moralesrx7

we dont have a lsx subframe to copy anyway where not using any stock parts show me who else is doing that.....to quote you just extra weight for extremely minimal benefit. in your mind theres still a benefit. even if you think is small, and 15+ years running with out them doesnt prove they wont help just that you didnt try them or think of making them. you still didnt answer my question (these bars tie the subframe together not the susp. and being your buddy knows alot to scca and you know drag would you agree with him that subframe connectors bolt/weld to the susp. points?)

jimlab

Do you have to have a fast car to make up for the extra weight? I'll guarantee without installing them that they don't reduce E.T. or increase trap speed.

moralesrx7

no dont need the 5 hp to make up the 17lbs but those car seem to lift the wheels and twist the frame im sure u figured that out.

jimlab

Me, for one. I've already created an 8.8" Cobra IRS conversion kit and an SBC/LT1 engine cradle, and now I'm working on the first engine cradle that will allow mounting an LS7, not to mention my suspension bushings that were so popular that at least 3 vendors are now selling copies in some shape or form.

All I see from you is a lot of talk and theory. Let me know when you have your parts installed and some data to prove that there's actually a benefit.

No, in my mind there is no benefit. I was allowing for the extremely remote possibility that I might be wrong.

moralesrx7

jim who said that subframe connectors increase performance down the track, where not talking susp. here THESE ARE MADE TO STIFFEN UP THE CHASSIS. they might show improvement when taking off but that it.

jimlab

Like I said, let us know. Other than that, we're done here.

DamonB

Boy, there's this one guy on here all the time who does that. WTF is his name?

moralesrx7

heres a bit of text from a hot rod

* The connectors are hollow but very rigid which reduces weight while giving the same performance benefit.
* Stiffens up the chassis for a better all around performance machine. Great for that visit to the track, or even for spirited street drivers, which all of us are from time to time.
* Optional jacking rails provide several places under the car to jack for faster & easier
* Extra stability added to the lower portion of the sides of the car in case of a side impact crash. Adding rigidity to the frame of the car is always a safety benefit as well as a performance one. We recently witnessed a dragstrip accident involving 2 fox body Mustangs where the nose of one car plowed straight into the passenger side of the other car. The one that received the hit, showed extensive damage to the lower passenger door that could have been lessened with a subframe setup.

moralesrx7

that challenge includes you

DamonB

^ Subframe connectors not legal in Stock or Street Prepared.

moralesrx7

dont have to race legal i just want a review on if you noticed a improvement from the useless product as you call it ( i wonder why they not legal if there useless hmmmm? oh wait does that just apply to the classes you mentioned why cant all class use them...just wondering)

DamonB

^ If you knew even a little bit about what you're spouting off you'd be laughing just like I am right now

dgeesaman

iTrader: (7)

Well you said "check these out" and two veteran forum members did just that.

As for me, I agree that those things aren't worth their weight. Not even close. Yes, a stiffer frame helps handling, in general. Your bar will only help (I'm being generous using the word 'help') stiffen along the length of the car. So how many FDs do you see sagging between the wheels like a ribby old horse? Those bars would not help one iota in controlling chassis twist or camber change.

I would not install these on my car, even for free. I'm a beginning SCCA autox participant, and even I know that's not how to modify my car.

I know some FD owners collect toys for their cars where the idea of a new piece to buy and install and show off is more important than the value or the function. It will appeal to that crowd. It probably is frustrating to spend all that time and money building something nice and finding out the idea is not technically useful, but that's life. Perhaps you should follow the tornado intake marketing model if you need guidance.

Dave

windom

iTrader: (1)

Damn it's hard to read his posts.

dubulup

because like we all said...SOME FREAKIN CARS DO NEED IT!!! And guess what you hard headed mothafawker, the FD is not the only car that races stock or street prepared.


But DamonB please feel free to waste some money, weld 17lbs to your car, disqualifying it, run time only...and give us a review.

moralesrx7

yeah sorry for the grammer.......as far as not helping check the chassis cert for running faster then 9.99 (must have sill bars or subframe connectors on all cars go figure) scca subframe bars are legal solo II Street Modified and Prepared classes as long as bars do not connect to each other (ie cross bars). thanks dubulup you made me see the light. lol

moralesrx7

youve got alot to learn about sub frame connectors please see the pics posted one page back at the bottom of 2 non fd cars, one is 06 gt go tell them that. See what they say, considering thats how all connectors are built. They must have some great marketing to sell that type of product. Keeping in mind that almost everybody that is running unibody cars in the drag world use them.....but they dont do anything right. im done with this ill have some finished sets soon and live right next to waterford hill race track in which there are a couple fd guys there lets see what they have to say (yes i know them, and sorry no there not going to put them on....its winter here) ill keep people updated.

moralesrx7

edit there are 2 classes that they would be legal please explain why....not being a smartass once again i just want to know

moralesrx7

2x post sorry

windom

iTrader: (1)

Not every unibody car is made the same. Some are stiffer than others. I would think it's a generality in drag racing, across the entire board, so safety is all the same. It doesn't mean it necessitates it on the car(s) in question to stiffen the chassis.

jimlab

Maybe you should ask Ari Yallon and others how they've had their FDs NHRA certified for quicker than 9.99 without subframe connectors. (hint: full cage)

Once again, you're talking about something that only applies to certain cars. Not the FD. Do you see a recurring theme here?

No, they don't.

moralesrx7

jim please read more carefully i said that sill bars are needed in a 10pt cage which in turn you wouldnt need subframe connectors but if you dont use sill bars then you do have to use subframe connectors on unibody cars.

and yes i do see that im comparing cars point still stands subframe connectors on any unibody car WILL stiffen up the frame is it worth the 17lbs that up to the person, but 17lbs at the lowest part of the car is nothing in a time attack event (more weight lower to the ground doesnt seem bad imo) where human error is going to cause slower times then 17lbs and in a drag event
ie....... 2700lb car with 250hp will do 13.651 @ 104.65mph
and a 2717lb car with 250hp will do 13.673 @ 104.45mph
wow that 17lbs had a 0.022 second and 0.2 mph change......that right there gives an idea on how some people on this board worry way to much about 17lbs for no reason because they dont know any better.

moralesrx7

and yes 70% of unibody cars running 10.00-12.50 do use them because most have a 6 pt cage also keep in mind there are alot more cars in that range then in the 7-9.99 range in which they do have fully cages with sill bars and/or subframe connectors

jimlab

Where did you get that statistic?

Wrong... a 4-pt. roll bar with a single door bar on the driver's side is adequate for 10.00.

Yeah... a lot more cars from the 1960s...

Just shut the **** up.

dgeesaman

iTrader: (7)

That says a lot about the effectiveness of running them unconnected.

For a convertible or old style hot rod, i'm sure there is plenty to be gained this way. There is one FD convertible conversion out there on this board, you should contact him. But that's it.

But not really much to gain on an FD. Go tube frame or racing cage, or leave it as is. That's how I see it in terms of performance options.

Dave