Speed of light

iTrader: (8)

It is not uncommon for 134 to leak out of an R12 system, due to its small molecule size. Since the ES-12 is cheap, just go ahead and put it into the system without any further work and see how it holds--it may not leak at all with the ES. No need to change the oil, it should be fine as long as it is dry.

R134a is the official designation of R134 and it is one and the same, some of us are just too lazy to type the "a" suffix. There is only one approved service fitting type for R134(a).

To give you some idea of the difference in leakage rate between R134 and the ES-12, one mechanic I know has a Ford Ranger that would only hold the R134 charge for about 2 days. He switched to ES12 and that charge lasted for 30 days. That's an impressive improvement in a system with a serious leak.

Good luck!

danny hahn

Got the leak diagnosis, small leak in evaporator, they applied air pressure and put it under water to show air bubbles. The bigger leak was on the low pressure line under the intercooler which rubbed against something.

I did a new post asking about a difference in available evaporator's from Mazda.

I was told by an a/c shop that they needed the evaporator on the car to check for leaks and that they needed high pressure towards 300psi.

Thanks for the excellent post Speed of Light.

So the reason to change adapters to 134 is availability of tools for the common man to recharge freon again?

Speed of light

iTrader: (8)

NO, not exactly. The new adaptors are intended to do two things: First, they are quick connects, which reduce loss of refrigerant to the atmosphere; and,

There are severaly different sizes which are used for different types and classes of refrigerants. This is to keep the service tech from cross connecting dedicated recovery equipment and mixing or contaminating refrigerants.

The QC's are much easier to use than the older screw on ports, especiall in tight places, so I just put them on and call it a day. Adaptors for the 134 ports are available everywhere.

As for your evaporator, both types seem to be functionally equivalent. This was probably a production/vendor issue and doesn't have anything to do with performance. I have both sets of lines here--ND and Mana--and will check the fit into the mana evaporator (on my car) since it is apart right now. So if you can sit tight for a day, then I should have an answer.

t-von

iTrader: (8)

Wow here in Texas you don't need a license to buy freeze 12. I recently just put some in my 91 vert. So far so good with cooling however, I do have a strange noise that comes from the blower area at times depending on my engine idle. To make it go away I would have to shut the A/C off then on again. The noise isn't comming from my compressor at all. I'm a little stumped.

rx slim

My A/C system was completely disassembled when I was doing all my work involving new radiator, intercooler, new vacuum lines, etc. . etc. .

Anyway, I bought this kit from es-refrigerants a while back, but have been afraid to mess with the system yet. First, I wanted to make sure the car was running good (which it is), now I'm just afraid to mess with the tabooed "A/C" system.

http://www.es-refrigerants.com/produ...it/details.asp

It only has one guage, not sure what to make of that.

Now. . .since my system has been totally open, I guess I should vacuum it. Do you guys think this unit would be okay?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Autom...9229QQtcZphoto

It also comes with a set of guages, but they're for r134. . .how would that affect things?

It's funny, I had the car in a million pieces and was okay with that. . .now I've got it running great, but am afraid to mess up the A/C system as I have no experience with it.

Somebody needs to set up a A/C recharge thread for dummies and put it in the FAQ section. They would be a GOD!

Callsign_Vega

iTrader: (3)

That vacuum pump doesn't say how much psi it will work at. CFM only is worthless without the PSI rating. If you had a totaly open system, you need some serious vacuum in the system to get it working properly when you put in the refridgerant.

rx slim

I sent him an e-mail to inquire more about the system. There are also the venturi type vacuum boxes, good for 28.3". . .I know it's not quite 29". . .but does anybody have any experience with these?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/R134A...QQcmdZViewItem

danny hahn

other more significant leak was found mid line on the fat line coming out of the evaporator due to something rubbing against it. I think that can be welded.

The evaporator has a trace leak, not much dye, though picked up by the sniffer. Replace? or should I use one of those snake oil additives? at $153 I'd easily replace.

thanks for checking that out Speed of Light.

M104-AMG

iTrader: (8)

IMHO, replace the evaporator. At working pressure, even though ES12a runs at a lower pressure, the leak will only get bigger, IMHO.

:-) neil

HDP

iTrader: (2)

Harbor Freight has the same item, but cheaper.

rx slim

thanks for lookin' out HDP. . .I think I'm going to guy the electric pump and a decent set of guages. I figure I can just about buy the equipment for the cost of one charge at an a/c place. Then I can do it myself forever, on all the cars. I heard back from the seller, he said he has sold quite a few, and has not had a problem with anybody not getting the vacuum they need. He said I could return it if it's won't work, but reassured me there would be no problem. There's no risk for me to give her a try. I'll let everybody know how the pump is.

danny hahn

Making the call not to replace the evaporator at this time and tig welding the line where something rubbed up against it.

I'm ordering a case of es-12, and going over to harbor freight to get the $10-15 vacuum device that pulls to 28Hg. And I have some R134 can fill devices.

the evaporator was taken off so the system is open. The system had dye and oil in it. Do I need to purchase any more oil or dye? or any other devices?

Speed of light

iTrader: (8)

A couple of things:

When TIG welding the line, I recommend you purge the line with argon first (from the torch) and immeadiately cap it. This will prevent oxidation inside of the line when welding.

Secondly, 28" Hg of vacuum isn't a lot of vacuum, so if you are going to use this method, the system must be dry. And vacuum it while everything is warm--this will help flash off any moisture. So pull the vac., close the valves and see if the vac holds near max for at least 10-15min. , if so then you can charge it with 2 cans (12oz) of ES. (There is no need to use r134.) You should be okay on oil, but you can add up to 2 oz, if you feel some has been lost, or if it would make you feel better. I assume you have PAG, the flourescent green colored stuff.

Note that if the evaporator wasn't leaking dye then it will not leak the ES due to the large size of the molecule. So I think you will be ok there. Good luck! Let us know how it works out.

danny hahn

Thanks for the pointers. I think its too late to argon the tube. Likely to add refrigerant this weekend, maybe as soon as wednesday if the package arrives. How do you know if you have enough oil? So when I add, take a guess at how much was loss?

BTW does it appear that the evaporators are interchangeable?

danny hahn

so I get this vacuum box at harbor freight and it needs an r134 connector.

Do I need to purchase the on sale now $30 manifold gauge set? or is there another source for the r134 connector to vacuum?

I have a connector for small freon cans to the r134 system with a fill gauge.

NewbernD

iTrader: (1)

I wound up pulling the vacuum box apart, getting the guts out and making a fitting to go from the vacuum block (inside the box) to an AC manifold. If you feel like making the drive up to Woodbine (25 mins or so), we can charge your AC one night this week..

danny hahn

Thanks! sounds like you have the hookup. I work evenings at the Nat's and O's. Sunday evening seems the most promising. Though I do have other r12 cars I was going to do this to.

Sounds like you took apart the box until you had a connection that worked. Did you use a manifold like this?

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/cta...emnumber=92649

DigDug

I'm trying to figure out how much ES-12 to use. According to their website, .38lb of ES-12a is equivalent to 1lb of R134a. My 93 system holds about 18oz of R134a, so that would come to about 7oz of ES-12a, but that seems like a ridiculously small quantity. Is their conversion just plain wrong?

Also, I don't understand the vacuum issue. I'm just planning to vent the R134a that's in there now, so the system will be open. After that, I want to draw a hard vacuum just for good measure. So if I do that, I should then charge with one can of I-12a, and then one can of ES-12a? And then I should only go by pressures, and completely ignore sight glass condition, correct?


Does most of the excess oil accumulate in the dryer? I thought it would be scattered around everywhere in the system.

NewbernD

iTrader: (1)

That is the exact manifold that I have.. and I used several other fittings to make a connection between the two.

Sunday evening might be okay.. We should probably continue on PMs if you want to come by.

NewbernD

iTrader: (1)

You have an R1, right? I know.. it seems like a tiny amount. I believe the factory installed AC units hold more than 18 oz, so be careful who you compare with. Instead of going by weight, I thought you could also charge by pressure too, no? Should be somewhere around 30-35 lbs on the low side.


When charging with ES, they tell you not to fill right after a hard vacuum.. You will end up overcharging. Their recommendation: Pull a deep vacuum (to eliminate the moisture), charge enough to bring it back to a few psi. Turn the car off and let it sit for a minute. Vent whatever pressure is in the system on both the high and low sides. Now you should have a 0 psi system with 0 air in it. Charge by pressure.

Yep. Most winds up in there unless you have a leak.. then it will fall out of suspension as it escapes from the leak.

For giggles, I picked up some of these. Haven't used one yet but it looks to be a very simple gauge of the oil in the system without pulling everything apart.

DigDug

I have that exact manifold as well. I used to have a higher-end set that cost much more, but this $30 one works just fine. I'm a big fan of the screw-down connectors, especially where our service ports are located.

I'm surprised the 1/2" ACME fitting on the manifold service hose won't connect to that HF vacuum pump (especially since it says it has a 1/2" ACME fitting). This is the one you're talking about, right?

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/cta...emnumber=92475

I have a Robinair air-powered pump, and the service hose connects up without any adapters. Got it for about $50 at the local Fairfax Auto Parts.

http://www.tequipment.net/Robinair34970.asp

Of course air-powered vacuum pumps take forever and run the compressor constantly, so I bought an electric pump a while back.

DigDug

I originally had a hard time figuring out exactly how much mine holds, but after some trial and error, I found that 18oz got the pressures right. Of course, I also had excessive oil in the system, and I'm guessing that displaced some of the refrigerant. I'm guessing I have around 4-6oz too much oil in there.


So draw a hard vacuum, then charge with some ES-12a to get to positive pressure, then vent to zero? And then charge with the specified amount of ES-12a from there? That makes sense.

But what about the recommendation to use a can of I-12a from a hard vacuum, then add ES-12a to fill it? I'm getting confused with this part.


Cool, I'll dump it out and hopefully the oil level will be good then.


I saw those oil testers too. I'm going to order some with the refrigerant and see how it works.

NewbernD

iTrader: (1)

I bought one with a red enclosure a few years ago.. whatever fitting that it came with didn't fit what I had at the time.. so now it has a barbed fitting on it. But it works.

It's still on my list to scavenge a pump from a refrigerator to use as a vacuum pump. The venturi pump that I have takes maybe 5 minutes to pull all the way down. Not bad, but it's loud and its not as deep as it could be.. but with ES it doesn't really need to be I guess.

NewbernD

iTrader: (1)

No more sticker under the hood? Should be in the FSM. I just found an old post with my capacity in it. 12.2 oz of R12.

What's I-12a? The industrial product? It doesn't really matter. The hydrocarbon doesn't turn acidic when it combines with the moisture in the air. You could really fill it without pulling a vacuum if you wanted to.

danny hahn

Yes that's the one. what I meant by r134 connectors are quick connects.

It may take me a few more days to get the car back together. Here's what happened to the low pressure line: the welder at the machine shop mig welded it because unknown to us, his tig welder was broken. It didn't work, and it looked bad. I'm doubtful of a successful repair of the pipe in the end, but we are going to try to clean it up and tig it.

What working pressure do I need to test out at? about 150psi?

Called Ray and the part for the nippodenso tube with the low pressure port is $165. the nippodenso components are about 3 times the cost of the mana.

BTW, Ray said none of the Mana and nippodenso are components will fit each other. To interchange them one would have to braze on the old fittings or do a hose modification. He added someone in New Orleans did it a few years back. the diameter of the nippodenso threads were 22mm and 14mm.