Alternative/Replacement for Boost Control Solenoid
 

http://www.perrinperformance.com/pro...ersal/ebcs.htm

I have no experience with this, but I found it interesting because of the relative low cost. It can be used to replace stock solenoid as well as aftermarket boost controllers.

Anyone know if any decent boost control can be had by using this replacement boost solenoid along with a PFC, or would it be simpler and more effective to use a unit like a Profec and the like?

Cheers.
David

http://www.perrinperformance.com/pro...id?category=37

Here is the new link. Anybody have luck swapping this in place of the OE solenoid? The PFC should be able to manage boost using lower vent %.

How easy or hard is it to get to the OE wastegate solenoid to disconnect? What do I need to take off to get access to it?

Anyone know where I can get an OE type female harness (radio shack?) to wire to the Perrin solenoid for easy connection to the ecu harness? I have an apexi avcr with solenoid (not to use, but for reference) on hand. It looks, from some low-res forum pics, to be the same size as the OE harness. Does any know if the harness are identical or the OE harness? If so I can take it to radioshack to test fitment.

The Apexi solenoids are only slightly more than that - and they come with an FD specific connector.

If you want to control boost, get a boost controller. The stock solenoids are a waste of time on most any modified setup, and even with the PowerFC's control you're still wasting your time.

For all the cost and effort you could have put in a good used electronic boost controller and been done with it. Or, hook up that AVC-R you're looking at.

BTW, Radio Shack is a good place for RC cars and stereo cables, that's about it :). Any of the connectors you'll find on the FD are damn near impossible to source - trust me, I've tried. Again, not a problem when you ditch the factory boost control and hook up a boost controller.

Dale

Mac makes some 3 way replacment boost solenoids that cost 17-$25. Same solenoid used in the haltech and aem that are over $100. Im sure it could also be used with the pfc boost control functions, especially with all the testing that arghx has done.

What about the Delphi GT Series? The picture shown at page 8 of their catalog
http://delphi.com/pdf/contact/brochu...balCatalog.pdf
closely resembles the OE connectors to the PC and WG solenoids.
I want to try and evaluate using these 3-ports solenoids with the PFC, as suggested by arghx. https://www.rx7club.com/3rd-generation-specific-1993-2002-16/why-engine-so-damn-complicated-part-1-sequential-turbos-demystified-841821/page3/ Would prefer not to hack the harness and I am looking for compatible connectors.

Any lead would be highly appreciated.

Thanks.

- Sandro

From what I can tell, the precontrol/wastegate connectors are AMP/Tyco part #174352-2 http://www.tycoelectronics.com/catal...3288,46917&N=8

http://www.tycoelectronics.com/catal...s/pr174352.jpg

that's for the harness (male) side. It is the same style as the other Econoseal J series connectors here: http://www.bmotorsports.com/shop/ind.../cPath/109_172 except that ballengar motorsports doesn't sell the two-way plug, so I had to find the Tyco part number. Amp is I think a Japanese subsidiary of Tyco, which explains why they manufacturer many of the electrical connectors on 80s and 90s Japanese cars. The factory FD ECU plugs are also made by AMP and are very similar style to the Nissan and Honda ones I've worked with for cars of that era.

I'm pretty sure the solenoid side connector is here: http://www.tycoelectronics.com/catal...&RQPN=174354-2 I think it's part # 174354-2

http://www.tycoelectronics.com/catal...s/pr174354.jpg

One thing to note though is that there are a couple similar looking plugs with different part #s in the Tyco catalog. I'm 90% sure those two would work but you can't be positive without testing. It might be a good idea to call up Ballengar Motorsports ( (804) 915-7201 is listed on their website ) and see if they can just get pigtails for the two way connectors. Otherwise for the solenoid side you would need the pins: http://www.bmotorsports.com/shop/pro...roducts_id/680 and this crimper may work: http://www.bmotorsports.com/shop/pro...roducts_id/362 so you can assemble the connector yourself on to whatever aftermarket solenoid you choose to use.

Also, dudemaan pointed out that http://www.frightprops.com/FrightPro...ID=A-0013-0082 are basically the same as the Haltech and AEM solenoids.

One more thing to note. From the research I've done (a wise man by the name of Google.com), the Profec/AVC-R solenoid runs at 30hz. Since the Profec/AVC-R is a direct replacement for the factory solenoid, it is reasonable to believe that the factory solenoid runs at a frequency near 30hz. The Perrin solenoid is rated for a range of 20-40hz if I remember correctly, and the last time I messed with Halwin I thought the default boost control frequency was 30hz.

What I'm trying to get at here is that there is a good chance that most available boost control solenoids will work well enough with the PFC. Usually the 3 way solenoids have the NC port on the side opposite the COM port and the NO port in the middle between those two. They're all pretty similar.

Thanks for the information Raymond, comprehensive and exhaustive - as usual...

I had sent an email to BM earlier this morning, asking help to identify the right connector. I ordered yesterday the 3-w MAC solenoid valves from the Halloween vendor you mentioned. I also ordered this "speed control" exhaust http://www.frightprops.com/FrightPro...ID=A-0011-0030 just to have one more parameter to play with...

Also found this other source/info on the MAC valves http://www.airhydropower.com/MacStoc...og/sm3way4.htm

- Sandro

While waiting for MB to reply, I just ordered a free sample of this directly from Tyco in PA. I will let you know...

Does the free sample come with pins? Will be interesting to see what you discover.

No, only the casing. It's a start...

http://www.bmotorsports.com/shop/pro...&wx=300&hx=300

these are the pins, 25 cents each: http://www.bmotorsports.com/shop/pro...atlk6v9p8ocqa3 . i posted a crimping tool above. I presume it is the same pins and connector housing as what comes on the Denso-made Apex'i AVC-R solenoid, which costs more but will connect to the stock harness. I wonder: is there a yellow retaining clip for the solenoid side plug, I don't have my solenoid near me right now. And is it a separate part number from the female housing I posted?

The free sample I ordered from TYco, PA is the male (solenoid connector) - which is really the only connector I need - assuming it will properly connect to the OE harness connector. The sample I believe is the housing only, without the assembly.

The pins you posted above are for the female assembly. The male pins should be these ones
http://www.bmotorsports.com/shop/pro...roducts_id/793

Attached are pictures of the Apexi connectors (solenoid-male and AVCR harness-female). There is no yellow retaining clip for the solenoid side connector. The only yellow part is the assembly inside the housing. Again...to bad BM only seem to carry the 3-pin assembly. Incidentally, they still have not replied my email

The male housing of the Apexi looks identical to the part # 174354-2 you identified earlier.

wait. IF you have an unused AVCR lying around, why are you ordering a solenoid? Just use the AVCR one.

also, did I get male and female reversed then? I was going off of memory, sorry.

That would make this project too easy :)

The drawing you posted at #13 shows the "sockets" pins that receive the male terminals http://www.bmotorsports.com/shop/pro...roducts_id/793 I believe

I also spent some more time researching connectors, comparing drawings, etc. And I am now convinced these are indeed the right connectors

AMP Econoseal J Series [Mark II (+)]

The question now is. How to find a vendor who carries the ones with the "2 position"? The Tyco website has links to distributors. The minimum order seems to be 1,000-1,500 units.
A heck of a Group Buy...

I think ballengar motorsports may be your only likely bet. Explain to them that they are the same connectors as the Greddy Profec and AVC-R solenoid, which people do use for various standalones like the AEM EMS and of course the Power FC. They may see the potential demand for the connectors and choose to stock them on a permanent basis.

Update:

- I was notified by Tyco that the sample shipped yesterday.

- BMotorsport answered

---------------
Sandro,

Good work! We can bring that connector in but I believe your application originally uses Sumitomo connectors. These AMP connectors may be a valid cross. I have one of the purge control solenoids here so I can test it when we get them in which will probably be 1 week. If validated, how many do you need?

Regards,

James Ballenger
---------------

Good news, isn't it?

It would good if could give JB and indication on how many we may need.

Who would be interested?

At this point of my research, and mostly through the exhaustive information I got from arghx, I am convinced that using 3-ports MAC solenoids with the PFC will be a significant improvement over the 2-ports stock solenoid and possibly a superior cost effective solution over stand alone EBC, which use (I believe all do) 3-ports solenoids. First of all - for those using the Datalogit - you could still log the duties, which would be essential for tuning the system. Second - for those with sequential - you could use two separate solenoids for added tuning flexibility.

Also, obviously it would be good to have a source for replacing the connectors of other solenoid valves (Apexi or Profec) if they get damaged.

Please speak up. Thanks,

- Sandro

The part numbers for the MAC solenoids are # 35A-AAA-DDBA-1BA and 35A-AAA-DDEA-1BA will also work. They are both basically the same. You can find distributors on the AMP website and can be purchased for around $17 through the distributors. it's the same solenoid that AEM and haltech use and will probably work to replace greddy, apexi and etc. Much better price then the $100 + most places want.

Yes, I received today 2 x 35A-AAA-DDBA-1BA I bought them at Frightsprops for $26.50 each.

Here is a picture of the valves taken side by side with the Apexi

https://www.rx7club.com/attachment.p...1&d=1256261395

see also https://www.rx7club.com/showpost.php...8&postcount=65

Thanks

First impression of the MAC 35A-AAA-DDBA-1BA
 

- very tiny, about half the size (and weight of the Apexi)

- ports are oriented like the Apexi, COM (to the actuator) is identified as port #2, across it, on the opposite side) is port #1 (vent), port #3 (boost source) is in between the two, at 90 deg. Ports 2 and 3 are connected if the solenoid is de-energized (boost to the actuator fail-safe); ports 2 and 1 are connected when the solenoid is energized (bleed from the actuator)

- measured impedance at 26 ohm; tag W=5.4 at VDC=12 @ 27 ohm, very close

- tested for sealing - threads need teflon; at first I was afraid they would leak; wrapped threads of the 1/8 " NTP fittings with a round of teflon red and re-tested OK at 30 psi pressure and 28 inHg vac (re. dgeesaman procedure https://www.rx7club.com/showthread.p...light=solenoid)

Received the sample of the connector housing today
http://www.tycoelectronics.com/catal...&RQPN=174354-2

https://www.rx7club.com/attachment.p...1&d=1256427783

Good news!

It's identical to the Apexi solenoid connector, which matches the OE harness.
In the pic you can see the back of the the two connectors, the Apexi left and the sample right. You can see the molds are the same. Incidentally, as I was taking the pic, I noticed both have small AMP logos (not visible in the low res picture attached)

- Sandro

Good work. I'd be interested in five or six if Ballenger decide to stock them.

on those new solenoids, port 2 is on the left in the diagrams (COM), port 1 is on the right (NC), and port 3 is in the middle (NO)?

hook port 3 to the boost source and port 2 to the actuator. leave port 1 vented. if you don't, you're not blocking the wastegate signal, you're just switching from one pressure source to the other as the solenoid cycles on and off rapidly. look at all the "blocker type" vacuum routing diagrams for various aftermarket boost controllers. port 1 is never hooked to a boost source. It is either vented or recirculated to the intake to reduce noise.

This is no different than hooking up a Greddy Profec.

Yes thanks. I believe this is what I meant to say in my post #21 above.

Port #1 (vent) is NC (close) when the solenoid is de-energized, and open when the solenoid is energized (like the OE two-way PC and WG "bleed" control valves).
Port #2 (COM) is always open (whether the solenoid is energized or not) and gets connected to the actuator.
Port #3 (boost source) - in the middle - is NO (open) when the solenoid is de-energized, and closes when the solenoid is energized.

https://www.rx7club.com/attachment.p...7&d=1256467838

This configuration is fail-safe. If the solenoid fails and get de-energized while operating (i.e. boost is present) the boost source would force the actuator to open the WG.

Not sure what you meant by saying "not blocking the wastegate signal" or "switching from one pressure source to the other" but I believe we are on the same page.

Thanks

- Sandro

I wasn't understanding your earlier post. I thought you were going to hook both Port #1 and Port #3 to boost, which would be pointless, but that routing is correct.

Note that this 3 port solenoid functions exactly like a 5 pin relay:

https://www.rx7club.com/attachment.p...1&d=1256483430

85 and 86 pins are for the coil, just like in the solenoid valve

pin 30 is COM
pin 87a is NC... but in an electrical circuit, the terminology is reversed so "closed" means continuity in the circuit
pin 87 is NO... but in an electrical circuit, the terminology is reversed so "open" means no continuity'

compare to your diagram, noting that the solenoid coil is not depicted

https://www.rx7club.com/attachment.p...7&d=1256467838

One more picture. I connected the AMP connector sample to the harness. It fits perfectly.

https://www.rx7club.com/attachment.p...1&d=1256514769

I have a question - unrelated. As I was taking thee picture above, I noticed one of the metal tubes is connected to nothing. Is it perhaps a vent from one of the other solenoid valves?

https://www.rx7club.com/attachment.p...1&d=1256515172

Thanks.

Yep, that's normal.

Can't wait to see the outcome, as I have a FJO boost controller (see attached) that I'd like to setup on my stock twins still running sequentially.

:-) neil

any word from Ballengar Motorsports?

His last message last Friday

--------------

Sandro,

You will probably get yours first based on the locations. You will want to check for terminal alignment and that the seal is being properly utilized as this was a questionable issue for this connector application based on the mold on the parts themselves.
James Ballenger

----------------

He is referring to the sample I got from Tyco. I then kept in the loop by sharing my findings over the weekend - that these are indeed the right connectors and sent copy of the pics. But he has not replied yet.

so he ordered samples too? those Greddy/Apex'i solenoids are so common I'm sure he'd be able to sell various kits

Not sure exactly what he meant...but probably just that it would take longer for him to get the sample than for me, based on location.

Great news! BMostorsport will be stocking the AMP connectors, both male and female.

see email below

- Sandro

---------------------------
Sandro,

Looks good. We can make pigtails and should have both the male and female sides in stock in a few more days here. We have the terminals and seals already and will be getting the housings and lock plates shortly.

The descriptions might change a little but the pigtail part numbers are below. They should be added to the website in a few days:
CONN-85729 2 - Way Boost Control Solenoid Plug Pigtail, Black
CONN-85730 2 - Way Boost Control Solenoid Receptacle Pigtail, Black


Regards,

James Ballenger
----------------------------

well that pretty much makes the Apex'i boost control kit an even more expensive and almost worthless product, even for non sequential owners

I would really like to see how your boost control tuning changes from switching both precontrol and wastegate to these inexpensive 3 port units

We'll see it...

I was thinking of ways of making easy back to back comparisons/logs between the OE/PFC boost control based on 2-way bleed valves and these 3-way MAC valves.

I got a small 3-port manual valve today (Humphrey TAC) and was thinking on plumbing the tubes like this

https://www.rx7club.com/attachment.p...1&d=1256692988

The dotted line indicates the OE feed.

The manual valve is toggle operated. At first I thought I could use the second MAC valve for that but I did not like the idea of keeping the solenoid continually energized.

I am also thinking of installing an electrical switch to send the PFC signal either to the OE bleed valve or to the MAC valve. I will make short extensions using the AMP connectors and make the switch easily accessible. This way, I won't have to remove IC cross pipe and pressure tank to access connect/disconnect the OE solenoids.

The MAC and the manual valve could be located somewhere near the WG feed line an still use relatively short tubes.

Any comments or suggestions?

By the way, the MAC valve impedance is like 27-28 ohm. I forgot to measure the OE solenoids impedance when I took pictures last weekend. I remember reading that the the OE solenoid impedance should be around 30 ohm. If that is the case, the 2-3 ohm difference should not be a problem for the PFC, I guess. No need to add resistors, right?

Once done with the post transition, if it works, I will then look at the PC. Right now, this seems to be working quite well as it is - although I guess the WG controlled by the MAC valve may affect the primary, before transition as well.

But I share your view that it would be great if we could make it work with two independently tunable controls, PC and WG separately.

Thanks,

Sandro

Was there supposed to be a diagram posted? Whenever I try to post a picture I always click "preview" first.

Don't know what happened... I swear I saw the pic in my preview... It may have to do that I keep getting disconnected while typing, then asked to log in again, then i don't know...

I any event...this is the sketch of the plumbing

https://www.rx7club.com/attachment.p...1&d=1256744529

It does not show the wiring for sending the signals from the PFC. I will use a toggle switch DPDT ON-OFF-ON for that.

The first ON will send the PFC signal to the stock bleed solenoids. In that position, the ports 1-2 of the manual valve shall be aligned (boost feed to the actuator).

Switch OFF and ports 1-2 aligned in the manual valve can be used to further confirm that boost creep is not due to unported WG. Since the bleed valve is NC when de-energized, this is like capping the outlet from the actuator with a switch...

The second ON of the switch will send the PFC signal to the MAC solenoid - while the manual valve shall have now be switched to have the ports 2-3 aligned.

With the MAC solenoid running (through your combination of switches), the bleed line will still be there on the wastegate actuator, but as you said the factory wastegate solenoid will be closed. I wonder if having that extra volume of air to fill will affect response? Also, will you have a switch to direct the PFC duty signal to either the factory 2 way solenoid or the MAC 3 way solenoid?

I mean if it were me I wouldn't go through with that level of complexity because it throws a bunch of extra plumbing & wiring which could require additional troubleshooting. The extra length of hoses could also cause a pressure drop, but I have no idea how much it would be and whether there would be a noticeable difference in the performance to the system. I know that to an extent you are doing this setup just for the hell of it, to see if you can get it to work more than anything. And I understand that.

Thanks for your comments.

The idea was to have a way of comparing the two systems "on the fly" - i.e. taking several logs with various target pressure and duty settings - with no need for redoing the plumbing in between or upon second guessing.

You have a point with the bleed line while using the MAC valve. A way of looking at it is that the bleed line volume will contribute to the overall volume of the WG actuator (since the OE bleed valve will be de-energized and closed). I don't know if such volume is relevant or just a fraction of the WG actuator, but at least qualitatively it certainly will slow down both the fill and the vent of the actuator somehow.

As for the electrical switch, yes I am planning on using a DPDT toggle switch with 6 terminals. 2 of the terminals are the "common" connected to the harness female plug - i.e. the DC pulse signal from the PFC. The other couple of terminals will be connected to the OE 2-way bleed valve solenoid and to the the MAC solenoid.

I am planning on placing the DPDT switch close to the manual pneumatic 3-port valve. This rig could be installed on the passenger side rail, not that far from the WG actuator to minimize the volume of extra piping, but still be easily accessible to flip the two toggles.

And you are right. I am doing all of this just for the hell of it...

But...it's also your fault... your thread on the seq boost control and the Datalogit

- Sandro

OE style connectors now available at Ballanger Motorsports
 

Ermail received yesterday

-------------------------------------------
Sandro,

We have listed the parts online with the links below:

Connector only:
http://www.bmotorsports.com/shop/pro...oducts_id/1675
http://www.bmotorsports.com/shop/pro...oducts_id/1670

Connector Kit (with loose terminals and seals):
http://www.bmotorsports.com/shop/pro...oducts_id/1671
http://www.bmotorsports.com/shop/pro...oducts_id/1672

Connector Pigtail (pre-assembled with 12" leads):
http://www.bmotorsports.com/shop/pro...oducts_id/1673
http://www.bmotorsports.com/shop/pro...oducts_id/1674
---------------------------------------------

If the tests are successful, can you make a new thread with a simplified writeup for swapping out both precontrol and wastegate solenoids? Explain the setup, list the parts needed, explain the routing diagram, etc.--aimed toward a general audience.

Absolutely!

I was also thinking of logging pressure in the actuators. They may provide good information v. the pressure in manifold. I guess I could use a couple of MAP sensors and send the signals to the Datalogit.

I sent a couple of PM. Ttey seem to be selling for $25 or $30 delivered. Does anyone reading this thread have a spare one?

- Sandro

Sandro - how's the setup working ?

:-) neil

It has been working very well in all these years Neil.

- Sandro

Wonderful. I just ordered a set of two MAC solenoids and will use them to control boost on the BNR's in sequential mode.

Any caveats/hints ? I'm using a PFC.

:-) neil

I use the MAC to control the WG actuator but have kept the OE bleeding valve for the PC actuator (and the plumbing unchanged, including retaining the pill to the PC actuator feed). It is just that I was able to make this work well this way and never tried using a different configuration for the PC actuator. A blocking valve like the MAC kind of "double" the gain. The actuator moves quicker and theoretically it could "overshoot" (Not a problem for the WG, just a theoretical question mark for the PC operation). You will have to do some testing and study the logs. For what is worth, these are the settings I use on my PFC (usually the second setting):

P1 0.95 67 (boost target and initial duty)
S1 0.90 82

P2 1.00 70
S2 0.95 87

Have fun!

- Sandro

It's work great for me all summer long with PFC and stock turbo in sequentiel mode!

Attachment 689400

Attachment 689401

Nice !!!

What settings work for you on the PFC? I too, have stock turbo, sequential of course...

- Sandro

Will check that this week! The car is in winter storage in my garage with no battery ;)

This winter i reinstall my knightsport rf420 twin sequentiel!

I'm having a brain-fart! I assume you're making these changes in the FC Edit/Datalogit software, correct ?

If so, where in the FC Edit (screen shot) ?

Thanks,
:-) neil