Anti-Detonation device explained...........
 

Modern engines are capable of utilizing slightyl higher compression ratios than in the past because ECUs are capable of sensing the onset of detonation and can retard the spark to eliminate detonation. Unfortuently, a drastic loss in power results from retrading the spark. Detonation usually ossurs while an engine is under load.

For years, folks have tinkered with engines to optimize performance for racing. Stock engines are manufactured to optimize performance for pump gas. For the most part the higher the octane the less liekly it will detonate granted that the respective mods are constant. Furthermore, better burning fuel eliminate detonation allowing for optimal performance.

The "anti-detonation device" (ADD) is a fuel processing system consisting of several sections that are capable of mixing fuel and air into a more homogeneous state than is possible with standard fuel injection or carbs. The A/F mixture can be mixed into a more homogeneous state because the mixture particle size is reduced. This increase in homogeneity results in a much better burning mixture. The fuel particles are mixed in a way such that, when injected into a high compression or turbo'd combustion chamber, detonation is not present.

The optimal A/F ratio is about the same as 1bar of atmospheric pressure 14.7:1. Most of us run more fuel to reduce the drain from our bank accounts.

Basic concepts of its fucntion will be discussed but with no specific details can be revealed (don't harrass me with PM's and emails like a bunch of hungry puppies begging their mom for the daily vomit meal). Explicit characteristics of the fluid flow and actual dimensions will not be discussed.

The ADD was developed to aid in the thorough mixing of the A/F before it enters the combustion chamber. Air is added tot he fuel stream and subjected to multiple pressure drops. This is accomplished using a series of sections, similar orfices plates, shich restrict the A/F mixture. The combination of several pressure differentials and swirl induced by each orfice within the system aids in the atomization of the mixture. The greater the atomization of the mixture, the closer it is to being a homogenous flow which will enhance the evaporation of the flow.

Fuel is first injected inti the system by means of a fuel injector. Air is drawn into the system from radial holes aligned parallel to the flow of the fuel. Once the fuel and air have been mixed initially, the mixture travels through a series of orfices. The pressure differential created by the orfice is similar to that seen through the single venturi of a carburetor. A combination of multiple orfices, which produce pressure drops and an increase in turbulence throughout the mixture, contribute to better mixing and fuel droplet size reduction than is possible with injectors alone........

BTW, this should also add to fuel economy when ur just cruising.

Hmmm... At least I can envision what it is you are talking about.

I also can't see how this is a cheap install. It has to fit into the fuel system at the injectors.

Interesting. Was there any event (disclosable or not) that now allows you to describe this setup?

I'll infer that the 'bolt-on' nature of this modification is some assembly that fits onto the injectors or intake. It doesn't sound like a $60 install to me, but so be it. Please comment if you can.

Dave

where did you get all this info from? how accurate is this info?

:rofl:

I knew it!

I already got a bunch of beggers.

Information = power

Well if I go into details then that means that the stuff becomes public knowledge and may indeed debunk KDR's ability to patent this technology for greater profit.

Why would I want to do that?

i hope these arent your words, batman

What I thinK: This is conceptual info, and qualitatively it is based on sound engineering principles. Accuracy, I trust BATMAN, but I need to see the final bolt-on before I spend. He had already admitted to detailed knowledge of this product before and that there has been an NDA in place.

Whether KDR can get all this functionality in under $1000, and whether it will be DIY installable, is another question.

Dave

That would explain higher possible A/F ratios. So I'm guessing that it doesn't resrict flow all that much. Hmm, there isn't much room between the motor and the LIM for something unless.... it actually replaces the LIM, hmm...

Man if you run race gas or some crazy toluene mix and if you make every attempt to keep your intake temps down you could run some absolutley INSANE A/F ratios!

Which questions are off-limits? It's going to be a mess if you claim you'll discuss it without identifying which questions can't be addressed. A simple 'no comment' should suffice.

So, can you tell me the specifics about fluid flow and some actual dimensions?

I will neither confirm nor deny......

Re: Anti-Detonation device explained...........
 

Would this thread really be about hypocritical cockiness or ego stroking?





No comment.

Batman, are you by anychance related to skip, perhaps his son??? dont take offense if your not, just curious. I heard that his son is helping him with this project! I know that his son works for some technology firm or something like that, and i know that there is a lot of those types of places in Silicon Valley.

Now I got people trying to attack me since they are upset that I'm not doling out the cookie crumbs.

How elementary....

Nope, I'm not realted to skip aside from the fact that I have the same number of homosomes as he does...... ;)

No offense, but you have offered no proof that :

1) this device you describe works or exists
2) that this is the same type of setup that KDR is using
3) that you have any way of having any 'inside' info which would lend your post some credibility.

This is absolutely NOT a flame on you, but it's just me venting a little because of the other long thread already on this topic that contains no facts.

When they can sell me something that works, I'll be first in line!

Regards,
Brian

well you doods can guinie pig this fukker...cuz im sure as hell not doing it.

let us know of yer machine blows up again batman.


lol


j

dont worry batman, some of us will wait, but it is damn tempting to pm and harass you ;)

Well from what I read about on the KDR thread I must raise a big...
:bsflag:
If you're familiar with a diesel engine... it gets great compression, due to the fact that that's what it does to get combustion going... A diesel uses a glow plug (not spark) initially to get the combustion cycle going, but once underway the only way to stop it is to remove fuel.. and air... to stall the engine...
Air and fuel go in and get compressed until the heat of that fact is so high that the fuel ignites by itself... without spark....

Basically detonation is the same.. fuel and air heat up to a point where they ignite beyond what Is safe.. and the whole cocktail explodes prematurely, blows apex seals away.. way before any spark gets to the fuel... (Detonation) so whatever spark plug you're talking about (KDR thread) or this doohickey... there's no suck thing as detonation proof, just raising the limits, and once you do you just have a higher threshold, but we're not talking unattainable... since all you need is to increase the compression / heat in the combustion chamber and you're right back to square one... pre detonation...

I like you batman, I really do, but there's no such thing as detonation proof or anti detonation... I think you're raising the bar which is admirable, but not to the point where you can't detonate...

At least not with what has been brought forth in these discussions....

-DC

this is like a soap opera....i dunno!

batman...your intial posts leads me to believe that you some how have inside info. If you do then good for you and thanks for posting up some facts. BUT, if you do not, then you atleast should state that the info that you do have is pure speculation and that what you are talking about "can" be what KDR has in development.

DCrosby, they continue to use the glow plug. pv/t if the temp of the glow plug were to drop 10% the pressure would have to increase 10%, which is can not do because the compression is fixed.

From what I understand the glow plug is heated by the combustion and no electricity is applied to the plug after the car is warm... sort of like a glow plug on a model airplane engine... (Sorry I should have ellaborated)

-DC

pv/t is unrelated to ignition.

In a glow plug engine, like a model airplane, the plug is designed to continue to glow after power is removed.

In a diesel engine compression alone is enough to ignite the mixture. The glow plug is used for starting because the fuel does not vaporize well in a cold engine.

the rx8 has a little tube in the primary port to supply air into the port.

mike

Let's just say that KDR ain't the only one that develope(d) something like this...........

Hmm... guess I got confused when I read that nitro funny cars burn through the spark plug and use them as glow plugs.

Hehe, no you probably werent confused. Maybe you read it in MAD magazine :)

or maybe they do. nitro/SC drag cars are detonation machines. Thats the main reason they replace engines every run or so. If a engine only has to last 4 sec at power, it can detonate and not heat soak the head so it MAY make it through the run. As we know, many dont make it.

Nice Search, Matty

STAR TUBE
Attack of the Clones

im sure all this is serious. all i wanna see is a product with "shipped" sale price. . . with instructions of course. :D

paul

His son was in California last time I talked to Skip... j/k man. But it does seem that you have some inside info on this.

This is more news that points to the fact that KDR's miracle product does work! Good news for rotary enthusiasts everywhere.

Right, I understand that there would still be a point where the car would detonate. But lets just say that for example you could run an AFR of 16:1 before it'd detonate. That gives you a lot more room in tuning, and gives you the opportunity to hit the 14.7:1 that we rotary enthusiasts so long to have.

Sounds like you will soon enough Paul. ;)

piston engines envy that ratio as well. . . i dont think 14.7:1 is a happy number in my book. . . just too dangerous. too many variables.

paul

Good job Matty........... the force is strong in u.........

Re: Anti-Detonation device explained...........
 

BATMAN, you had better stay in your cave and bone up on what detonation is. You're trying to explain something from hearing someone talk but has no idea.

First, detonation is as the name says, explosion rather than combustion but which explosions occur spontaneously rather than as desired by the engine controller. Second, detonation is not always bad depending on where it occurs in the combustion cycle. To wit, ever listened to a diesel? Explain to me why it's doesn't punch a hole in the piston.
Third, if detonation is the result of large particle size, then why the hell does dumping a shit load of fuel reduces detonation? (hint, hint, internal engine cooling)
Fourth, atomization of fuel is always good. But in and of itself, atomization doesn't explain why this device works.
Fifth, the technique that allows one to ignite a lean mixture with little or no detonation is to have a pre-ignition chamber that is filled with a rich fuel mixture. The rich fuel mixture is used to ignite the lean fuel mixture with the result that detonation is reduced. Your explanation sounds like this pre-ignition chamber that I raised when 911GT first brought up the subject.

I can't believe the shit that are propagated in this forum as the WORD.

Re: Anti-Detonation device explained...........
 

Forget anti-detonation. How do I get in on this daily vomit meal thing???

I want to also add that this air assist atomization technique has been around for a long time. Orbital engine of Australia is foremost in this field.

I never gave all the information............. just a tease.

If I were to dole out the entire information it would be almost 200 pages long. Ur eyeballs would have fallen out already.

So what kinda patent do u specialize in?

I'm very interested, but I'll wait till a couple people try it out. I hope its something I can get without actually driving to KDR.:p:

You live in $%*!@ PA! Don't gimme crap about driving there...

CA is longer and thicker than most of ur eastern states combined ;)

Yeah, but we got KDR on our side. They're starting a rotary revolution! And I can get there faster than you so :wavey: see ya when you get here!

settle down dood...until the shit works and is on the market there is NO evidence that points to anything.

youve been sold. People got all hyped like this about a certain set of untested turbos. now look what happened....9 out of 10 sets dont work properly.

just because you think something is going to work doesnt mean it will. period. ive got twenty five grand into my motor and turbos and mods...ive used tested and untested parts...with the untested comes the learning curve...and with the learning curve comes mistakes...with mistakes comes lost funds and downtime.

so...beware the hype....if the shit works..great...if not...you go ahead and be the guy to let me know...cuz no way in hell do i want to be that guy.


j

I don't doubt that there is some device that can do this. I have been in this business long enough to see instances of counter-intuitive stuff that works.

What I doubt is your explanation of detonation. It doesn't sound like you know what detonation is. And because your explanation is so vague, it tends to discredit your explanation of how the device work.

As for patents, I do electro-mechanical devices, actuators, magnetic actuators, some software, but mostly fuel injectors for a huge int'l corp. And because patent examiners are engineers, you have to explain things very clearly.

Be careful of getting a patent for the sake of getting a patent. A patent is a legal tool that must be planned with foresight as to how it will be used. Getting a willy nilly patent will get you nowhere and profit the lawyers.

Re: Re: Anti-Detonation device explained...........
 

Umm, look....I don't want to get involved in flamage back and forth here. But I think you're kinda gettin' a little worked up and jumpin' the gun here, poman. I not trying and don't want to sound condescending here; just trying to impart the right information to everyone.

No one never said detonation was the result of fuel droplets being too large-- but it is true that with a much more atomized fuel/air mixture (smaller fuel droplets), you get a more controlled "burn", which helps to prevent detonation or pre-ignition. Detonation in a descriptive sense with regards to internal combustion engines is kind of misleading; it's not so much an "explosion", it's more of an uncontrolled burn of the fuel/air mixture in the combustion chamber. The whole idea behind running richer fuel mixtures to prevent detonation is to control the burn in the combustion chamber, whether through keeping combustion chamber temps under control (like you referred to) so "hotspots" aren't created that will pre-ignite the mixture, or to make the mixture rich enough so that the flame front (as the mixture burns) is slowed, since the fuel octane isn't sufficient to control the flame front. The whole idea behind octane is to slow the speed of the mixture's burn rate in the combustion chamber. But if you make the atomization of the fuel/air mixture fine enough, you can control the burn just as well (or better, depending on circumstances) as if you had a much higher octane rated fuel. That is the principal behind this "StarTube" device.

And while I originally thought that this device used the principals of injecting a "pre-mixed" mixture like the Orbital direct injection technology, I'm not so sure now that it's exactly the same. Plus, direct injection would be much more expensive (I'd think, at least) than $800-something to market, since you need to use air pressure to assist the direct injection. I wish there was more info on this StarTube device, but I haven't been able to find it yet.

Again, I don't want to sound like I'm a know-it-all, and I don't want to sound condescending to you or anyone. But I think the right info needed to be stated here.

Oh, and yeah, it's still possible to achieve detonation with this device (but it would take some work); and there's no way I'll pony up the dosh until I see a lot of others getting substantiated results.

Man, I've never seen such hype since, what, windows 95?
Maybe KDR can get the Stones to license them a song too.
I think it's time that whomever is behind all this hype either dispel some myths and state some fact or all this speculation is going to do more harm than good. Right now it sounds so much like "Oh, she's got a real good personality" blind date. You can polish a turd but it's still a turd, you know what I mean?

Frank

I know if you were thinking you would assumed this would happen. I am in no way bashing you, I have no reason too. What you are doing is actually just lame. There is another thread about this and well it went on and on. I know KDR is reputable and I am not saying it is impossible for them to create such a device but, why not wait until they actually have something to say about it?

You offer no proof, and a no comment. It seems more like a sales pitch then anything else.

:crackup:LOL

Yea, I'm actually less than 2hrs away from nazareth, but I like to do all the work myself. I never was at KDR. I called once and they said to book dyno time it would be about 3 months. I can't plan that far ahead.:D

Damn forum lag! See below

All this talk about the device allowing for the engine to have a more complete combustion, makes me think they are using injectors from the Rx8 in addition to this device. I heard those injectors have a really fine spray pattern.


Oh by the way, any idea when they expect to have this device ready? Or do they plan on waiting till sevenstock?

True, I intentionally didn't offer proof since that would explain the technology in great detail, thus severely hindering KDR's ability to secure a patent (if that was part of their intent). Once it's disclosed then it becomes publuc information and then the patent attorneys will have their hands full.

What do attorneys do when they have their hands full? They usually charge more to fix or address a situation.

U almost sound like a Liberal trying to get free information for all to see and use at the expense of someone else's hard work......... but I'm not going to go there.

Bah humbug!