Silex

Our dreams have been shattered .

GoRacer

iTrader: (2)

$8,000.00 Why, why, oh why

Please send $1 to Homer Simpson for the Border Racing foundation for under privileged RX7 owners.

Anybody know a horny rich old lady "lol"

Beast From The East

I've cross-posted the results from my first drag runs - had a little problem not being able to get past 12 lbs boost. New wastegate springs on the way.

Beast

https://www.rx7club.com/forum/showth...5&pagenumber=2

Beast From The East

Well, so far the numbers from the car are not much better than stock. I'm hoping that as others have mentioned, the real good numbers will come as boost goes up past the point where the stockers are efficient, which general consensus seems to think is right around 14~15 lbs. Happily we are now going to be able to test this theory, as we found the boost issue with the car today. Chris at Checkpoint took about an hour to figure out It wasn't the wastegates - he wired those shut and still couldn't get the car to get past 12lbs of boost. He finally figured out that the bypass solenoid that vents boost from the pre-spooled secondary turbo when the throttle plate in the Y-pipe is still shut was stuck open and venting boost at all times. Basically the PFC was still operating the solenoid dutifully thinking it is in sequential mode. Sorry, Apexi, but you're in parallel now, so he plugged that bypass off, and suddenly we were boosting away happily. I adjusted my boost controller a bit and presto - we're building boost quickly and holding steady at 1.04 kg/cm^2, which equates to 14.79lbs of boost. And what a surprise, the car is much faster :-) I'll do some fine tuning to get to between 15 and 16 lbs which is the limit of the stock MAP sensor, then I'm ready for the drags again.

I'm busy for the next several Wednesday nights, so I'm thinking I'll attend a Friday Test and Tune at the Sac raceway. This time I'll only have 1/4 of a tank of gas, I'll soften only the front shocks, and run about 25lbs in the tires. I might also get in touch with a forum member who offered to let me use his BFG drag radials. If you're a local Sacramento rotary enthusiast, please come out and bring your ride - when I was there last time there were only two FDs and one FC, which was kind of disappointing.

After we see what those numbers reveal, I'll be off to the dyno for more tuning and bhp runs. With current afrs of low to mid 10s I'm sure I can pull a tad bit of fuel out of my upper maps and still be safe, and we also think there are a couple of degrees of timing we can add in the low boost areas to improve spool up. If I am not able to hit my goal of 400rwhp after tuning, then I will get a three-bar MAP sensor and keep turning up the boost until I get there. It might be that I still need to run boost levels that are close to the big single boys in order to get those big numbers.

I just want a 12 second car on street tires that is reliable, can handle, doesn't cost $225K, looks stock to the emissions boys, and beats up on other cars that do cost six-figures ... is that too much to ask?

On a final note, Checkpoint has their new website up, but the pictures of the new hybrid that were put up are not very good. The whole site needs work, so don't be too harsh on them - they have many pictures that are better but their web designer didn't put them up the first time. The site is www.checkpointmotors.net. My car will eventually be in the 'Project Car' section. Also, the hybrid turbos are rated to 400 bhp on the site, but this is theory only until my car proves it out. Don't get too excited over what number is being used until I have dyno numbers to back it up. If I can't achieve that, then I'm certainly going to recommend they amend it since it would be tantamount to false advertising.

I invite your comments, and hope to see you at the races! I'll be at Laguna Seca next month for ALMS as well. A little bird told me that Cam Worth might actually make it to that race, btw......would be nice to see him back on the track in the Touring class.....

Beast

r_ed_line53

if you're doing 13's on street tires @ over 112 mph, you definitely have a 12 second car. Unfortunately you need the tires to put the power down to the gravel with such a light contructed vehicle.


see ya,

car 53

Styk33

I ran 12.8@114 with the stock turbos at 7psi. That was on crappy Yoko A520s. Traction was only an issue coming out of the hole, shifting did not get as much as a chirp from the tires.

12s is about all you can ask for on normal tires. There are only a few of us that like to drive around on drag radials

If you go on a Friday let me know, I am usually availible.

Team503

I would agree with that - I pulled a 13.304 at 109.8 on my first pass in four years and first pass in the Seven at Houston Raceway Park.

Ambient temps were over 100deg, my tires are $50 cheapie specials (soon to be replaced, so no preaching), I'm on stock turbos with a VERY mild street port, and only boosting 10lbs.

My mods are viewable at http://team503.nivenhuh.net/fd if you're curious.

My ~110mph traps are good for 12.8 or so. And the car really hasn't had much done - hell, the ECU is still stock (also on it's way, so lay off! ).

I'm going to concentrate on appearance and stereo for a while, and getting the saftey things done (8pt cage, scattershield, etc) before I worry about more power.

I usually eat VR-4s, SS's, WS-6's, Supras, and the like for breakfast. Lunch is modded cars, and dinner is just a set of twisties.

Beast From The East

All -

It looks like many folks are interested in my setup, since Checkpoint has been getting phone calls, mostly asking for how much power and how much money. In order to answer the power questions, Checkpoint called me and offered to get a quick dyno run done for me just to establish some base-line numbers (without any tuning yet). What the heck, it was free, so I gave them the car this morning.

They did two quick runs. The first run discovered yet another boost leak stemming from the fast idle hose that runs into the back of the intake elbow. For those of us using the Greddy elbow there is no attachment nipple, and we were informed by a reputable source that we could just leave it unattached. Wrong - it vents boost, and needs to be replumbed into the intake. It was pinched off temporarily for the second dyno run, and I have an appointment for next Wednesday to get the new nipple welded onto the elbow.

Here are the numbers from the last run:

330.6 rwhp@7189rpm, 264 ft lbs @5814rpm at 16 lbs. boost, fourth gear pull, 91 octane pos California pump gas.

My wideband indicated that I had the car way too rich, with afr's less than 10.2 - the car was beginning to sputter and pop due to too much fuel. I'm just paranoid to blow the motor, so I jacked them too high. It's also is using the same ignition maps initially set by Ray at SR, when I used the stock turbos. Also remember that I have stock porting on this motor.

Intake temps stayed steady even at full boost, just using one of those little fans blowing in the intake mouth of the front. Unlike the stockers, where the manifold glowed red hot after a run, the manifold stayed a normal color and the piping for the i/c was still cool enough to touch after the charge went through the i/c. (it was sizzling warm on the pipe going into the i/c, but cool afterwards).

Overall, I'm very happy, and optimistic that 400 rwhp is available using this setup. I need to take out fuel, adjust timing, and conduct other tuning activities to get there, We also feel we need to get to ~18 lbs of boost to achieve the number, which is where the turbo builder believes is the efficiency sweet spot for this setup. This will mean a 3 bar MAP sensor and a complete reprogramming of the PFC, I would imagine. If anyone out there has experience with a 3 bar MAP sensor and the PFC, I would appreciate your input as to what I need to do to get it to work.

Speaking of which, after seeing some of the Forum threads and pictures of the GT 35/40 single set-ups, I thought that there was no way that this hybrid twin uses them - the twin housings are just too small. So, I asked Checkpoint to get the right info from the builder, to make sure I'm not giving out false info. Sure enough, this setup is NOT 35/40 - they tried to use that wheel initially, but it was too big for the stock housings no matter how much they were machined. It uses Garrett cartridges with a '60 trim' compressor wheel (which I'm told is similar to a T04B or E size). They are not like the GT30 twins sold by M2. I apologize to the list and big single folks who may have been wondering 'how the hell did he get two of those things in there'?

The turbo builder and Checkpoint are reluctant to release any more info about the turbos, such as exhaust wheel and the custom welding, as it is proprietary.

The dyno has the two runs from today AND the old dyno run from when I used the main cat and stock sequential setup, also running too rich. The red dotted line is my old one before the turbos, the red solid line is the first run, and the green solid line is the last. The elimination of the sequential swichover is the most noticeable difference, besides the upshift in the power, of course :-) You can see the upgraded twins catch the bhp and torque of the quick spooling stockers by ~ 3000 rpm.

I'll keep you all posted on the next race and dyno runs after tuning.....thanks for your interest, and rotor on.....

Beast

Beast From The East

All -

It looks like many folks are interested in my setup, since Checkpoint has been getting phone calls, mostly asking for how much power and how much money. In order to answer the power questions, Checkpoint called me and offered to get a quick dyno run done for me just to establish some base-line numbers (without any tuning yet). What the heck, it was free, so I gave them the car this morning.

They did two quick runs. The first run discovered yet another boost leak stemming from the fast idle hose that runs into the back of the intake elbow. For those of us using the Greddy elbow there is no attachment nipple, and we were informed by a reputable source that we could just leave it unattached. Wrong - it vents boost, and needs to be replumbed into the intake. It was pinched off temporarily for the second dyno run, and I have an appointment for next Wednesday to get the new nipple welded onto the elbow.

Here are the numbers from the last run:

330.6 rwhp@7189rpm, 264 ft lbs @5814rpm at 16 lbs. boost, fourth gear pull, 91 octane pos California pump gas.

My wideband indicated that I had the car way too rich, with afr's less than 10.2 - the car was beginning to sputter and pop due to too much fuel. I'm just paranoid to blow the motor, so I jacked them too high. It's also is using the same ignition maps initially set by Ray at SR, when I used the stock turbos. Also remember that I have stock porting on this motor.

Intake temps stayed steady even at full boost, just using one of those little fans blowing in the intake mouth of the front. Unlike the stockers, where the manifold glowed red hot after a run, the manifold stayed a normal color and the piping for the i/c was still cool enough to touch after the charge went through the i/c. (it was sizzling warm on the pipe going into the i/c, but cool afterwards).

Overall, I'm very happy, and optimistic that 400 rwhp is available using this setup. I need to take out fuel, adjust timing, and conduct other tuning activities to get there, We also feel we need to get to ~18 lbs of boost to achieve the number, which is where the turbo builder believes is the efficiency sweet spot for this setup. This will mean a 3 bar MAP sensor and a complete reprogramming of the PFC, I would imagine. If anyone out there has experience with a 3 bar MAP sensor and the PFC, I would appreciate your input as to what I need to do to get it to work.

Speaking of which, after seeing some of the Forum threads and pictures of the GT 35/40 single set-ups, I thought that there was no way that this hybrid twin uses them - the twin housings are just too small. So, I asked Checkpoint to get the right info from the builder, to make sure I'm not giving out false info. Sure enough, this setup is NOT 35/40 - they tried to use that wheel initially, but it was too big for the stock housings no matter how much they were machined. It uses Garrett cartridges with a '60 trim' compressor wheel (which I'm told is similar to a T04B or E size). They are not like the GT30 twins sold by M2. I apologize to the Forum and big single folks who may have been wondering 'how the hell did he get two of those things in there'?

The turbo builder and Checkpoint are reluctant to release any more info about the turbos, such as exhaust wheel and the custom welding, as it is proprietary.

The dyno has the two runs from today AND the old dyno run from when I used the main cat and stock sequential setup, also running too rich. The red dotted line is my old one before the turbos, the red solid line is the first run, and the green solid line is the last. The elimination of the sequential swichover is the most noticeable difference, besides the upshift in the power, of course :-) You can see the upgraded twins catch the bhp and torque of the quick spooling stockers by ~ 3000 rpm.

Unfortunately I just discovered that the dyno .gif is about 550kb, over the limit that I can attach. I'll see if my buddy can host it on his site. If not, maybe he can scruntch it down.

I'll keep you all posted on the next race and dyno runs after tuning.....thanks for your interest, and rotor on.....

Beast

artguy

fantastic news...

how do these turbos differ from the m2 set??

i sent you a pm...take a look if ya get a chance

j

fdracer

beast just get a boost controller like the avc-r or something. it'll come w/ the 3 bar map and you don't have to use the pfc to control boost. personally, you're setup doesn't seem too good as the stock manifold will choke the turbos. with what you paid why don't you go w/ a custom long tubular manifold. w/o the sequential system there really is no point in using the stock manifold. w/ you're current setup, a single gt3540 w/ a properly tuned exhaust manifold will blow you outta the water and spool just as quick.

Beast From The East

fdracer - please read my ealier posts on this thread (and another one called 'why go single when you can go custom twin?"). That will clear up some things for you, such as why the manifold is not a choke point any more (it's been rewelded and the plumbing is changed), why we in California can't go with single turbos, etc.

I'm also not using the PFC for boost control - I'm using Pettit's old dial-a-boost system.

I'm certain that a single 35/40 and this setup will be comparable once tuned correctly.

thx.

Beast

am3210

Stop teasing!
What's the price?
Where's the Pics?
Where "my" set?

Beast From The East

Please take into consideration that you will need more than just these turbos (fuel/computer mods, i/c and exhaust mods, boost control, etc.) to get everything you can out of this setup.

Checkpoint will be putting better pictures of the unit on their site later.

http://www.checkpointmotors.net/Prod...ail.asp?pID=14

Beast From The East

Checkpoint is beginning to get some better pictures of the hybrid twin setup, including an intake opening compared to stock, the second wastegate, the y-pipe collar, and what the turbos look like hung on the engine. There are all pictures of my turbo and motor.

http://www.checkpointmotors.net/Gallery.asp?albumID=7

We just ordered the 3 bar map sensor from Ray at SR and he'll walk us through the settings on the PFC. After that it's a bit more boost, more dyno tuning and hopefully 400 rwhp out of twins :-)

Did anyone else out there ever get to 400 rwhp with a twin setup? I know there are many out there doing it on big singles......


Beast

fdracer

i already read your earlier posts, and i'm saying it's still a bad manifold to have. log manifolds don't cut it for high hp, no matter how unrestrictive they are. as exhaust gasses from both rotors flow through the manifold they crash into each other and cause all sorts of bad things to hurt airflow. they cause reversion, swirling, eddies, dead spots in some parts and high pressure in others. go look at the most technologically advanced turbo race cars out there, they have long smooth primaries w/ good taper at the collector which help increase hp and have faster spool up. i'll say it again the only reason to stay w/ the stock manifold is to have the sequential setup. you need to invest in a good manifold design, it'll be worth it.

Beast From The East

OK, what design would you propose that would not tip off the smog folks to a modification? I'm not a turbo expert by any stretch of the imagination - I'm learning as I go here. Remembering that we in Kalifornia have visual emissions rules to follow, how could I make such a manifold and have it not get noticed?

Beast

fdracer

true, i just think that's a lot of money to spend to use a crap log manifold. but you're right, that's exactly the reason why i've got the stock twins on my street car.

Beast From The East

Yeah, that's the rub - I'd have gone single this last time around if it wasn't for Kalifornia rules. I agree that there are much better designs we could work from, but this is the hand that we've been dealt. After seeing the glow of the sequential stock system at 15lbs, and the massive amounts of heat it generated, I swore I'd figure out a way to get to 400 rwhp and still be able to pass emissions at the pipe and visually without having to do massive amounts of parts swapping. I'm hoping this is the trick:-).

You should see the manifold at 16 lbs - it's normal colored and beautiful, not glowing cherry-red.

3 bar is coming, then 18 lbs, tuning, and we're home free (hopefully).

Beast

artguy

hey boys...beast..good thing you are paving the way...Ive been chugging at this and feel like i am my own r&d team.

fdracer is very knowledgable...more so than I...he has a good point...but I agree with both of you.

anyhow..I spoke with checkpoint today..Im going to pick up a map sensor and a better boost controller for the pfc...then Ill be ready...after fdracer and I get the car tuned to a better degree I will take my car up to checkpoint and leave it with them to tune to a higher degree and also to let them handle the timing.

fdracer...I added even more fuel to that lean area in the maps...the car is getting more responsive...noticably...thanks for the help...we should hook up this weekend or something...I owe you some beers...plus Im curious to see what the new afr's are now that Ive added so much fuel.

I was also cautioned against waiting to tune down the rich spots...as you say "yer rich as hell bro!!" I think it might be smart to back off those rich spots before that crazy driving to get that afr map filled up again.


anyhow...this is the kind of stuff ya deal with when doing a setup like this...there are only a handful of knowledgable people who have done it and most dont have a lot of time...or in the case of my local authorized apexi tuner they just dont give a shi#.

checkpoint had very good info...my only concern is his belief that the 1300s and the nippondenso will put out enuff fuel for 400hp and 18-20lbs of boost...the guys on the single turbo forum and ray at sr both did not think I would. I guess we will find out how high we can go on the 80-85 percent inj duty and the fuel pressures that the rp pump provides.

j

Beast From The East

Ah, so you boys are both down in the the separate state of SoCal :-) Cool. Artguy has my phone number so we can all chat sometime. I'm happy to share knowledge with someone else trying to do the same thing.

I'm going to start pulling out fuel this weekend from the top end - a wideband is a beautiful thing. I'm also going to put my fuel maps and timing maps in a spreadsheet - we can swap numbers. You have dataloggit? I'm going to get it once my company installs Windows 2000 on my laptop (I'll be a beta tester). I currently have NT and the USB ports are disabled:-(

I'll let you know how the 3 bar install goes.

Beast

artguy

hahah...sorry..other FD RACER ...ray is the fdracer Im speaking of...sorry guy...

there better not be another artguy out there too..haha..not that anyone would want that name.


j

Beast From The East

Ok, here it is shrunk down enough to post on the Forum. The red dotted line was my old stockers (with stock injectors) and main cat. The red line is the new twins at 14lbs of boost, running 10.2 afr (too rich), then the green line at 16lbs still running too rich.

Beast

artguy

nice info....you have a lot of tuning to do it seems...you should be up near 365hp at 16lbs Iwould think...probably have some timing to play with..am i right?

anyhow...its looking better...cant wait to see it tuned for 20lbs and with the right afrs

I spent the evening tuning my car with fd racer...we made a lot of progress...still have a ways to go...should be able to run 16lbs in another week with all the correct afr's. after that I will do a dyno pull and we can see how the setups compare on the dyno graphs.

laters

j

Beast From The East

Hey, Gordon, maybe you can clear something up for me on this. Motorsport Dynamics uses a dyno that bolts to the rear hubs and has two hydralic systems to control the load and rpms (that is what I used for this). How does this differ from a 'dynojet'? I've heard quite a bit of debate about roller dynos vs. bolt-up dynos vs. inertial dynos and their accuracy. One thing that was told to me was that the dyno I was using was 'more accurate' or produced less inflated numbers than a dyno-jet, but frankly I don't know what or who to believe. You seem to have an opinon on this based on your comments above - can you clear this up for me?

thx.

Beast