ABS or no ABS for my fd
 

I'm considering removing the ABS from my fd. I'm in the middle of my 20b swap and I've already removed AC went to a manual rack removed washer fluid bottle and pump. there are no emission checks here so going with a straight exhaust SS downpipe and aluminum midpipe and catback. I've pulled the spare tire and tools. no moon roof or bose as its a base model. I've pulled the padding from under the carpet and the rear speakers radio antenna motor and no rear wiper (factory) and i removed the front wipers as the car is not my daily and wont ever see bad weather because of street slicks. i;m considering removing the ABS just to remove the excess weight but I cant decide if it will be to dangerous for a car that will be used on the streets ( good weather only) or if going without ABS jsut takes some getting use to.

Its your choice a lot of people here will tell you it is very dangerous but i removed mine. I own one car with abs, my miata and numerous fc's I've had never had it and I never been in any accidents.

I personally think ABS is more of a danger than a safety feature. If it is working that means you are driving wrong. If it breaks then its cutting your brakes when you need them most.

i don't recall the last time i ever had the ABS activate on a 7 outside of the track. but on street slicks it may be in your benefit to keep it, it's only a few lbs of weight savings for less than a 10th second difference.

Use your abs! Actually stand on the brakes and see how it reacts, it is easier to do on gravel or other slick surfaces. Then decide. For me it is preferred because quite often things come up and you need to panic stop, abs will stop quicker with out loosing control than the driver can unless he is very aware of what is going on. it is possible that some race drivers would actually prefer it on the track. Most of my "on the edge" driving is off pavement and it would get in the way, But even than if there was some way to have it for commuting and turn off to play that is what I would opt for. Lost one very nice FC because I tapped the pedal a bit too hard and rotated, once you lock them it is sometimes impossible to recover.

2 years no ABS in the FD. Own many cars that don't have it. Learn to drive. But it's your car do what you like, not the opinion of others.

I drove the FD and all my cars previously without ABS , there have been many flat spotted tires in my life LOL .. I fixed the ABS in the FD and its the first car I've had with working ABS now But I havent taken it to the track since .. I know that threshold braking is hard to learn and you can always OOPS it and lock up

No ABS here. My water injection tank now resides where it once was. I have gotten on the brakes pretty hard without a lockup. I don't track my car but feel it's not needed for my driving style.

There are a few other good threads with discussion on this.

People drove for decades without abs. Saying no abs is dangerous is like saying real wheel drive is dangerous. You just need to adjust to driving without it.

If this is a street car that doesn't see track time, just leave the ABS alone because you WILL panic when the tires lockup unless your experienced in driving a car without ABS on the track.

If this is a track car, the choice is obvious. Remove the damn thing, you will go faster.

thewird

Sooner or later this kind of thing is going to court. I'd hate for anyone to have to argue that their removal of safety equipment wasn't proximate cause for someone's injury.

I use to think it was a bad idea but I think I probably will just have to get use to it if I end up doing it. granted if someone panics and slams on the brakes it could be a bad deal. but saying people have driven for decades without it is a good point. I use to think that power steering was necessary too and then I drove my buddies deuce and a half without it and it wasnt a problem and God knows how much it weighs. which is why I was able to talk myself into doing the manual rack for my car.

What a great idea! Next time someone crashes in to me I am going to ask them to open their hood and say look you have no abs I am taking you to court!

My miata was made seven years later and does not have abs...get real people.

My 2005 echo has no ps. My sienna is without abs and I'm not planning on fixing it. If my fd had no abs I could care less.

A really good driver who is paying close attention ( as in coming up on a corner on the track) perhaps can out brake a working abs. But if you think that you can do that on a curvy wet road when some kid or a cow jumps out in front of you, you have been into the wrong drugs. Lets get real here, none of us are supermen. As for the argument against it cause we all put many miles on without it-- I have driven many miles, on bias plies (often bald), blowouts were common, had no seat belts. And on and on. some things are just plain better, show me that you can out break abs in a curve with the road snow packed and perhaps you will be listened to.

Why do people keep assuming that the ABS in a 20 year old car is the same as one in a modern car? The ABS in the FD is ok, not amazing at all. It will do the job in a straight line where your typical, "oh shit, must brake" panic situation would happen. Try relying on it fully in a corner on any slippery surface and your plowing straight off the road.

thewird

The FD doesn't have very sophisticated ABS by modern standards. That being said, it's really there for when you are braking and have more traction on one side of the vehicle than the other.

https://www.rx7club.com/attachments/...bs_purpose-png

If one tire on one side of the vehicle has less traction than the other due to bad weather, ABS can apply individual control to the wheel (or axle, in the case of rear wheels for the FD) to keep the vehicle from spinning out.

https://www.rx7club.com/3rd-generati...rolled-978049/

It's better than no ABS at all in that situation. It's not an excuse for driving like an idiot though. You can't go around expecting any computerized system to bail you out, but that doesn't make it useless.

ABS saved my ass the other day. one thing people don't realize, and correct me if i'm wrong, but the main purpose of ABS (if you're just making a panic stop) is to allow you to steer the car while you're standing on the brakes.

without ABS: in a panic stop, you slam on your brakes, and your car starts to skid, you aren't going anwhere but straight.

with ABS: in a panic stop, you can slam on your brakes AND steer the car away from what you are going to hit.

My first abs was a 89 jeep and it was amazing, I did test it on snow packed roads- in curves, straights, and even down hill. If you have used an abs and see no advantage it is because you have never actually used it, they do have some disadvantages but so far none of them have been mentioned here. From what has been said here any of you who remove it for street use are leaving yourselves open for a law suit if you are ever in an accident even if it was not due to the brakes.

No law suit is going to be brought up. In 93-95 abs was not mandatory it was more of a feature. If you smash someone it is you fault no one is going to check your car for abs.

You don't see people going around and saying you have bald tires you better change those before you get a lawsuit on your hands.

What people are going around and saying isn't really the standard for negligence.

Is saving a few pounds worth the potential risk(unknown driving ability) of totaling your car?

I wonder what would happen in a head to head battle of braking ABS vs Non Abs. I bet the abs car would stop faster.

But in the real world there are too many variables. I have personally seen people take there foot off the brake because it was vibrating. My girlfriend parents cars both have the abs light on. One car they just took the fuse out, the other has been in and out of the shop to fix it but it still randomly kicks on.

Now these cars are made in the 2000's just imagine all the older or even newer cars that people simply just remove the fuse. In fact this is more dangerous then actually removing the abs and installing a proportioning valve. I haven't even seen a working abs in a fd to tell you the truth.

Come to where I live in the country and try to use that abs on these snow covered roads I will gaurantee you will stop faster without an abs. With that extra 10 feet it could save you from an accident.

Now onto the lawsuit, we all know taking a car to a shop to fix something brake related is very expensive so a lot of people just run their car as is. Is someone really going to do a full inspection in an accident and find out the abs was not working and then sue them? I think not.

Everyone just blows this out of proportion if you want to remove it then remove it you are not going to get sued or instantly get in an accident because you don't have it.

Now I do have abs in my subaru but I have never had it kick in. Probably because all those times without abs made me a more cautious driver during bad conditions. I am definately not a pro driver but my driving record is clean of accidents.

Also to add my girlfriend drives the miata without abs in rain, snow, sandstorm, or sleet. So if she can do it so can you!

the weather matter is unlikely I dont even have windshield wipers if it rains the car is parked or If I need to get it home in the rain I'm calling AAA. but the panic factor is a good point though. thanks for info guys its a lot to think about

If you're only objective is to avoid accidents that will happen the instant that you remove your ABS, then I agree that this is excellent advice. But in the real world, where one accident can result in millions of dollars in medical bills (or loss of life) you can bet your ass that plaintiff's attorneys are going to be salivating over the fact that you removed an accident avoiding safety device. If I'm on the plaintiff's side and I'm going after your savings or your house, there's no way I'm not putting that in front of the jury.

Abs was not mandatory back then so it was a feature. My brother was in an accident which did kill someone it wasn't his fault but they didnt do a strip down of the car. Why? because he wasn't held liable and simply they don't do that.

Now lets say you do happen to get in an accident which is your fault. Having abs isnt somehow going to save you it was your fault in the first place. That is what insurance is for, it pays out liability.

My miata doesn't have abs are you going sue me because i didnt pick the higher package? Sounds ridiculous huh?

no abs here, LOVE the pedal feel i think my bias is set to about 60/40 f/r

In the UK, unless you declare the fact you've removed your ABS (And pay a higher premium assuming they will even insure you), your insurance is invalid.

Easy solution, don't get into an accident. If your going to remove the ABS, have the logic to learn how to use your brakes without thinking. Go to a few track days, get the feel for it.

But honestly, there is no point to removing it unless your tracking the car and it has nothing to do with the weight. It doesn't weigh that much.

thewird

They do that here in the U.S. well they don't raise your insurance they call it a discount if you have things like abs and air bags. Just treat it like it came that way from factory.

haha better get some rainx

that stuff works amazingly If it's hurricane rain then you don't even need the wipers :nod:

I was wondering, first you own 1 car with abs, then you have a Subaru with ABS, then your ole lady drives a Miata with out abs. These are slighty conflicting facts.

In Ice conditions I could see abs being annoying and having longer stoping distances but you can pull the fuse not the hole thing. Who the hell drive their FD on Ice??

But on dry/wet pavement in a panic stop situation like, your doing 140mph and a car pulls out in front of you, abs will save your ass and your tires, flat spots suck. Look at formula 1 racing, even those cats lock up the brakes in panic/crash situations and they are top notch drivers.

No one is going to sue you because you don't have ABS. They are going to sue you because they think that they can prove that your actions resulted in their harm. Modifying your car in a way that makes it less safe helps them make that case.

This is the worst misconception about ABS.
No driver can "out-brake" ABS. Not even the FD's 20yr old abs.
ABS only activates after the wheel speed sensors detect slippage, in which case the human has already lost. ABS modulates brake pressure faster than any human alive. What it doesn't do well is approach the limit gracefully.

If it's not about pedal feel and at-the-limit racing, keep the ABS.

Forget the lawsuits. Ignore your Machismo. The fact is the abs will stop the car quicker than a human can and do it while still letting you have directional control and contrary to what has been claimed here it will do it on slick roads, even ice. If it is going to be a driver keep the abs functional cuz it may just save your life or the life of someone who is more important. Personally abs would be left on for a track car if the rules allowed it and only removed if there were come valid arguments presented. The exception might be drifting where you may want to use the brakes to lose traction. I do not wish to have it on my buggy that is used off-road as the brakes are used to set-up a drift for the corners. but now that I have enough power to do that with out brakes perhaps they would be an advantage in being able to shut down later. Bottom line-- Keep The Abs unless there is a very good reason for not having it. And certainly keep it on the street.

It's already your fault if you caused an accident no proving anything is needed. No one i repeat no one is going to sue if they have been hit by someone in a modified car.

Cool you know how to misqoute go back and add the rest of the sentence.

What sharing a car is not normal? Pulling the fuse is dangerous it doesn't have the right brake bias your rear tires can lock up before your front. I have driven my fd on ice along with millions of others who don't have abs in there vehicle.

Why are you driving 140mph on a road with others on it? Even if you did have abs that is just stupid.

Go around a snow covered turn hit the abs and see what happens i guarantee you will spin. I witness spinouts on ice all the time according to you the car should be going straight...Have you ever driven a non abs car on the street? If not I don't think you should contribute because all you are making are assumptions of a non abs car.

Yes there are advantages and disadvantages of both but you guys are acting like it is the end of the world when you remove it.

keep it
 

For a street driven car I think it's an advantage even if only for an extreme emergency situation. In a few limited situations like on slick snowy roads it can be an advantage to not have it (since the snow can't pile up in front of the tire with ABS), but in the case of somebody running a light or something it's an advantage to have, abs, even 20 year old variety, works better than skidding front tires. Some lady pulled out of side street without looking while I was on the way to work doing about 50 driving my CRX, I left very long skidmarks and a cloud of smoke on the way up to her door, which I stopped just short of, she then drove off leaving me to thump down the road with flat spotted tires that needed to be replaced.

Am 71 drove most of my life without abs, currently have a superformance S1 with willwoods (no abs) and it is a hand full on slick roads, jump on the brakes with abs in a curve or turn and it will stop while still going where you point it. it will not save you if you are going too fast to make the turn that you are attempting. I have more hours on ice at high speeds than many on dry pavement. And I do test the ability of every system that I get. Have not encountered stability control as yet.

Sounds like you have the wrong tires or you are driving too fast for the conditions. Driving the miata doesnt feel any different than any other car. Maybe I am just more cautious than others and know when to slow down.

Lawsuit talk is worthless here. I like ABS, no the FD system is not the best but it is the second generation ABS and can control the front wheels independently which is great for autox, preventing lock up on the inside front.

I think is a great back up on the street as well, I have stomped the brake pedal in an emergency situation w/o flat spotting the tires.

In the end it is your car and I suspect you already have your mind made up...

Can't out brake abs in a panic stop. Again Watch F1 when they panic stop.

O yea, you mod your car to drive the speed limit, ya....

That's the whole point. If you are being sued for wrongful death or some other civil matter, then the plaintiff has to establish your "fault". There's certainly no good reason that they wouldn't use the fact that you've modified your car to help make that case.

You won't even have time to think of hitting the brake pedal when going 140. Do you really think abs is going to save you at that high of speeds? You will most likely die in that accident.

Do our cars go as fast as f1? Do they handle like f1? Are we racing on winding roads within feet of each other? What is the point of comparing a full out race car in very different settings with a street car?

Having a modified car does not give you the right to drive fast. You are worried about non abs braking but not worried about smashing into someone at 140...Hey guys lets go really fast on a street full of other cars my car is modded and I have abs! I am invincible!

You won't get sued for wrongfull death, If it was proven that they were at fault then it's their fault. My Brother didn't get sued when someone was killed in the accident. They ran a stop sign putting them at fault. The family would have to be crazy to try and make a case of wrongfull death when it was clear what happened.

I could t-bone someone who ran a red light and not even touch the brake. Is it my fault that my reactions were not fast enough? Or were they wrong in running the stop light? I vote running the stop light is in the wrong.


You guys are thinking way far out there it is very unlikely that you are going to get sued over removing abs. If you think that way then you can get sued for running those drag radials, removing bumper supports, lowering your car, different brake rotors, different master cylinders, and so on. They all affect safety.

i thought the point was if it was better to keep it or ditch it, not bitch and argue about legalities.

ABS will assist with control when you don't have time to think about skidding and steering through. it will allow you some control to avoid an accident. on the track it's a different story, some prefer it and some dislike it and want full control. being on street slicks he won't be throwing the car into a corner at 100, so...

the system isn't worth the effort to remove for the minor weight difference/simplification and you may actually thank yourself for keeping it someday. that is what i would tell you if you walked in the door with your scenario.

You don't honestly believe that fault is that easy to determine in every case, do you?

I am not an accident investigator so I don't know. If i was trying to figure out who was at fault I wouldn't be looking what the car is equipped with. I would be looking at skidmark directions and impact points of the cars. Along with witnesses.

Karack is right there is no reason to argue everyone has their views so I am officially done.