best apex seals
 

im rebuilding my motor, just wondering which is best for good boost but not to crazy. i hear the stock seals are the best, but i also heard about carbon seals. there is so many to choose from. help me out guys.
if you have any experence with different seals let me know.

thanks
geoff

ps: im lookin for 400-450whp, just to give you idea of what i want.

what type of longevity are you looking at?

they also make ceramic i believe.

Atkins 2mm seal. Same size as stock, but stronger.

And when they do go out...little to no damage to the engine. I had 2 engine's fail (bad tuner fucked shit up...me...) and both times, the atkins seals chipped a corner or broke pieces out of them...

...and EVERYTHING was salvageable... Didn't mess up a rotor or rotor housing or a turbo exhaust blade. Just had to buy an o-ring kit and new apex seals.

I can't tell you what's best for your application but I can pass on what I have herd. Stock 2mm are three piece units seal up very well but are fragile to detonation. 2mm two piece units seal good and are more resistant to detonation. 3mm two piece are stronger but wear out sooner due to more weight thrown against the rotor housings at high RPMs. 3mm one piece even stronger still but tend to not seal up the compression chamber as well in the corners causing a minor loss in HP. 3mm ceramic are lighter and stronger still but don't wear out like the metal seals do, but when they do break they tend to shatter wiping out rotors, housings and turbos. All apex seals will break under detonation some sooner then others.

Steve

i want a rotary w/o apex seals.
the words apex seal give me nightmares, the kind that have that dam green lama running backwards in them. :D

So your saying 3 mm ceramic seals are the best, but will cause more damage when and if they go out. They are way more expensive too. I'll check with atkins!

i have had better results using hurley seals than any others, atkins included. we have used them at 25 to 28 psi of boost. try http://www.hurleyrotary.com/.

good luck

There has been a lot of talk about these seals lately being utter crap!
Lot's of people have lost engines with these seals. They are soft so they are supposed to do less damage, but I wouldn't use them based on what I've read and heard from people about these seals.

I like the stock seals the best.
The new seals are supposed to be even better.

1. Stock Mazda 2mm
2. Rotary Aviation (New, not much information on these yet)
3. Ceramics (expensive)
4. Atkins

3 mm are a waste of time and money, unless your rotors are shot. They will make less horsepower then the 2 mm, and will only provide more resistance to detonation. The extra piece of mind might be worth it, but there really isn't a need for these on a well tuned engine.

i agree with glass man it's not always 3>2

stock seals are best

Pineapple Racing sells there own ceramic one piece 3mm apex seal for about $1350. Thats the best price I have herd of.

Some one correct me if I am wrong, becasue I don't know, I am just assuming. Ceramics seem like they would be a great investment if you are not going to run your car much above stock. Since the chances of blowing a seal at 10-12 psi boost (and well tuned) are small. And the if you aren't blowing a seal, the only other thing that can go wrong is wearing out, which the ceramics don't do (to an extent). Like I said, feel free to call me stupid, because this is all an assumption.

Check this out.

http://www.rotaryaviation.com/2_mm_apex_seals.htm

From what I gather about the materials that are used in seals, a metal fin coated with whatever teflon or something, if it goes, and hits the houseing or turbo will cratch and bend the turbo, and scratch the gousing, Ceramics, on the other hand are strong, but to to their molecular build shatter on impact with something like another seal and or the turbo fans, so if you loose a seal that's ceramic, it's very doubyfull that any damage will be done to the houseing or to the turbos, due to the fact that it will just shatter into smaller and smaller pieces untill you're just talking about dust that might even make it through the cat.... The drawback from what I understand is price, Ceramics are MUCH more expensive, than standard apex seals, and are typically used in race applications due to their stength, and the fact that they rebuild the motor anually, and if something goes wrong, they don't have to scap houseings and or turbos....

Please correct me if I'm wrong here... :D

There would be no point. Close to stock cars almost always die of coolant seal failure, not apex seal failure....

ceramic is hard and that's why it's used for high hp applications.

but b/c it's hard it's also brittle much like a file.

if it's close to stock just use the cheaper stock seals. They usually only break when something wrong is done to them

Hey Artguy, how are the Ianetti 3mm's holding up?

good info, but from what i hear, stock is the best.

also 3piece apex seals are better than the 1 or 2 piece.

i want to run at least 400-500 whp, im hoping these seals aer good enough to handle that.

anyone who has high whp that knows something about which are the best seals to get?

also i hear thats the atkins can only handle to about 15 psi, and begin to melt.

and the stock ones can handle over 25psi.

i dunno guys but the stock ones seem better to me.



ive seen these seals, not to sure how good they are yet.

I have heard Iannetti's .. these are ceramic seals.. Apprently they are over 200 per seal.. Le Man cars use them..

Iannetti apex seals..
 

iannettihttps://www.rx7club.com/attachment.php?postid=2405556

I took this pic at Jim Downing's shop.. This is what they use on 4 rotor racing car.

ive heard 360 per seal.

the Atkins seals don't take well to high EGT's...not high boost. Lots of BP rotary's running 1.8 on big turbo's here in Japan running atkins seals.

I just blew the rotary aviation seals. I'll be pulling the engine apart this weekend to find results with pictures. I went lean I believe and that's what caused it to blow(11.8 a/f)

Though you claim that, do you have any factual data to back it up? I'm not denying that your statement is false, I am just interested in seeing some numbers.

jspec,

I'm curious what RA will think with the results..

Could be?? I heard from people at Jim Downing that it was 200+.. I don't remember exact price..

I think I'm gonna try the 2 piece 2mm Rotary Aviation apex seals myself. They sound promising!

yeah I agree with the stock ones because think about it thats what the engine came with and the company of course researched and tested different mm ratio's so stock ones sounds right, don't take risks

dont mean to hijack the thread but.........

i have a question about 3mm seals.... how long does the motor last? is there anyone out there with 3mm seals that have over 50 or 60k miles on their engine???

no rotary can last that long :crackup:
jk im sure theres someone.

anyone run more than 15psi on the atkins daily? and not have there engine blow? i think atkin seals are just good for NAs or engines that run stock psi. i could be wrong...

I know there's someoe that's running 3mm's on 12 psi, on stock ECU with PF IC and Airbox... that has 120 K mi on a rebuild... total odometer is 210 I think...
According to owner it still pulls strong... :scratch:

What about Hurley's "other" seals? Anybody ever try any of these? Are they worth it on a street car? At all?

Corner seals:
http://www.hurleyrotary.com/rcornseals.aspx

Duplex Apex Seals:
http://www.hurleyrotary.com/dutips.aspx

Double Side Seals:
http://www.hurleyrotary.com/rsideseal.aspx

And also, Direct Apex Seal Lubrication:
http://www.hurleyrotary.com/rsideseal.aspx

Sorry bout all this, but I'm relatively new to rotaries and I'm just trying to find a foothold on sealing issues. :)

i have run 20 psi pump gas (driven daily) with 3mm apex seals ...runs great no problems .....but i also believe 3mm is overkill ( no real performance gain ) i guess the 2mm is better because of less friction within the engine
also i ran this engine for a couple of months (8 or 9 not shure) then started 20 b swap
ive also use hurley seals but i believe they are too soft
and their corner seal originally had 2 springs ( that didnt turn out to well) had to change those rather quick
and ceramics are good for when you are running high EGTs it will hold a little better
BUT when ceramic breaks ,SAY GOODBYE ENGINE ,you will most likely have to dissasemble youre engine next to a garbage bin IT BREAKS EVERYTHING even scratches the plates real bad ,...and i mean real bad

My buddy Alan put over 75k on a 3mm seal motor before the coolant seals took a crap on him.

He had/has intake, dp, highflow cat, cb, fmic, power fc.

Yes if it's not the apex seals the coolant seals go, with a reputable rebuilder, if he knows the issues at hand, can help increase the longevity of coolant seals....
Like I said 120K on the Coolant seals and Apex Seals ... still running strong...

what are the best coolant seals then?

o ya i know, in my fc engine the coolent seals went, and i had plently of life still left in the apex seals. i was just playing around though, just throwing one of those rotary jokes.

but i think the stock seals are the best, i havent heard anything bad about them yet.
i know for sure im not going with 3mm, or 1 piece seals.
i want to be able to run high boost, with the right fuel and not worry about the seals not being able to hold the psi. i hear the stock seals can go well over 20 psi, i already stated this earlier. why wouldnt you run these seals?
im little confused why people go with seals that dont last as long or are known for not lasting.
atkins are very popular but yet they cant hold over 15psi?
i dont know what else to say i guess, those numbers pretty much talk for themselves no?


vosko was running t78, on stock seals, never had a problem with his engine. that might say something.
im sure theres others out there running stock seals with high powered engines.


there is no real good seal, they are all the same. the key to making those seals last is changing your coolent every year. bad coolent weakens the seals, and thats what happened to my engine. causeing it to over heat, not because there was little coolent but it would go into the engine from the leaky seal causeing lose of cooling in the whole engine. knid of hard to explain but just flush your whole coolent system and you will be golden.

let me know if im wrong in any of this, i rather be corrected then thinking the wrong facts.
thanks
geoff

This one mentioned differn't types of materials you could use like teflon, or silicone, the one i found the most interesting was kalrez...

https://www.rx7club.com/showthread.p...ghlight=Kalrez

Everyone is looking for the silver bullet.

[sarcasm]
stock *can't* be good. aftermarket *must* be better.
[/sarcasm]

Quote:

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vosko was running t78, on stock seals, never had a problem with his engine. that might say something.
im sure theres others out there running stock seals with high powered engines.
thanks
geoff

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Not the greatest example. Vosko always broke all his non-motor parts. How many miles did he put on his rex? I'm guessing around 5k per year.

That said, I do agree. There ain't nuthin' wrong with them there stock apex seals, Billy Joe :).

I have to vote for the stock seals, but I am very intrested in Rotary Aviation's new seals, from the initial research they look great, I'd like to hear what you find when you tare down your engine, jspecracer7.

Someone who use Rotary Aviation's seals ?

thnx for the input racer ill be sure to change the coolant at least once a year, hahahah, my failing coolant system has just put my engine in for a major rebuild

anyone else?

It's not the Coolant seals that are different everybody uses the ones that come with the mazda, gasket set... what's important is how you protect them from getting too much heat / chemical reaction to coolant, on the rubber, which as we all know from vaccum hoses causes them to fail... Think Heat Barrier / Coating the gaskets with something...

-DC

"Hylomar HPF

Hylomar is a non-hardening gasket sealer that leaves the tube as a thin paste which then thickens after a few minutes. This allows the sealer to be brushed onto each component with relative ease. Hylomar not only improves the sealing of the rotor housing O-rings, but it also effectively retains the water O-rings and seal protectors during assembly. Racing Beat has used Hylomar exclusively for over thirty years in every engine we have assembled. "

you mean something like this?
nabbed it off the racing beat website

So what kind of boost are the Japanese rotorheads running on the Atkins seals ? I see that you blew yours bec. of bad tuning. The guy that built my engine has run the piss out of the Atkins seals @ 26psi-30+psi with hundreds of passes on the track.

He's never blown an Atkins seals bec. of too much boost. Here's his 9 second Rx-3 w/13B Motor.

they are wonderful...saved my ass from bad tuning by xs mail order crew. I would use them again in a heart beat. they are expensive..but they were worth every penny.


j

I'm getting a core motor soon and I think I am gonna put the rotary aviation 2mm seals in them.

I wonder what would it be like to throw an apex seal while flying a plane. I couldn't even imagine.

my friend blew his cermaics with his GT35/40.. it tore the whole turbo up... anything going thru something that fast will most likely screw something up..

i'm interested in these aviationseals as well...