99 FD turbos vs 95 BNR s3 turbos
Junior Member
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 15
Likes: 0
From: Dallas, TX
+1 for the 99's, at least compared to the original stockers, for a street car. Fresh turbos and manifold on a street-port is about perfect for me, and the extra torque on the primary completely wakes up the car.
http://robrobinette.com/sae_article.htm
Here's an SAE article which mentions improved torque above 2500 rpm. However, it does say that the 99 twins are only part of the reason for the gains.
Here's an SAE article which mentions improved torque above 2500 rpm. However, it does say that the 99 twins are only part of the reason for the gains.
There is no question that the '99's improve on torque and power over the early '93-95 turbos.
There is no question that the BNR's improve peak power, boost capacity, derability, rebuildablity and ongoing support.
The question is do the BNR's give up any torque/horsepower over any position of the rpm range over the '99's ?
There is no question that the BNR's improve peak power, boost capacity, derability, rebuildablity and ongoing support.
The question is do the BNR's give up any torque/horsepower over any position of the rpm range over the '99's ?
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 30,807
Likes: 648
From: FL-->NJ/NYC again!
^being that the BNRs have larger turbine wheels, you're going to give up low end boost response vs OEM/99 spec. To get a little, you've got to give a little 
Here is my tuning dyno from PFS years ago.
This was with a small (KDR) Street port, '99 turbos... with the small PFS intercooler, stock pullies and airpump, and all the intake emissions crap (double throttle, etc.) in place, but with a DP/Resonated MP/cat back exhaust. The red line is untuned, the blue line is tuned 12 psi, and the green line is 15 psi.
The horsepower numbers are obviously pretty decent, but check out the spool and 306 ft/lbs of torque and 15, and 284 ft/lbs at 12 psi. I've seen strong single-T setups making way more peak HP that make the same or barely more torque at those boost levels.
This was with a small (KDR) Street port, '99 turbos... with the small PFS intercooler, stock pullies and airpump, and all the intake emissions crap (double throttle, etc.) in place, but with a DP/Resonated MP/cat back exhaust. The red line is untuned, the blue line is tuned 12 psi, and the green line is 15 psi.
The horsepower numbers are obviously pretty decent, but check out the spool and 306 ft/lbs of torque and 15, and 284 ft/lbs at 12 psi. I've seen strong single-T setups making way more peak HP that make the same or barely more torque at those boost levels.
Senior Member
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 425
Likes: 4
From: UK
The BNR's are cheaper, and can be repaired. Don't think anyone repairs the OEM turbos that I know of.
The BNR's can run much higher boost. Problem is the support system (solenoids, etc) isn't very reliable over 10psi. There is a solution to the solenoid situation with using better ones.
The achilles heel of the sequential system is all the vac hoses, chambers, solenoids, actuators and check valves. The OEM parts were never designed over 10 psi, and the sequential system is notoriously difficult to understand and fix. It's also hard to get to crammed mostly under the UIM. This is why most people go single turbo.
I'm hoping with the new solenoid setup I'll be able to eliminate the OEM problems of complicated vac hose setups and crappy solenoid problems. Check valves can be upgraded as well to viton.
We'll see what happens, can't hurt trying
The BNR's can run much higher boost. Problem is the support system (solenoids, etc) isn't very reliable over 10psi. There is a solution to the solenoid situation with using better ones.
The achilles heel of the sequential system is all the vac hoses, chambers, solenoids, actuators and check valves. The OEM parts were never designed over 10 psi, and the sequential system is notoriously difficult to understand and fix. It's also hard to get to crammed mostly under the UIM. This is why most people go single turbo.
I'm hoping with the new solenoid setup I'll be able to eliminate the OEM problems of complicated vac hose setups and crappy solenoid problems. Check valves can be upgraded as well to viton.
We'll see what happens, can't hurt trying
thanks in advance
Senior Member
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 425
Likes: 4
From: UK
Great, I have a fresh street ported 13b, hks downpipe, decat, apexi FC, no airpump or AC want to rub the bnrs sequential all stock solinoids but have a profec b type II what else do I need to get them to 18psi?
Senior Member
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 425
Likes: 4
From: UK
Senior Member
Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 526
Likes: 5
From: Atlanta
I run BNR stage 3, Profec S, Rob Bailey's solenoids, 550/1300 injection, FP, PFC, etc. I only run about 15 PSI and have perfect transition and great performance for daily use. The Bailey solenoids aren't available any more, but someone else is making a kit if you search. One of the main benefits of the upgraded solenoids is relocating them so you can easily get test equipment on all the vacuum and pressure lines to test if everything is working properly (or trouble shoot if it is not). For a 350ish RWHP sequential setup this combination works great and there is nothing like the primary turbo power around town for the low end. Anyway, hope this helps.
Just saw the last part of your question. . .Did BNR port your wastegate when you bought the turbos? When I bought mine they included that with the purchase
Just saw the last part of your question. . .Did BNR port your wastegate when you bought the turbos? When I bought mine they included that with the purchase
Last edited by jmadams74; May 18, 2015 at 10:30 AM.
Senior Member
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 425
Likes: 4
From: UK
I run BNR stage 3, Profec S, Rob Bailey's solenoids, 550/1300 injection, FP, PFC, etc. I only run about 15 PSI and have perfect transition and great performance for daily use. The Bailey solenoids aren't available any more, but someone else is making a kit if you search. One of the main benefits of the upgraded solenoids is relocating them so you can easily get test equipment on all the vacuum and pressure lines to test if everything is working properly (or trouble shoot if it is not). For a 350ish RWHP sequential setup this combination works great and there is nothing like the primary turbo power around town for the low end. Anyway, hope this helps.
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 10,672
Likes: 413
From: Charlottesville VA 22901
Yep at anything over 12psi the E or turbo control solenoid spring can stick and at 14 plus PSI it will stick so the aftermarket solenoids are a great option for high boosting sequential twins.
I haven't experienced a set of BNRs yet but I've heard great things
I'm experiencing pure sequential awesomeness with 99 twins though
I haven't experienced a set of BNRs yet but I've heard great things
I'm experiencing pure sequential awesomeness with 99 twins though
Or you can run the stock solenoids like I have done and havent had issues YET but I know they will come eventually. Even tracking my car a few weeks back everything worked great. Buy these two items so the solenoids dont see too much psi and youre good to go.
McMaster Carr part numbers:
48935K25
5346K51
McMaster Carr part numbers:
48935K25
5346K51
Senior Member
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 425
Likes: 4
From: UK
Thanks for the info, another option could be to add resistors in the lines to keep the pressure down to 10psi think you would only need a couple as I am running a simplified seq set up so only have the following solinoids
A/ Pressure Regulator
E/ Turbo Control
F/ Charge Control
H/ Charge Relief
I/ Wastegate
J/ Turbo Precontrol
A/ Pressure Regulator
E/ Turbo Control
F/ Charge Control
H/ Charge Relief
I/ Wastegate
J/ Turbo Precontrol
Senior Member
Joined: Sep 2007
Posts: 425
Likes: 4
From: UK
Sorry I won't be using solenoid A
Just looking at this and I will need 1 restrictor before the pressure chamber as I understand it there is a 10psi restrictor pill in the line between the primary turbo and wastegate control which I will remove to put the boost controller on so I could just use that before the pressure chamber job done
Just looking at this and I will need 1 restrictor before the pressure chamber as I understand it there is a 10psi restrictor pill in the line between the primary turbo and wastegate control which I will remove to put the boost controller on so I could just use that before the pressure chamber job done
Yep at anything over 12psi the E or turbo control solenoid spring can stick and at 14 plus PSI it will stick so the aftermarket solenoids are a great option for high boosting sequential twins.
I haven't experienced a set of BNRs yet but I've heard great things
I'm experiencing pure sequential awesomeness with 99 twins though
I haven't experienced a set of BNRs yet but I've heard great things
I'm experiencing pure sequential awesomeness with 99 twins though
Or you can run the stock solenoids like I have done and havent had issues YET but I know they will come eventually. Even tracking my car a few weeks back everything worked great. Buy these two items so the solenoids dont see too much psi and youre good to go.
McMaster Carr part numbers:
48935K25
5346K51
McMaster Carr part numbers:
48935K25
5346K51
Thanks for the info, another option could be to add resistors in the lines to keep the pressure down to 10psi think you would only need a couple as I am running a simplified seq set up so only have the following solinoids
A/ Pressure Regulator
E/ Turbo Control
F/ Charge Control
H/ Charge Relief
I/ Wastegate
J/ Turbo Precontrol
A/ Pressure Regulator
E/ Turbo Control
F/ Charge Control
H/ Charge Relief
I/ Wastegate
J/ Turbo Precontrol
F/ Charge Control
H/ Charge Relief
I/ Wastegate
and get 2 profec B instead of using E/ Turbo Control, J/ Turbo Precontrol, can someone confirm?