mitchelrl

Before I go into anything, I read the FAQ's and everything first. I just have a few questions and comparisons.

Let me introduce myself, my name is Mitchel and I'm from Seattle.

My 325i was totalled a week ago and I'm thinking about replacing it with an 97+ M3 or a 3rd generation RX7.

I understand these are 2 completely different cars. I've ridden in M3's extensively, modified and stock, street and track (PIR).

I guess I'm really just wanting some input on where the RX7 picks up where the E36 M3 lacks. I know they're about 600 pounds lighter, but thats about the extent of my knowledge of RX7's.

They're incredible cars and I know I'd be happy with either, which makes this a pita of a decision.

Any input would be greatly appreciated.

SiKoPaThX

iTrader: (2)

Tell us how it was totaled. Then maybe we'll lend you our secrets matey!

JONSKI

Find a 3rd gen and test drive it.

I think you miss the quality interior and reliability of a Bimmer.

twinturboteddy

I second that.

Duncan

I third that.

The FD is a great car, but unless you have something else to drive, I would not recommend it. Between the time it spends in the shop, both planned and unplanned, and the practicality issues, I would never recommend it as an only car.

But if you can get over that and can afford to the upkeep and rapair costs, I can't think of anything more lovely

RX7UP

Hmmmnnnnn?................ RX7, M3, RX7, M3, RX7, M3, RX7, M3, RX7..................... Hmmmmnnnn RX7.......... Respect, Speed, Upgrades, Originality,................. RX7! Hmmmmmmmmmnnnnnnnn M3....................... I see one every day, Tight *** yuppie driving one,..................... Naaaaaaahhhh................. Definitely The RX7!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

RX7UP

AREITU

Historically, I've noticed that BMW people tend to prefer Supras. Not sure why, but I think it's the part where they're dead reliable up to horrific amounts of horsepower, big, comfy and GT-like. Kinda like the M3. The E36 M3 seems to be much more forgiving and it's definitely more reliable once you get past those normal small problems, like the water pump, timing belt, etc.

Porsche people tend towards RX7s. Razor sharp, potential reliability problems, expensive upkeep, sex on four wheels, odd engine note.

mitchelrl

long story short, I drove to the J&M down in Seattle on friday night. By the end of the night, I was in no condition to drive. So naturally, I gave up my keys to a sober friend and had him follow me and my roomate kyle in his 98 M3 home to Renton, W.A.

Coming on to I-90, there's this nice little 25 mph turn, Kyle (My roomate) takes it sideways like always, and Chris, the guy driving my car, tries to follow suit, except tries it faster than Kyle. Well, Chris encountered something that he didn't know how to cope with (Oversteer) and overcorrected severely and slammed my car into a cement barrier.

which resulted in the damage in the picture below, rear frame tubing was crushed, trunk was caved in.

shockingly enough, it still drove perfectly. On the way to the body shop a few days later, I even managed to get a kill on a mustang GT on a roundabout onramp (beat 4.6 Auto's from a dead stop too when my car was in it's prime).

Here WAS my car in all of it's "majesty" before the wreck.

and




A friend of a friend's parents are selling their 95 Red on Black RX7 with 80,000 miles on it for about 10,000$ I hear, I'm waiting to hear back from them. They just want it out of their garage apparently. Always been garaged, have all of the service records and it is bone stock.

I'm buying an Audi this weekend, so that will cover my daily driver. With any car you plan on modding, you want to have a beater that will keep you out of tickets and racking up miles on your baby.

One reason I like RX7's is the fact that they're too far and few, which is good. Another one, they're simply much more cheaper to mod than BMW's. A stage 2 turbo for an E36 M3 will cost you 10,000$ PLUS LABOR! which is absolutely ridiculous.

Granted RX7's have their own problems, BMW's, especially E36's are problematic as well. Vanos (Similar to Vtec except it's constantly adjusting and optimizing) will go at 130kish miles, water pump with plastic impellers, fuel starvation issues when tracking the car, cheap plastic interior pieces, blah blah blah, the list goes on and on.


This is a real headbanger of a decision. Both cars are nostalgic to me, both haul ***, both have problems and both will tear up Portland International Raceway.

any other suggestions would be great, I know what the lot of you would say, more or less I'm just wondering why.

ijneb

If your getting an audi as a daily driver, and wont be cutting into your food/clothing fund with the insurance/payments on the 7/audi, get the 7 over the BMW.

mitchelrl

it's a 94 Audi 90s, I'm going down to Yakima, WA to pick it up tomorrow from my friends car lot, they owe me some favors, so they're practically giving it to me.

I have a perfect driving record, insurance only costs me 500$ every 6 months on the Audi. RX7 of a similar year would probobly be 20-30 more a month probobly.

skunks

if you can afford it, id go with the M3 unless you can and like to work on your own car (you have to be fairly mechanically inclined) and are willing to accept that an fd might take about 1-3k each year just in maintance alone and might be down for quite a while or might not work perfectly for... well forever . An fd is more of a toy and your not going to beable to use it to transport more then 1 person (even at that, its fairly unconfortable for the passenger, i hate sitting in the passenger seat!) since it sounds like your using it mainly for a toy, an fd would be a good canidate. espeically becuase you found a fairly bone stock cheap one

on the track, anything which is 600lbs lighter will handle a lot better. considering you can weight reduction it quite a bit more and up the hp, it should be a killer on the track, at least quite a bit faster then a m3 e36 i would imagine. btw, if you want turbo upgrade with fuel and ecu mods, it will run you damn near 10k with a new turbo for a fd as well and might cost you much more if you accidently pop a few engines along the way (tuning is a bitch...)


how much money do you have? you seem like your just rolling in dough as you just picked up an audi and have more then enough left over for a FD or M3. if this is the case, like i said above, i'd pick up a M3 and slap a turbo on it as well as a new engine.

rhscare

OK I was an M3 guy for most of my "car life" and let me tell you if you go with the M, you dont want a 97+. If you plan on doing ANY tuning at all you need to stick to a 95. 95 was OBD1 and 96+ switched to OBD II. You will waste endless dollars in tuning. This could be a huge discussion in itself.

However the reason I went from an M3 is mainly cost, as far as basic parts, and the scene. As was said before you will see an M almost daily, and to the untrained eye, every 325 out there gets the same looks. From what I have found, RX-7 owners are very proud, but in a different way then the M people. M's tend to feel they are very superior to everyone else in the car world, and the people tend to be a little on the preppy side. The E36's tend to attract alot of rich kids, and that was a turn off to me. Dont get me wrong, the ricey Fast and Furious world makes me sick, but to me, the 7 has some how eluded both of these groups...for the most part. I kind of picture the 7 in a class of its own. Dont get me wrong, the E36 is an AMAZING car. But after spending some time researching the 7, the E36 just doesnt have that WOW factor. Its really a matter of taste in my opinion.

rhscare

Oh by the way you dont need a turbo to make some nice power in an E36...well the 95 at least. This kit is insane. Will put you right at 300 Naturaly Aspirated horses for $2,200. Not to shabby.

http://www.turnermotorsport.com/html...E36M3HFMCAMKIT

SleepR1

I have both an E36 M3/4-door and a heavily modded '93 R1--which is for sale https://www.rx7club.com/showthread.php?t=363216

In a speed contest, my FD has 160 rwhp advantage to my M3 (which has a Dinan exhaust and intake), so it's no contest. My modded FD brakes, handles, steers better than the M3 in a road racing environment. Although my FD is trickier to drive quickly on track, especially in the wet, there isn't a sports car out there with 350+ rwhp and only 2750 lbs of weight.

On the flipside. The M3 gets the nod for daily driving comfort, utility, and solid German reliability. 90% of the time I drive the M3, and save the FD for track or for spirited runs down the twisty southern Indiana roads.

It really depends on what you're looking for. My FD is so modded, that you'll probably want a stock FD to start with. My car is for enthusiasts already looking for a well-sorted heavily modded car.

Good luck!

apex_sideway

You sound like someone who is ready to own a rx7; you'd make a great member to the club

DaleClark

iTrader: (55)

Really, the FD isn't as big of a reliability problem as people make it out to be. The closer to you stay to stock, the more reliable it's gonna be as well.

If you want a fun car that's BUILT for the track, the FD is it. It's a helluva track car.

BTW, they only made exactly 500 95 RX-7's in the US. $10,000 for a clean '95 is a STEAL - buy that NOW. $10k usually gets you a 150,000 mile beater '93.

The biggest advice I can give is READ. Hit up Scuderiaciriani.com and read it top to bottom and front to back. If you haven't done much work on cars in the past, teach yourself how to. They're very rewarding cars to turn wrenches on, and everything is VERY heavily documented.

Dale

alberto_mg

Your car does not look totalled at all, but...

I sold my 95-325is with a full list of mods for my 93 RX7. I got sick of the high cost and frequent maintenance of the BMW. I bought the BMW with 20k miles and sold it with 95k or so loosing ~$12 in value over 3 years.

Living in NY, the BMW was a decent compromise between sporty driving and an all season car when equipped with snow tires. Even with a full suspension it rides better than the 7 on the street in terms of comfort and quietness in the cabin. It was fun to drive on the street (after modding) as it is easy to drive and easy to control. Hanging the tail out on the BMW was a bit easier than the 7.

However, I hated the BMW on track (Lime Rock). It was big, heavy, the steering is slow and numb compared to the 7 (or a Miata even). I did not enjoy driving it on track at all.

Maintenance was a bitch on the BMW too. Lots of special tools were needed and BMW labor is more expensive than RX7 labor prices. Besides the plastic water pump, plastic radiator, I also had 4 coils go (one at a time), the ECU went out on me too, the tie rods needed to be replaced twice, the rear Bilstein's kept blowing (had Eibach springs), had to replace a bunch of electrical **** - window switches, brake lights etc. It was in the shop every 3-6 months or so for something.

The RX7 is easier to work on - with the exception of the vacuum system and I don't need any special tools.

Overall, I enjoy driving and working on my 7, but I like lightweight, quick reacting cars. The only frustrating thing is that it can be hard to get it in to the mechanic when something breaks as most rotary specialists are usually booked up.

Thats my thoughts. Just make sure you can afford the maintenance b4 you buy it. Drive one and make your own decision. Don't base it just on looks and scarcity.

LAracer

Sounds to me like you'd be able to take care of either car. Some advice though: decide which car you want first, and then search the country for the best one that you can afford - don't buy the RX-7 just because there's one for sale locally. Unless you're very lucky, you'll have to search for a while to find a nice one. Sure the '95 for $10k sounds good, but with 80k miles, the engine is about ready to go. This may be to your advantage if you're going to seriously upgrade it anyway, and $10k is probably about right for an FD with a blown motor that is mint in all other regards. Still, look around, test drive a few RX-7s before you buy one. If nothing else, it will make you feel better about the one you choose.

Good luck.

RX 4 Speed

Go with the FD... I'm a relatively new owner... but have started to turn wrenches myself, with the help of websites like Robinette and Scuder's, manuals, good friends, and of course, folks from this forum. It's very rewarding... I keep my mods at the basic 3 rule, and have had no problems up to date. Driving it on the street, not even on the track, puts a wide, wide smile to my face... everytime.

mitchelrl

If I get an M3, I'm not going after Dado's "Uber Status". I'll be content with 300 N/A HP. The only real difference between obd-1 and obd-2 on bmw's is the intake manifold and the additional O2 sensor in the OBD-2 car. Just by swapping in an OBD-1 M50 intake manifold into an OBD-2 BMW 3 series, it adds about 20-25 HP (not to the wheels). My roomate has a 98 M3 thats tastefully modded, and it walks away from his 95 M3 with a 3.2 obd-1 swap.

Same thing goes for the RX7. I'd prefer to keep the stock twins on it and just upgrade the intercooler, throw some exhaust and high flow cat and downpipe on it and probobly a new intake. and if that isn't enough, get some kind of engine management upgrade. Possibly some weight reduction, but I won't do a carbon fiber hood unless it's painted to match the body color. I like being discrete as possible.

I just want something I can rage on the highway with and have some fun at the drag strip and track with.

I've decided that I'm going to need to get both now.

gfelber

Hi Mitchel,

I've owned 17 cars including BMW's, 2 3rd gen Rx-7s, 300Zs, and two 911s as daily drivers and track cars, so I may be able to provide some assistance (Currently I've a 400+ RWHP single turbo 3rd gen track monster/occasional daily, a track only Spec Miata and an X5 4.4i).

First and foremost, buying cars is more emotional than rational, but let me provide some emotional and rational observations of my own.

Let's stratify into two categories- advantages/disadvantages.

1. Performance
A stock 3rd gen will walk a stock E36 M3 at the drag strip, autocross, and road racing events given driver's of equal capability. Most modified 3rd gens will walk most modified e36s, but, as you probably know, more money wins. The e36 can bite you on the track as snap oversteer can be very difficult to catch. The 3rd gen is more predictable here and, in general, much easier to catch in most situations. The staging of the sequential turbochargers can be a handful when you’ve the car at the threshold of traction in a turn and need more power after the apex, but this effect is predictable in most situations. Braking is about equal. The 7 stops a bit shorter due to lower mass, but the E36 does and admirable job. Due to the 7s higher speed at track events, you’ll need to upgrade your front brakes to mitigate fade. Not so much the M’eras ducint and more aggressive pads usually do the trick (until you supercharge it ).
Advantage FD3S

Maintenance Costs:
True, maintenance is expensive for BMWs (except for the first 3 years on a new one), but this pales in comparison to what you'll spend on the exponentially depreciating 3rd gen -even if you do it yourself like I do.
Advantage M3.

Reliability:
Pack 60+ vacuum lines, a finicky sequential turbo system, fragile apex seals and tons of heat under the hood of a car with inadequate cooling and you’re asking for trouble. Modify that car properly and you’ll do better than the factory, but cannot approach the reliability of the M3. Further subtract for 3rd gen’s poor reliability among suspension bushings, 3rd gear synchros, interior bits, and electrical gremlins and, well, you get the idea.
Huge advantage M3

Resale:
Horrible reliability of the 3rd gens is the norm compared to Bayerische Motoren Werke products. The 3rd gen market is misunderstood by most, probably due to the afornoted issue combined with uninformed mechanics/Mazda service departments.
Advantage M3.

Useability/comfort:
The 3rd gen is, of course a 2 door sports car with two seats and minimal storage. It's okay for short commutes, but will beat you up over long distances, particularly among Seattle's brutal streets (I live in Ballard, BTW). The car is good in the rain with proper rubber, but can be a handful when we get an occasional dusting of snow (even in stock form). Not a car I would take to/across Snoqualmie during the ski season (of course, you'd have to rent your skis since you cannot transport them). The seats are decent, but lack proper side bolsters.

The Bimmer is s 4 seater with fantastic traction control and is certainly a car you can drive to the slopes. You can even pack luggage in the damn thing and take another couple out for dinner. The seats are very comfortable, provide good bolstering, and better support than the 7s.
Advantage M3.

Aesthetics:
The FD3s is aging very well and still has lines that many manufactures aspire to emulate. I get many more looks from the seven than I ever do in a BMW-even more than I did in my 911s. The E36 is aging less well and appears a bit boxy, but still looks good, IMO. The interior is nice, though somewhat dated, but hold up much, much better than the 7s pealing plastic extravaganza.
Advantage FD3S.

Esteem:
The 3rd gen 7s (FD3S) are great performance machines, but do not have the "ethos" of the BMW- particularly the M cars. You’ll get more looks in the seven, but garner more respect in the M3.
Advantage M3.

Steering.
I cannot stand the numb steering feel of the 7 (with or without power steering) compared to the M3. Hands down, the M wins. This is such a huge advantage, that I thought it deserved its own category. Perhaps a biased and emotional opinion.
Advantage M3

In summary, I think the M3 easily wins. It is a hugely emotional decision, however. I recommend you drive both, read other’s feedback and think on it for a bit. You’re more than welcome to drop by and drive mine as well.

Regards,

Gene

Rx-7Addict

iTrader: (2)

AN RX-7 is going to have 400 flywheel easily after a few bolt-ons and barely above stock boost levels

Rx-7Addict

iTrader: (2)

Gfelber,

While I agree on some of your points, I disagree on many of them. The RX-7 has amazing resale value. This was a $35,000 car in 1993, and many still go for half of that. Most cars from 1993 are junk by now. Even a nice merc or BMW from 1993 wouldnt be worth much more than 5k

gfelber

That's cool- except the MSRP was high $32K in 1993 (which actually makes a stronger case for your argument). I paid $32,500 for my first FD- a 94 Touring (in 1994) as MSRPs were plummeting due to customer complaints and already stagnant sales (BTW- an amount that was fully refunded to me after ONE month due to a blown engine and other problems).

With regard to resale, perhaps you've seen sales figures I haven't. There are always exceptions, however. I've yet to see a stock FD (other than an exceptionally low mileage vehicle) go for close to half of its original price this year while most are closer to 1/3 and below. I've seen many advertised for that price, but not sold. For example, my brother purchased a fairly low mileage and very clean '93 touring for $10.5K (with a reman motor) 4 months ago.

True, many of the low sale prices are for poorly maintained cars, but that's precisely the problem. Few owners or dealers know how to maintain and repair them which causes the market to be diluted with junk.

Gene

gfelber

Really? Please show us an example.

Most FDs with with ECU, IC, intake, and full exhaust don't make more than 300 RWHP. In fact, most are in the 280-290 RWHP range (approx 320 FWHP using large driveline loss estimates) I doubt there is an FD anywhere in the world that can make 400 FWHP with basic bolt-ons and "barely above stock boost levels". Unless you think 14-15 PSI is barely above stock.

Gene