XxMerlinxX

iTrader: (2)

First hand experience with what data? I fail to see how an extra 1mm of material is going to save you from detonation.

XxMerlinxX

iTrader: (2)

Clearly. You mentioned in your original post that you wanted to make a "reliable" amount of horsepower. Leaning out a rotary engine so that it has an AFR of 13.5 is never reliable. And tuning 1500hp cars is all well and good, but if you've never tuned a rotary, I'd say you're well behind the curve of other rotary tuners and even people who tune at home but know about rotary engines.

GoodfellaFD3S

iTrader: (213)

Just to confuse things even more, I made 420+ rwhp for over seven years on oem 2 piece 2 mm seals...... with water injection for four of the seven

I'm now running RA Super Seals in anticipation of higher boost/power levels.

no_more_rice

nothing is going to "save" you from detonation, but 1/3 greater thickness helps, they are stronger...I'm not sure what Mazda's original application of 3 mm seals was (likely high boost) but clearly they saw some value in them...all I know is I've experienced mild detonation with these seals my 2 mm seals would probably not have endured

GoodfellaFD3S

iTrader: (213)

Mark, the last time Mazda used the 3mm seals was in the n/a GSL-SE back in 1985. They've never been used in an oem boosted application to my knowledge.

no_more_rice

Proud to be old school, Rich

http://www.rotaryengineillustrated.c...3mmupgrade.php

Deals Gap Rotary Rally

iTrader: (6)

Questions..

Who tuned it and what kind of wideband were they using?? Normally, i wouldn't put a wideband at that location as its bit too hot.. But what do I know?

rx927

iTrader: (3)

He speaks the truth. Id presume Mazda had reasons for not sticking with 3mm. Even though ive never had experience with them but id say the only real world benefit would be less chance of the seals making there way around the housing when they break.

Yoshi,
Have you done the fuel pump rewire? Fast reacting IAT? Properly checked injector wiring in the harness? If not i can definitely see where a WOT run,13.5 mixture, and those factors would cause catastrophe.

jamespond24

iTrader: (13)

I guess you haven't try the RA or ALS seals yet? From experience we would never be running 9's in my FB,9.0x in my friend rx3, or 8.81 in my other friend rx2 if it weren't for RA super seals. Hell we never imagine we could boost our car up to 45psi and we are by no mean of a good tuner. I also heard alot of good stuff on the ALS seals too. Ever since using RA seals I don't spent alot of time in the garage than I did when I us atkins or mazda seals

XxMerlinxX

iTrader: (2)

Yeah Rich, this was kind of my point. If 3mm seals really were better, especially concerning detonation, why wouldn't they have put them on their top of the line 3rd gen? My understanding concerning 3mm seals is that you'd really only want to use them if your rotor grooves were worn out and wouldn't fit the 2mm seals anymore.

no_more_rice

No, that's not why they are used...see link in my previous post.

With the advent of so-called "super seals", 3 mm may indeed be superfluous, but I've been happy with them. As the link above states, during the tuning stage, we were able to back off in time to save the engine when it pinged. Would an OEM 2 mm have endured the same treatment? I doubt it

Also https://www.rx7club.com/showpost.php...4&postcount=25 Most of the "3 mm seals cause extra rotor housing wear" rumors stem from the fact that some people still refuse to pre-mix, despite all the information proving it is superior to the OMP

olyrx7

iTrader: (3)

You just need to have the motor built by a good reputable shop and have a Good Tuner, with the right turbo you can easily attain 425-450whp @ 14psi. I was DD like that years ago with no issues, and I always use mazda 2mm seals....

RotaryEvolution

iTrader: (30)

i've used the AEM kits before, they're pretty easy to work with and one has been in use on a ~400WHP FD for about a year now without any issues.

the AFR on that dynograph does worry me though, it does look a bit on the unsafe towards lean side to me.

3mm seals do introduce more wear AND chatter but they do also offer a SLIGHT safety buffer. they are not as vastly superior to 2mm as some people claim and push on people. quite a few in fact have hit well over 800 WHP on 2mm seals. truth is mazda never really worried about the seals, otherwise they would have done away with the 3 piece seals long ago, but that is still beside the point because one of their principles was still correct, 2mm does the job. you can change things up but for every bonus there is also a cost, just as with engine porting you lose some power to gain some power. with seals your cost is engine longevity if the seals do hold up. some people pin motors, which costs a rotor AND housing instead of possibly cracking just a front or rear iron, there are many examples but you get my point.

no_more_rice

false

https://www.rx7club.com/showpost.php...36&postcount=5

also false....more unsubstantiated bs/rumor/nonsense

um....it's more than slight, I'd say it's significant...if it saves you a blown engine that's $5k and a bunch of agony

no one claimed such in this thread....why the tangential drama? I'm always amazed at people who pull this stuff, they literally make up their own strawman argument so they can knock it down and feel good about themselves

YoshiFD3S

iTrader: (19)

Updates! Updates!

Finances are good to go! I am looking to make my final decision on a motor within the week if at all possible.

I think I have narrowed it down to 3 options!

Motor # 1:
https://www.rx7club.com/3rd-generation-rx-7-1993-2002-parts-99/long-block-engine-transmission-mods-ready-drop-878129/

Motor originally remanufactured by: http://www.rotaryresurrection.com/3r..._building.html

- I spoke with Keven @ Rotary Resurrection for roughly 20 minutes today. He has used ALL brands of seals, and prefers Atkins for the price and malleability to conform to USED housings, which most if not EVERYONE uses as part of a "rebuild". He swears they are a bit softer, allowing for a better seal, in comparison to what he considered to be the rigid Rotary Aviation seals.

This motor was Street-ported by: Brent will hand-deliver the motor along with a nice and shiny UIM for $1,600 with my core (regardless of condition) as trade-in.

Option #2:
Option # 3: Strip down my existing core, re-use what can be re-used, and have a local shop Impact Collission, right across the street from MAZCARE perform the full motor rebuild, including streeport and upgraded 2mm (most likely RA Super Seals) for roughly $1,500-$2,000 depending on what internals were damaged from the pop. The advantage to this, is that the shop is LOCAL, I can visually assess the quality of their work...and as friends and business partner's of my brother's shop...they will back the quality of their work.


- So here they are, gents.

- As far as 2mm VS. 3mm....I think for MY application, either one should work fine. It's going to come down my tune, and my driving as to how long this motor will last. >_>

- Regarding BRAND of the seals..I think it's reasonable to deduce based on my conversations with folks like Charlie & Allen at Mazcare, Tim & Steve at Impact Collission, Howard Coleman's experience, and that of many of the rest of you....I currently hold no real PERSONAL preference on what brand seals to use. It's going to come down to YOUR application, HOW you drive, and quality of tuning...whether it be the AFR, CCP, EGT's, knock, etc.

As a side-note, I spoke with Roy @ Grimes today regarding the 13.5 AFR spike in my tune. He informed me that the spike is somewhat inaccurate, due to the initial spooling, the 13.5 may not necessarily be an accurate representation. I don't know...he's the professional after all...

BTW, in my honest opinion...comparing the dyno charts between Roy and the renowned Steve Khan...I would trust Roy's tune over his any day. No offense to the guy...haven't met him.

P.S. I am admitedly ignorant regarding where my brother's shop's dyno plugs into my 3-bar MAP sensor for proper readings. Please forgive my n00ness. I'm still learning and relearning basic motor/rotary fundamentals at this time. :P


So gentlemen...

# 1, # 2, or # 3 ?

Help me pick my FUTURE thread-starter! lol...whatever that might be.

thewird

iTrader: (8)

Option #3 with 3mm seals. Its not a question of application. The benefit of 3mm seals is their extra strength when and if something goes wrong. Whether it be a mechanical failure, electrical problem, tuning error, or as simple as a a bad tank of gas. You have that extra layer of protection. Our cars are 15+ years old, only the engine core is what usually gets replaced. Your still leaving behind all the old stuff most of the time; wiring, sensors, fuel pumps etc.

I can give you a good example of the strength of 3mm OEM seals. 2 years ago when I was still testing the limits of our motors tuning wise. I tuned my car to 18 PSi running a 12.0 AFR with BNR twins running nothing but pump gas. I had been been uping boost, removing fuel, and getting more aggressive with timing every time I went to the track. When I did this I wanted a new motor with bigger ports so I didn't care if it blew up, I was merely testing the limits (I wonder how many people can say they have blown a motor on purpose and not by accident as a direct result of tuning). This tune gave me an extra 30 rwhp over my previous tune on a local dyno that always seems to read lower then expected. Later it showed at the track, because I was keeping up with a GT35R running 1 bar with bigger ports then I had (while it ran anyway).

Anyway, back on topic.... I went to a local track named Mosport with this tune and ran a full 4 laps @ 18 PSi with 12.0 AFR being read on my wideband through the whole RPM range. I wasn''t as fast back then as I am now (was pretty slow actually), so lets assume it took me 1:50 per lap. That's about 7 minutes and change of WOT with this dangerous tune. So the seals were taking punishment from detonation that whole time. Mosport is high-speed track so the engine was always under higher load; in fact where it eventually ended up dying was half-way down the backstretch (which is actually uphill) in 4th gear. Now do you think the engine would have lasted those 7 minutes if it was on 2mm seals? In my opinion, it wouldn't have even lasted a lap all else being equal.

I understand how some people feel 2mm is fine, including Rich. They're is really nothing wrong with the seals. They can live an equally long and strong life. I'm also sure Rich takes care of his car with a fine tooth comb and everything is in tip top shape always and it shows with the 7 years life of his motor making gobs of power. Can you say the same for a lot of owners out there? Or even the luck that comes from just pumping good gas into your tank.

Ionno, I'm just tired of hearing this debate that has been beat to death more then anyone can count and there's still people who don't understand the difference between the 2 sets of seals or are ignorant to what the whole point of using 3mm is. Yes, 1mm doesn't sound like a lot, but that is 50% thicker then the 2mm counter-part.

That is my 2 cents and is 100% my opinion, so take it with a grain of salt like you should with everything else on the internet. Maybe I should have gone to bed earlier...

And about the AFR's, I did say not to be worried about the 13.5 spike as much as the AFR's under full load/boost. You merely threw away the suggestion by multiple members that expressed this opinion of it being tuned too lean just because this person has tuned 1000+ rwhp cars. Let me guess, they were piston motors running on super high octane race fuel? If you insist on having this person tune your car again, ask them kindly to err on the side of caution and add more fuel since you want your motor to last for years. Again this is my opinion and I really do need to go to bed.

thewird

djseven

iTrader: (56)

I swore by 3mm seals years ago, as most making power pre 2008(before it was common to see 500+ rwhp fds) were running them and I had great experience with them. I never once saw extra wear with these seals, however, I did see extra wear out of the atkins 3mm corner seals on the irons.

Landers of rotaryresurrection.com still loves the 3mm OEM seals, he made over 470 rwhp on them with out Water/meth and on pump gas. 20 psi all day ever day and they took the beating. I will say I have seen the 3mm seals last for guys who previously would continue to blow 2mm factory or atkins seals back to back to back and the only change was switching to 3mm.

While I still think oem 3mm is more fool proof than the 2mm oem seals, I still recommend ALS and even the RA super seals though the older seals did tend to wear the housings more aggressive. Ive put a little over 2k on a set of 2mm RA super seals and will likely be tearing the engine down in the spring to go back to a near factory port and I will report on the wear of the housings. I think the option from Brent is still your best choice, it is quick and priced well on a known solid engine.

no_more_rice

My opinion is never re-use housings unless they are very low mileage and in essentially pristine condition. Yes, they're expensive, but that's basically the key wear item on your motor, housings are critical to longevity and compression. Used rotors? No problem imo, as long as they're in good shape.

no_more_rice

Look forward to hearing the results of this tear-down. If the "super seals" are significantly harder, it seems logical they would cause some additional wear.

Brent Dalton

iTrader: (31)

I'm also tearing the engine down in my silver car in the not too distant future that has ~4000 track miles on it along with a few thousand street miles. It has the new RA super seals. I'll most likely be replacing them with the ALS seals.

bewtew

iTrader: (7)

open up your motor and see what got dmg.. buy two brand new housings, you can use a used set of rotor as long as they are in mint condition, get a set of good seals, get the engine ported by one of the vendors on the forum, get the engine BALANCED AND GET A GOOD TUNER THAT TUNES ROTARIES. and 2mm seals will be just fine.. is not like your are trying to run your car @ 35psi or anything crazy like that.

just my .02 cents.

RotaryEvolution

iTrader: (30)

you're right, i don't build engines or see how long they last..

XxMerlinxX

iTrader: (2)

Inaccurate in that you would actually see higher AFRs once off of the dyno. Tuning a car on the dyno can only come so close to real conditions encountered while on the street, you don't get atmospheric changes like you do in the real world, this is one of the reasons why you don't normally tune a rotary to such a lean AFR.

And you clearly don't have a clue as to how to tune a car, but feel free to critique his work anyway. This is just an ignorant statement. From what you've posted, I've gotten the feeling that your tuner doesn't normally see rotary engines very often, if at all. You have a blown engine that you've been told is from bad gas, but I would say that's suspect at best. Then you further go on to say that when comparing dyno charts, you think your tuner's is better? How do you figure that, has your tuner worked on a car with the same mods? Have you taken into account that everyone who gets a tune from Steve isn't trying to make the maximum amount of horsepower, some may want reliability instead? Just how much rotary experience does your tuner have?

The bottom line is that you can tell yourself all sorts of excuses to make up for your tuners shortcomings, inaccurate readings, bad gas, etc.etc. and in the end that's fine, but there's absolutely no need to drag another tuner's name into this at all, especially when you have no experience using them.

YoshiFD3S

iTrader: (19)

I'll be the first to admit my ignorance regarding my mechanics, rotary motors in general, and my own car, let alone tuning.

It isn't my intention to smear anybody's name, so lets get past that point. My opinion is based solely on my own ignorance, so give me the benefit of the doubt on that one. I'm admitting my n00bness.

Lets get past this.

As of today, I am leaning strongly towards Brent's streetported/3mm Atkins seal motor. I am still in the market for the next few weeks or so, if another deal comes by.

I can at least say I now have cash-in-hand to purchase whatever motor I chose to. That's progress.

I wanted to ask another question to everyone, if I may.

Is 18psi on 90/91 California gas while running a stronger (ported/2mm or 3mm) motor WITH methanol/water injection safe, and realistic, given proper tuning?

thewird

iTrader: (8)

Yes, but make sure your AI system is reliable and has failsafes to cut boost if it stops working so the system itself needs to have monitors to know if it stops working. A good system like the FJO (can get a linked boost controller) or Aquamist would do this for you. This is stuff you don't want to cheap out on as its the only thing from keeping your motor from going kaboom.

thewird