the_glass_man

iTrader: (2)

Ah, just another reason not to move or live in the Peoples Republic of California. Must be neat to have to mess with your $hit all the time have to pay lots of money for BS reasons and watch your octane ratings go down as the price goes up!!!
I would have went with the N-Tech Cat myself.
Oh and I don't have any problems passing inspection (no emissions) with my DP, MP, Catback, IC, etc...
Hmm, maybe I'll stay in New York for a few more years.

Lunar7

Just thought you might find it interesting that I tested my car twice on the same day just minutes apart with my car never leaving the dyno or the engine bieng shut off and got very different results each time.

CA Emissions Specs for 1994 RX-7 (LA County), for year 2002:

Test ......RPM......%CO2.....%O2.....HC(ppm).....%CO ......NO(ppm)

15 mph..----........----..........---.......88...............0.52 .........1006
25 mph..----........----..........---.......53...............0.50 ..........866

Pre Test Results, 3:02 P.M. 8/8/2002 @ 220 def F

15 mph..1735......14.5........0.04.......39.......... .... 0.25...........29 PASS
25 mph..1957......14.6........0.00.......32.......... .... 0.15...........43 PASS

Real Test Results, 3:44 P.M. 8/8/2002 @ 200 def F

15 mph..1813......14.15.......0.58.......26.......... .... 0.02...........501 PASS
25 mph..2003......14.2.........0.60.......25......... ..... 0.02...........341 PASS

Do you find it interesting how much variance there is?

The only reason for the large elapsed time between tests is because the computer froze after my second pull (first attempt at the real test following the pre-test).

Then the 3rd pull (2nd attempt at a real test) was aborted because the tech thought my car was getting to hot.
He also commented the test was taking too long to complete.
I guess my emissions were so low or varying so much that the machine was trying to average the measurements over a longer dyno run time.

The tech set up the big fan in front of my car and turned on my AC to drop the temps down to 200 from 220.
Then he did the 4th pull and completed the Real Test.

I guess my point is that variations like this make it difficult to compare the performance of changing equipment like a CAT or DP.
I changed nothing and got very different results.

I think you should try a pre-test at a lower RPM @ 25MPH.
You are about 900 RPM higher than me and that could be why you are not passing.

You can pre-test at your choice of shop.
If you pass a pre-test just take the results with you to the test only shop and have them duplicate the conditions so you can pass in front of them as well.

If I had to bet on it I'd say you would probably Pass with your existing stock cat at a lower RPM @ 25 MPH.
Try 1900 RPM like my 25 MPH run.
Your 15 MPH run was at 1900 RPM and you passed there.

Look how close my 15 & 25 MPH RPM's are.
Obviously a gear change was involved that your tech was too lazy to make.

I really hate to see another FD owner get screwed with a $1300 repair bill just to pass smog.

wstrohm

Lunar7,

I appreciate your comments. My car actually did get one (pre)test at 25 mph in 3rd gear at 2049 rpm. The HC was 140 ppm, compared to the other tests of 83 and 94 ppm at 2900+ rpm in 2nd gear. I'm surprised to see your CO and NO numbers vary that much, given the closeness of your tests. Your car looks about like mine did back in 2000.

BTW, I'm surprised that turning on the A/C lowered temps. I would think that the added power required to drive the A/C compressor would load the engine, forcing it to generate more hp and more waste heat. Certainly the big fan helps, though.

---- Bill

Lunar7

Was this test done with the stock cat or the Bonez cat?

Did you mean HC at 83 & 49 (not 94) for the first two tests?

It looks like you just barely failed on CO with the stock cat.
With less RPM you should have squeeked by.

The Bonez however dose not look like it even has a chance with the HC bieng so high.
I find that very interesting.

I can see your reasoning for wanting a new stock cat.
All you need is a slight improvement over your existing stock cat and you would be in the clear.

As I am now in the market for a High Flow Cat, would you mind telling me if you felt any kind of a power gain with the Bonez cat?

If I am going to become a gross poluter I at least want more power in return.

wstrohm

Lunar7,

The original failure was on the stock system on CO @ 25 mph. At that time, the HC at 25 mph was 49 (4 ppm within spec limit). All subsequent tests have been made with the Bonez DP/cat. 2nd test using Bonez' installation instructions: HC = 83 @ 25 mph. 3rd test (after adding the stock check valve back in): HC = 140, but this was done in third gear at 2049 rpm by a different smog shop, all other tests were run in 2nd gear. 4th test after replacing spark plugs: HC = 94 ppm.

I have since discovered that idle vacuum is 14 in Hg @ 700 rpm and 15 in Hg @ 1000 rpm (indicated). You may have seen my other thread question about idle vacuum. The responses indicate that my car may have a vacuum leak. If so, the emissions may be at least partially caused by that. I have been made aware that this engine consists mainly of two rotors and 60 vacuum hoses (very few of which are visible), so it seems likely there could be a problem.

The car feels lively, but it always did, and I cannot say for certain there was a noticeable power gain. It just feels really "healthy." Unlike other reports on this setup, I cannot now "hear the turbos." The car is still pretty quiet. At the rear of the car the note is a little louder, but not much. I have noticed that the passenger compartment gets warmer than before. I thought it would be cooler because of the DP replacing the pre-cat, but no. Probably because there is no large shield around the Bonez, unlike the stock cat.

---- Bill

rotary-tt

When I first bought my FD, I could not get it to pass emissions no matter what. Stock cat and precat, new plugs, new temp sensor, new air pump hoses. HC was over 1000. I almost sold it before I took it to Precision Tune as a last resort. They found 2 hoses off under the intake by spraying carb cleaner at each connection. The ones which were off caused the motor to choke and stall spraying the cleaner. Put the 2 hoses back on and passed emissions w/o any problems. Since then I run a downpipe and a heated O2, still pass easily. The hoses which can cause this are listed in the diagnosis secion of the shop manual.

wstrohm

rotary-tt,

Thank you for the information. I am considering the infamous Vacuum hose R&R, based on my marginal idle vacuum reading and the general consensus among RX-7 gearheads on the Net that it will be needed sooner or later. I've downloaded Rob Robinette's and Dave Disney's articles on this task, and I'm about to begin collecting the bits and pieces for that job.

Our car which at its first smog test in 1996 was a "gross polluter" was apparently screwed up at the factory; we are the original owners, and crossed vacuum lines & pinched solenoid wire could not have happened anywhere else! Fortunately that was taken care of under warranty. Unfortunately, the OEM hoses are apparently not rotary-rated for long life, and we are now out of warranty (the car too).

---- Bill

rotary-tt

My hoses are still good but they tend to pop off without tie wraps. I was told not to go to silicon hoses since they can close off under vacuum. Pettit sells Goodyear vacuum hose which won't collapse. The odds are that if you are tuned up and still have all the emissions equipment, it is a vacuum hose under the intake. I could not even get close to passing emissions until I reconnected the 2 hoses under the intake which came loose.

While you under the intake, you should pull together all the threads here on replacing your fuel pulsation dampner(causes the famous FD fires) and sending your injectors to RC Engineering. I would also clean up the electrical connections to the fuel injection. I also read there there is a valve for purge control which might be good to replace.

wstrohm

rotary-tt,

I've read a lot of stuff on this job, but it probably won't make much difference, since my wife wants to have the vacuum hose replacement done by a dealer. Ron Orr at Irvine Mazda really does know his stuff, it seems; if I can get him to agree to do this miserable job, all our vacuum hoses are about to be replaced with Viton. I ordered 50 feet of 4 mm ID/6 mm OD and 20 feet of 6 mm ID/8 mm OD from McMaster-Carr. Total cost including shipping was $197. Having some trouble finding the little hose clamps; I want metal like the OEM clips rather than nylon or tie wraps, need about 120 of those.

Thanks for the info about "fuel pulsation dampener;" have not read about "famous FD fires." I'll do a search.

---- Bill

Lunar7

Viton, thats the right way to do a hose job.

Please let me know where you find the metal clamps.
I am trying to aquire those myself.

Thanks

hawaii rx-7

all i can say is...

wstrohm

Aloha... ?????

Is that for me, the cat converter(s) in the pic, or the requirements for emission controls? Looks like it's next to a barbecue... any significance?

What's the story behind the finger?

---- Bill

wstrohm

Well, the new stock cat is hanging under the car on its studs. It didn't come with nuts, and they are special order at $5.46 each! Couldn't find #12 - 1.5 mm nuts even at specialty hardware stores. Tomorrow the nuts should come in and I can bolt this whizzer together.

Received a partial shipment of the Viton tubing (6 mm ID, 8 mm OD), and it won't work. The wall thickness is too thin, and somewhere between 5 and 7 inches of vacuum collapses the hose. Don't have the 4 mm ID, 6mm OD hose yet, but I doubt if it will work either. Does anyone know where I can buy Viton hose that will not collapse under deceleration vacuum (about 25" Hg)??

Thanks! ---- Bill

Lunar7

Are you serious?
I have never heard of that problem.

Have you tried your test on other types of hoses?
How did stock or silicone hose compare in your test?

I am very curious about this.
It is hard to believe Viton would be worse than stock or silicone.

rotary-tt

The stock hoses are actually very good. They just tend to pop off, hence the need for a tie wrap job. Some types of silicon will get mushy and you have to watch the wall thickness. Unless someone can confirm silicon or viton does not deteriorate or collapse, I'll stick with stock-type Goodyear hose recommended by Pettit. My stock hoses are still plyable after all these years.

rynberg

from MaxCooper's website:

Mike Putnam has put together some excellent information on tubing materials that I suggest you read before deciding on silicone. The URL for the page with links to the documents is http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/G...echnical.html.

I tried some thin-walled Viton tubing to see if it would work in the interest of saving money. However, I quickly concluded that it was too thin and would kink too easily or get sucked shut under vacuum as it heated up. I tried small stainless steel springs to keep the tubing open, but it was not possible to select a spring with right diameter to fit easily into the tubing but not enter the nipples I was connecting the tubing to. The bottom line is that I concur with Mike's sizing recommendations -- thinner, cheaper tubing just does not work.

Also, rotary-tt:

Mike Putnam posted some information to the RX-7 list about Fluorine Rubber tubing that makes it seem like a good choice. Its main advantage over silicone is the abrasion and kink resistance. Here is some additional information:

(Sold under various trade names such as Viton, Fluran, etc.
I think that Pettit sells Good Year's version of this tubing)
Operating temp -25 F to 400 F
Resistant to oil grease and solvents
Durometer Shore A hardness 60
kink resistance - good
abrasion and cut resistance - good
Spring clamps can be used for securing. ($0.20/clamp at Home Depot)
Comes only in black
Not available at most auto supply stores/catalogs
Cost (from tubing/hose supply catalog) $1.44/ft

rynberg

Wstrohm:

Here's the sizes of Viton Mike Putnam used to good success:

Best -Viton tubing
30 feet of 1/8" ID 1/8" wall thickness (Shore 60A Durometer hardness, 1/8" (3.2mm) wall is very
thick so the softer Viton is easier to stretch over the fittings)
10 feet of 1/4"ID,1/8"wall thickness (Shore 75A Durometer hardness)
Source: McMaster-Carr < http://www.mcmaster.com/pdf/106/0075.pdf>
Total Tubing Cost $306.00
Use wide-band spring steel hose clamps
Source: Home Depot $0.40 each

Note that he got the 3.2 mm thick walls, not 2mm.

GoRacer

iTrader: (2)

Is this off topic? ...no go back a page or two.

So anyhow, the cop pulls me over shining his brites so I flip my mirrors, walks up to me and ask for my paperwork and I say "sure, as soon as you take the flashlight off my eyes". He moves the flash light a 1/4 inch and asks: "what seems to be the problem with your registration". I tell him it is paid, just haven't been able to smog it yet. He says: "we'll see about that". He checks, then returns and gives me back my reg & lic and tells me to drive safley.

Stop worryinging about getting smoged before the deadline. Yes, it sucks getting pulled over but just think how good it feels knowing you just got away with a ticket

Lunar7

Rynberg,

Great Info.

Thank You

wstrohm

Lunar7 and rynberg,

Thanks for your responses. There is nothing wrong with Viton as a material; in fact IMHO it is the best choice. I have read Max Cooper's and Mike Putnam's articles (also Rob Robinette's and Dave Disney's) and I picked Viton on the basis of the hot oil soak tests. My problem was that in looking for Viton on the Net, I found it only at McMaster-Carr, and since it was available in only 1 mm wall thickness that's what I bought. Stupid of me, really. Vacuum hose needs to be able to withstand at least 25 in Hg vacuum without collapsing, and the wall thickness of 1 mm is insufficient. I will try another search; I have no idea where Mr. Putnam got his 1/8" ID, 1/8" wall thickness stuff. I should have been suspicious when the McMaster-Carr stuff was less expensive. This 1 mm thick Viton hose does withstand 15 psi positive pressure without turning into a balloon, so at least if I do find the 1/8" stuff, I won't have to worry about boost.

GoRacer,

I am keeping in mind that the temporary smog test waiver is in effect. Still hoping to make it before Sept. 12; this afternoon I should be able to retest with new stock converter/ Bonez downpipe & see what happens. Thanks for the war story!

rynberg

wstrohm:

To get the thicker walled tubing, you need to purchase the english unit tubing. If you have the McMaster book, it's page 76 at the bottom. Otherwise go that link in Mike Putnam's article and you will see the english unit tubing above the metric. Get 1/4-inch (which is very close to 6mm) in the 1/8-inch thickness, not 1/16". You will notice that this tubing will cost $270 for 30 feet. Pricy, but I'm not doing the hose job twice....

cool_koo

In Ontario we have this emissions bull#### too. I drove my car from my driveway to the emissions center and failed. I drove around for like an hour and went again and I passed on the same machine. Maybe you should do the same...

wstrohm

rynberg,

I found it! Pricey for sure, but I think I'll get the 1/8" and 1/4" inch stuff in the 1/8" wall thidkness.

Everyone,

Our car finally passed, with a new Mazda stock converter. Thought you would like to see the difference between the last two tests. Both were tested at the same location on the same machine, and for both tests the engine was fully warmed up, had a new O2 sensor, new plugs, and the Bonez DP:

CA Emissions Specs for 1994 RX-7 (Orange County), for year 2002:

Test ......RPM......%CO2.....%O2.....HC(ppm).....%CO ......NO(ppm)

15 mph..----........----..........---.......88...............0.52 .........1006
25 mph..----........----..........---.......53...............0.50 ..........866

On 8/09/02 with new Bonez cat:
15 mph..1814......14.8........0.4.......73........... ... 0.03...........22 PASS
25 mph..2908......15.0........0.0......94*........... .. 0.20............44 *FAIL

On 8/14/02 with new Mazda stock cat:

15 mph..2910......14.7........0.2.......14........... ... 0.08............60 PASS
25 mph..2862......14.8........0.0.......34........... ... 0.26............16 PASS

I still believe there is an underlying problem, but at least now the pressure is off us, and a vacuum hose job can be done anytime in the next two years.

Now to see if RP will take back the Bonez cat and issue me a refund!

---- Bill

grampa

I'm glad to hear this. I failed with high HC with the *%#@ bonez @30mph. Now if I can just get time to put on the new Tri-Point cat and try the test again.
The Tri-Point is almost as large as the stock cat, weighs less and is 1/3 the cost of the Mazda cat.
When I change it out I intend to take db readings between the bonez and Tri-Point. I also intend to take photos and weights of the stock, bonez and Tri-Point.
If I feel ambitious I'll also take db readings of the OEM cat. The rest of my system is DP and M2 dual catback.
I will either sell the bonez or cut it and put a borla XR-1 in it (and of course measure the db).

rynberg

This has been a good post. I was going to go with the Bonez hi-flow when the time came. I think I will reconsider that choice and go with the tri-point or N-tech cat.