Car not starting after build
05-03-14, 07:51 PM
#1
Car not starting after build
So i did a pretty complete single turbo build and now I can't get the car to start.
When it seems like the problem is no spark (Tested the spark as per FSM and there was no arc across the plug.)
The only mod to the ignition system is an HKS Twin Power which I do not believe to be an issue at all (explained below).
Pulling the plugs they are definitely wet with fuel. (Both front and rear plugs). This leads me to believe that the fuel delivery is fine, however might not actually be the case because the fuel system is modded quite significantly.
First thing I did was check all the fuses, and they were all okay. Then i got a multimeter and checked that there were no connection issues in any of the wires as a part of the ignition system and injectors. From the CAS to the ECU tothe igniter and to the coils, all the wires showed connectivity.
As I mentioned I am getting fuel in the engine however the fuel system is changed quite a bit so I don't know if the fuel is a result of proper injector flow or just fuel being dumped in for one reason or another.
I have ID1000 primaries and ID 2000 secondaries. As i mentioned there is connectivity between the injectors and the ecu plug. The fuel pump however is wired directly to the battery and currently i have a manual switch to turn it on/off (no relay yet).
So the pump never actually uses an ecu/ignition signal to turn on its all manual. Everything else is unplugged/deleted. (So fuel system is just a pump with a manual power source, injectors - which have connectivity with the ECU, and aftermarket lines, filter, cooler and P/R) Fuel system seems okay except like I mentioned, I couldn't tell you if its injecting fuel properly or in some erratic way. I just know theres fuel in the engine.
My wiring harness has been cleaned up significantly using a guide on this site.
I have all the emissions components deleted, omp, fuel temp, 02 sensor, purge control and all the other sequential solenoids and rats nest stuff. I have pretty much the bare essentials to run the car.
The ECU is a link G4 that uses the stock ECU shell and input plugs.
One last thing I wanted to test was using the stock ecu to check for spark to see if it's an ECU problem but i highly doubt that.
One last thing, I didn't notice the Tach bouncing at all when i was cranking it over so this sort of suggests that there is no CAS signal to the ecu but then I'm still seeing fuel (which is only injected if the ECU is receiving that signal so that either telling me that it IS receiving that signal but its just not getting to the tach, or it ISNT getting the signal and the fuel im seeing in the engine is another problem with the injectors. And I have never removed the cluster or tampered with wires behind the dash so..
Injectors are brand new so i can't see them being stuck. I don't know what to look for at this point. I checked all the grounds and they *seem* okay but i really don't know how to test.
Right now I don't know where to start looking so if someone could guide me in some direction that would be great
When it seems like the problem is no spark (Tested the spark as per FSM and there was no arc across the plug.)
The only mod to the ignition system is an HKS Twin Power which I do not believe to be an issue at all (explained below).
Pulling the plugs they are definitely wet with fuel. (Both front and rear plugs). This leads me to believe that the fuel delivery is fine, however might not actually be the case because the fuel system is modded quite significantly.
First thing I did was check all the fuses, and they were all okay. Then i got a multimeter and checked that there were no connection issues in any of the wires as a part of the ignition system and injectors. From the CAS to the ECU tothe igniter and to the coils, all the wires showed connectivity.
As I mentioned I am getting fuel in the engine however the fuel system is changed quite a bit so I don't know if the fuel is a result of proper injector flow or just fuel being dumped in for one reason or another.
I have ID1000 primaries and ID 2000 secondaries. As i mentioned there is connectivity between the injectors and the ecu plug. The fuel pump however is wired directly to the battery and currently i have a manual switch to turn it on/off (no relay yet).
So the pump never actually uses an ecu/ignition signal to turn on its all manual. Everything else is unplugged/deleted. (So fuel system is just a pump with a manual power source, injectors - which have connectivity with the ECU, and aftermarket lines, filter, cooler and P/R) Fuel system seems okay except like I mentioned, I couldn't tell you if its injecting fuel properly or in some erratic way. I just know theres fuel in the engine.
My wiring harness has been cleaned up significantly using a guide on this site.
I have all the emissions components deleted, omp, fuel temp, 02 sensor, purge control and all the other sequential solenoids and rats nest stuff. I have pretty much the bare essentials to run the car.
The ECU is a link G4 that uses the stock ECU shell and input plugs.
One last thing I wanted to test was using the stock ecu to check for spark to see if it's an ECU problem but i highly doubt that.
One last thing, I didn't notice the Tach bouncing at all when i was cranking it over so this sort of suggests that there is no CAS signal to the ecu but then I'm still seeing fuel (which is only injected if the ECU is receiving that signal so that either telling me that it IS receiving that signal but its just not getting to the tach, or it ISNT getting the signal and the fuel im seeing in the engine is another problem with the injectors. And I have never removed the cluster or tampered with wires behind the dash so..
Injectors are brand new so i can't see them being stuck. I don't know what to look for at this point. I checked all the grounds and they *seem* okay but i really don't know how to test.
Right now I don't know where to start looking so if someone could guide me in some direction that would be great
05-04-14, 11:09 AM
#2
RX-7 Bad Ass
iTrader: (55)
I think the ECU will inject fuel at a fixed rate during cranking, so seeing fuel doesn't necessarily mean you're getting a crank trigger signal.
I assume you have the ECU set up for the larger injectors? Also, if the injectors need it, do you have resistors wired in for the correct impedance?
Since it's an aftermarket ECU, you should be able to see some sort of tach signal on your laptop while cranking. No tach signal, that means you're not getting a trigger signal.
Make sure the ECU is also set up for the crank trigger, I know many aftermarket ECU's need funky settings to tell it how the crank trigger is set up. And, make sure the trigger wheel is on the main pulley and isn't bent or damaged.
Dale
I assume you have the ECU set up for the larger injectors? Also, if the injectors need it, do you have resistors wired in for the correct impedance?
Since it's an aftermarket ECU, you should be able to see some sort of tach signal on your laptop while cranking. No tach signal, that means you're not getting a trigger signal.
Make sure the ECU is also set up for the crank trigger, I know many aftermarket ECU's need funky settings to tell it how the crank trigger is set up. And, make sure the trigger wheel is on the main pulley and isn't bent or damaged.
Dale
05-04-14, 12:13 PM
#3
I think the ECU will inject fuel at a fixed rate during cranking, so seeing fuel doesn't necessarily mean you're getting a crank trigger signal.
Oh okay that makes sense. But the injectors would have to recieve a signal/ground from the ecu in order to inject anything at all though right? i guess the easy way to test this would be just to unplug one.
I assume you have the ECU set up for the larger injectors? Also, if the injectors need it, do you have resistors wired in for the correct impedance?
Yes the ECU is the exact same one RICE RACING had in his previous setup (same turbo + injectors as myself) and the injectors are the EV-14 style so im pretty sure that means no resistors needed, just a straight plug in.
Since it's an aftermarket ECU, you should be able to see some sort of tach signal on your laptop while cranking. No tach signal, that means you're not getting a trigger signal.
I will try to find out how to hook it up to the a laptop with the link software. I know its possible just don't know what i need.
Make sure the ECU is also set up for the crank trigger, I know many aftermarket ECU's need funky settings to tell it how the crank trigger is set up. And, make sure the trigger wheel is on the main pulley and isn't bent or damaged.
Yeah I checked the clearance and it's definitely between the factory spec (1mm - 2mm) And i'm 99.9% sure its setup for the stock crank trigger setup or I would have been told otherwise. Example is I was told i needed the AEM 3.5 bar map sensor so everything was disclosed when I got this ecu.
Dale
Oh okay that makes sense. But the injectors would have to recieve a signal/ground from the ecu in order to inject anything at all though right? i guess the easy way to test this would be just to unplug one.
I assume you have the ECU set up for the larger injectors? Also, if the injectors need it, do you have resistors wired in for the correct impedance?
Yes the ECU is the exact same one RICE RACING had in his previous setup (same turbo + injectors as myself) and the injectors are the EV-14 style so im pretty sure that means no resistors needed, just a straight plug in.
Since it's an aftermarket ECU, you should be able to see some sort of tach signal on your laptop while cranking. No tach signal, that means you're not getting a trigger signal.
I will try to find out how to hook it up to the a laptop with the link software. I know its possible just don't know what i need.
Make sure the ECU is also set up for the crank trigger, I know many aftermarket ECU's need funky settings to tell it how the crank trigger is set up. And, make sure the trigger wheel is on the main pulley and isn't bent or damaged.
Yeah I checked the clearance and it's definitely between the factory spec (1mm - 2mm) And i'm 99.9% sure its setup for the stock crank trigger setup or I would have been told otherwise. Example is I was told i needed the AEM 3.5 bar map sensor so everything was disclosed when I got this ecu.
Dale
One question i might have said before - how can you test a ground to see if its okay?
05-04-14, 01:45 PM
#4
RX-7 Bad Ass
iTrader: (55)
If you want to test a ground, just check for continuity with the chassis or with the negative battery terminal. You should see little to no resistance.
Dale
Dale
05-04-14, 02:19 PM
#5
Alright so i just did some more testing and got actual numbers. All of these tests were done by unplugging the respective plug and hooking one lead of the multimeter up to one pin of the plug and grounding the other lead to the chassis. I typically tested both pins of each plug and only one number really made sense for the most part so thats what i reported.
For crank angle sensors:
Grey:
-key off: no voltage
-key on: no voltage
-cranking: 0.3V
Grey:
-key off: no voltage
-key on: no voltage
-cranking: 0.3V
(Also checked the sensors themselves and they show about 1.1X kOhms through each which is exactly on par with FSM specs.)
I should also add, i might not have been using the multimeter right as these were the first things I tested. The number might be wrong but i can tell you 100% that there was a change in voltage when cranking started.
Igniter (using pin lettering from page G-16 in the FSM):
Pin B:
-key off: no voltage
-key on: 14.2X V
Pin E:
-key off: no voltage
-key on: 14.3X V
Pin G:
-key off: no voltage
-key on: 14.4X V
Plugs going into ignition coils (2 pin plugs, the white black and blue ones on the ignition harness):
Leading Coil Plug:
-key off: no voltage
-key on: 16.xx V
-Cranking: 13.xx V
Trailing 1 Coil Plug:
-key off: no voltage
-key on: 17.xx V
-Cranking: 13.xx V
Trailing 2 Coil Plug:
-key off: no voltage
-key on: 17.xx V
-Cranking: 14.xx V
Battery was fully charged at the time of testing.
I also tested the spark after all of this using the same ground i was for the tests (a clean 10mm bolt threaded into the firewall) and nothing.
This sort of tells me the ECU is not the problem and to check grounds. I am really bad with electrical stuff though so I'm not sure, is that a logical assessment?
Only thing i'm not sure about is the CAS signals. Yeah there is voltage coming through but compared to everything else it was significantly lower. Is that about where it should be or is that way off?
I also had the twin power connected for all these tests. Again though, just from what i can tell that doesn't seem to be a problem. (It was brand new and installed with the wiring harness right from HKS).
For crank angle sensors:
Grey:
-key off: no voltage
-key on: no voltage
-cranking: 0.3V
Grey:
-key off: no voltage
-key on: no voltage
-cranking: 0.3V
(Also checked the sensors themselves and they show about 1.1X kOhms through each which is exactly on par with FSM specs.)
I should also add, i might not have been using the multimeter right as these were the first things I tested. The number might be wrong but i can tell you 100% that there was a change in voltage when cranking started.
Igniter (using pin lettering from page G-16 in the FSM):
Pin B:
-key off: no voltage
-key on: 14.2X V
Pin E:
-key off: no voltage
-key on: 14.3X V
Pin G:
-key off: no voltage
-key on: 14.4X V
Plugs going into ignition coils (2 pin plugs, the white black and blue ones on the ignition harness):
Leading Coil Plug:
-key off: no voltage
-key on: 16.xx V
-Cranking: 13.xx V
Trailing 1 Coil Plug:
-key off: no voltage
-key on: 17.xx V
-Cranking: 13.xx V
Trailing 2 Coil Plug:
-key off: no voltage
-key on: 17.xx V
-Cranking: 14.xx V
Battery was fully charged at the time of testing.
I also tested the spark after all of this using the same ground i was for the tests (a clean 10mm bolt threaded into the firewall) and nothing.
This sort of tells me the ECU is not the problem and to check grounds. I am really bad with electrical stuff though so I'm not sure, is that a logical assessment?
Only thing i'm not sure about is the CAS signals. Yeah there is voltage coming through but compared to everything else it was significantly lower. Is that about where it should be or is that way off?
I also had the twin power connected for all these tests. Again though, just from what i can tell that doesn't seem to be a problem. (It was brand new and installed with the wiring harness right from HKS).
05-04-14, 02:28 PM
#6
(Sorry i'm pretty retarded at electrical stuff I just want to make sure i know what youre saying before i test and jump to conclusions.)
05-04-14, 11:07 PM
#7
So i did one more test that I found on this site somewhere. Apparently if you have the coil plug plugged in and put a pin through the plug just to jumper the wire grounding it, When cranking it should go 12v and then ground and show 0V when the igniter grounds the coil essentially creating the spark.
so i tested one of the coil plugs, both pins and even while cranking i never noticed a 0V. Even used a test light and still no flickering so its almost like the igniter isn't grounding the coil. Could this be because either the igniter or the coil harness itself isn't grounded properly?
so i tested one of the coil plugs, both pins and even while cranking i never noticed a 0V. Even used a test light and still no flickering so its almost like the igniter isn't grounding the coil. Could this be because either the igniter or the coil harness itself isn't grounded properly?
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