own a car like this =)
Map sensor was checked by tuner and he said it checked out. SO bummer =(.
Also, I do have newly installed (800 miles or so) 1300cc injectors. I heard they like to give out from time to time...if this is the problem what damage did it cause to the motor? Also, was running stock fuel pump and should have been getting 320-330 rwhp out of this set-up, could this have gone? Or wouldn't it not have been running a 10.6 A/F ratio if it was that? And this was a second gear pass...also did 2 third gear passes at redline (that was fun) and tuner said it was running still a little rich. So if it handled thrid gear redline I am assuming it could handle 2nd gear redline?!?
Will post compression results on this thread later this afternoon or tomorrow. And once again I must say this forum really helps amateurs like me to be able to own a car like this =)
02-07-04, 04:29 PM
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Basically:
1. Go to Kragen.
2. Buy comp tester (20$) and valve stem tool (5$).
3. Remove shraeder valve from comp tester if it has one.
4. Place comp tester in spark plug hole.
5. Remove fuel pump relay.
6. Crank over car and watch the bouncing needle. You're looking for consistency in bounces here.
7. Check on front and rear.
1. Go to Kragen.
2. Buy comp tester (20$) and valve stem tool (5$).
3. Remove shraeder valve from comp tester if it has one.
4. Place comp tester in spark plug hole.
5. Remove fuel pump relay.
6. Crank over car and watch the bouncing needle. You're looking for consistency in bounces here.
7. Check on front and rear.
02-08-04, 03:42 PM
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Doing compression test today.
Car will not start, but can I get compression out of just turning it over as much as she goes?
What tool do I use to remove spark plugs?
What/where is the 'fuel pump relay'?
Please let me know ASAP.
Car will not start, but can I get compression out of just turning it over as much as she goes?
What tool do I use to remove spark plugs?
What/where is the 'fuel pump relay'?
Please let me know ASAP.
02-08-04, 03:51 PM
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if i were you i would read my original post in here. again.
you are not experienced enough to be doing what you are doing. the learning curve is steep. if you had the cash to blow on new housings etc..i would say to go ahead and keep it up...but at this point it sounds like you are already a few thousand in from trying to do it yourself. had you taken it to the pros as i said it would be done and running and you would probably be out driving it.
think about it.
j
you are not experienced enough to be doing what you are doing. the learning curve is steep. if you had the cash to blow on new housings etc..i would say to go ahead and keep it up...but at this point it sounds like you are already a few thousand in from trying to do it yourself. had you taken it to the pros as i said it would be done and running and you would probably be out driving it.
think about it.
j
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