t-von

iTrader: (8)

Now to stop the little war we go going on. LOL! What could someone do with a similar set-up in the Fd? Really I don't see a whole lot of weight being added to the car. Maybe 150lbs. Fitment is obviously the biggest issue. An fd with 600 hp and AWD "I think" would be a terror on the streets.

Alpsta I'm talking average everyday street car here, not track car.

ALPSTA

iTrader: (3)

Blah blah blah........ First of all, don't put words in my mouth just because I don't go quoting every single word you spat. I never said good things don't come out enthusiast's garages. You're positive about the concept and yet you'd never consider doing such a mod to your car. Again you're contradicting yourself and trying to play around with the words to get yourself out of it.

I'll try one last time:

- AWD adds weight, adds strain, robs power, adds more parts, difficult to get it right, adds massive cost.
- Not all awds are great. The ones we desire are now high tech and made with best (or one of) awd in the world philosophy with the help of best engineers, race drivers and product development teams. EVO, GTR and 911 Turbo to name a few.
- Again awd cars of today has lots of electronics and sensors helping them stay in track.
- They all have long history and years and years of development, call me negative but you can't do that in your garage unless you have a RX7 shell made to an EVO.
- FD RX7 is rwd, lightweight, and has a suspension system way ahead of it's time. It doesn't rely on electronics and sensors to stay on track.
- If you still think it's missing something, someone like Howard Coleman can help you get it right, awd is not the answer you're looking for.
- Yes it probably can be done.
- Yes it will be different.
- I'm not trying to convince you or anybody that it's not a wise idea. The facts speak for themselves: It has been 17 years since it came out. Some people have spent way more then what an awd setup would cost, and for some companies it's promotion so money would be no issue considering the amount of publicity to be received, we've seen all kinds of things from lambo doors to quad rotors to quad rotors+quad turbos to 20b turbo to 20b NA to LS1 to 2JZ to SR20DET, we've seen drift, drag, track versions of it, automatic, manual, sequential of it, but we're yet to see an awd version. Why do you think that is? Everyone is blind including companies like Veilside, RE Amemiya but you're the only one who can see the light?

I told you this before, this is not bandwagon, it's common sense. Get some

ALPSTA

iTrader: (3)

I saw this after I posted my last reply. T-von I'm not saying an awd system can't be done I'm saying an awd system with today's standards is very hard and costly to do. Terror on the streets definition changes from one person to another. To me any car that has 600hp is a very serious car but it won't make a FD any more special than a 600hp EVO or a Corvette or a STI. What you'll end up is something looking like a FD but not driving or feeling like one. Yes it'll pull like a freight train, if you can get the clutch and the gearbox to last but.................

You know what I think it's going to happen when you fit that awd system which looking at the air filter seems to be from ancient times in your RX7? An Evo with similar hp will come along and rip you a new rearend. It's their turf, it's their home ground, you won't beat them in their own game with their awd systems so what you'll end up with is a car that's not good enough to out handle a GTR or an EVO and something that's not lightweight and agile anymore cause you didn't work on it's strengths (Feed and Amemiya did).

Here is an EVO drivetrain for comparison:


If you're so interested you can check what Mazda have done in the past e.g. 323/Familia GTR (yes Mazda had it's own GTR) or Mazda 6 MPS. Maybe some parts from those cars will help.

t-von

iTrader: (8)

I don't have to have interest in doing this with my own car to have a detail discussion and show interest in HELPING someone else accomplish it. I have not contradicted myself. For me to have done that I would have had to claimed I wanted to do this on my own car. I have NEVER said such and only claimed interest in doing this with a 4 rotor supercar. For as long As I've been on this forum, my main goals have been to gain knowledge and help others with the knowledge I've gained.



I'm a very determined open minded thinker. If I decide I want to accomplish something (no matter the dificulty)I do whatever it takes to make it happen. So yea, light bulb is always going off inside my head.

t-von

iTrader: (8)

Bingo! This is exactly what I'm talking about in terms of traction. The system doesn't have to be that advanced if the front tires are helping to mainly accelerate the vehicle. On public roads 500+rwhp Rx7's are a handfull. On public roads there's no corning at full "G's" or track related stuff like that. Heck probably 99% of FD owners have never tracked their cars. Sure there will be some hp lose but, that's the advantage of turning up the boost. With the advancements in aftermarket apex seals, knowledge gained with water injection, and better tuning habits, rotary's are making more power than ever. I see the AWD as a way to harness all this extra power. I can only imagine the feeling of acceleration you would get from an Fd making 600 rwhp and AWD. To it's the safest way to put this kind of power down with less chance of loosing control.



I doubt that. The above pic with air filter is of a NA PP.

FDWarrior

iTrader: (6)

^ You should also remember that awd exhibits a drive train loss of 25% or so. A rotary power car that all ready needs a bigger turbo to make the same power as it's piston counter part will need even more power to make the same numbers as a rwd rx7. A 700hp rotary at the e-shaft with a 15% loss is now roughly a 600whp car. A 700hp engine at the crank fitted with awd loosing 25% is now a 525whp car. I think the lack of being able to make adequate power to feed the awd system will be the biggest disadvantage. To make 600whp with the awd you would need to make 800hp at the e-shaft instead of 700hp. Now with those hp numbers we are talking serious money and an engine that is no longer able to be street driven.

t-von

iTrader: (8)

Your right! I've been dealing with 20b's and their power/torque potential for so long that I forgot that a 13b would need some serious porting (half or full bridge) to make enough power to keep the rwhp at a high enough level to make a difference (and where talking ErnieT hp levels here). Also it being a half or full bridge makes around town driving very sluggish due to the lack of low rpm torque and even worse with AWD. So yea I see your point. 20b is nearly out of the questing because of fitment but still possible. Anyhow I'm still gonna build that AWD mid-engine 4 rotor supercar to kick some major ***.

FDWarrior

iTrader: (6)

Now an awd mid engine 4 rotor tube chassis car would be cool.

ssonsk

An awd fd could be really helpful for racing. But it would have to be built by a well astablished team with money to blow.
And you can make one light and have a good weight distribution but the parts would cost a ton and you would have to make a whole new drivetrain and mount the trans in the rear and you would most likely use a 20b packing some heat.

It would be awesome if someone did it, but it really wouldn't be worth it unless mazda did it as a prototype or something.

RotaryEvolution

iTrader: (30)

it would be costly to do an AWD conversion and add quite a bit of weight(the example FC has a fairly lightweight drivetrain since it is only used for rally crossing so it won't break as readily and also only had maybe 200 horsepower to the wheels versus the guys who are asking about AWD in an FD making 500+whp and using it on the street, there is a HUGE difference). the motor has to be pushed back about a foot minimum to allow the differential to clear the front wheels and engine so no firewall for joo!

so all that work to cure a little understeer possibly? better tires and suspension= far cheaper alternative and also= a faster car than the AWD. unless you plan on driving on slick conditions, that is where AWD really shines.

ssonsk

with having a straight drive shaft and the trans at the rear couldn't you move the engine further back?


and it would be real good in a time attack or a short race, but for something like an endurance race it would be useless.

gawdodirt

Interesting thread! I fabricate and a challenge is all too enticing.
I work with VW/Audi and almost every chassis they have , has an alternate AWD platform. The differences and each version with the same hp, is enough to make it viable on all surfaces. I remember Hurley Haywood and the Audi Trans Am Quattro that kicked the V-'s asses for over two years and they kept penalizing them with narrower tires and more weight. Never on a wet track and always heads up against the competition. The Quattro only had a center viscous diff to split the torque. I think you could take an Astro Van viscous T-case and make this work well. Team MacPherson had this diff in the T-case of their 800hp AWD Trophy Truck with only minor failures.

GD

Taylorjones

im sorry I have read all the post and I would have to disagree that the awd system will help so much with traction as good tires and suspension... its all about corner exit and driver experience... so what if you can slam the gas around the corner... you can get around the corner just as fast with a rwd

cptpain

iTrader: (1)

Is the horse dead yet?

t-von

iTrader: (8)

I thought it was!

JfEdS3UsS

I came to this thread cause I thought of an AWD FD as the ultimate road track machine.
Why? Well, after having a lot of fun reading all the discussion all I can think of is that time attack is DOMINATED by awd cars, PERIOD.
Im not sure when was it that Cyber EVO won the WTAC event, and 2nd, and 3rd were R-Magic's and Pan Speed's FDs. Note tha Pan Speed FD chassis was built by a Super GT chassis builder and developer, not a kid in his garage. If you look at it you will find the aero kit has similarities to those developed in GT500 machines.
If you watch some youtube you can easily tell the FD's problem is not being able to put the power down on curves, which is the only advantage of the EVO.
Now, if awd is no good for an FD, how come such a well balanced and LOW car as the FD gets his butt kicked by a 4cyl. SEDAN ?? Hm. I think the answer is awd.
Now, if you are not running over 600hp it just wont work. But if you do put down around 700whp, and you manage to fine tune the power distribution (which is the real pain here) then you'll end up with the ultimate. Not only u'll own a lot of rwd cars at the strip but when u hit the road course, man. People will wonder how in the hell did you managed to make the rwd fd came out of the curves so well and fast!
What I would love to build is a AWD rear engine FD. I know your thinking understeer, screw that, proper suspension tune and aerodynamics will cover that.
Weight? Who cares if you ad weight? you are not building a straight line race car (which is straight up gay) You can ad weight, but your FD will be clocking quicker laps anyways. AND on the other hand, you can still make up that weight by stripping the car and using carbon body, structure and suspension parts. Well, he said money was not a problem... are you sure tho?
One of the reasons why Id like an FD is simply because its beautiful, I've always loved it. But Im not the kind of guy who looks at a car only for how cute it looks. I think the FD is provably one of the lowest cars (they dont do cars like that anymore, only the vette and then $100k+ supercars) In road racing the center of gravity plays a big role on the overall performance of a race car. Thats why its a real shame to get beaten by toll sedan like the EVO, unacceptable.
If you think this is a no no because the Evo was born awd and the FD wasnt. I'll tell you something. In F1 they all reveal their secrets at the end of the season, and they dont care if their car didnt born like the champion's car, they will copy what the champion's car have that gave it the advantage over yours. You may wanna check on Full Race's AWD 240sx.. but remember for **** u gotta be over 18
To me AWD FD is the perfect road track machine Mazda never thought of. Now RX-8 is not an RX-7, it only has a similar engine, but its soooo not an RX-7!

adamrs80

iTrader: (7)

The horse has come back to life

Narfle

iTrader: (16)

This.Is.Dumb

GoodfellaFD3S

iTrader: (213)

Part of me wants to lock this thread, and the other half wants to just sit back and watch the carnage

JfEdS3UsS

There is ppl swapping V8s, in line 6, and 4 banger engines.. that is dumb. Have you ever drove at road track? auto cross does not count btw. If you have, and you still believe this is dumb, you suck driving. Just stay off the track. But if you have, ever, driven at a road track and managed to find the FD's limits.. and only if so, please explain to me how come this is dumb?

Narfle

iTrader: (16)

Part of me wishes you had

Dear anonymous ricer teenager,

You have come here, asking dumb questions and reviving zombie threads.
You have no knowledge about Rx7's and even less knowledge about grammar.

This is dumb because:
* The FD is an already competent sports car
* If you want a 4wd car, you should go buy one
* No one here is going to convert their FD to 4wd, and this thread won't change that
* You don't have the bankroll, connections, or knowledge to convert your hypothetical JDM RHD FD to 4wd, even if you tried
* This is a 10yr old thread


I'd go on, but you're not original and this is not interesting. One of you fools drops by about once a week to tell us about the RHD 20b 6sp 4wd rx7 they're going to build.

You're smoking dreams out of a crack pipe. No, wait. You're smoking crack out of a dreams pipe.

Kiss my post count,
Barban

JfEdS3UsS

Im not american, english is not my first language, Im still learning.
I never said I was building nothing. Im not expecting you to build nothing, I have the impression that ur the typical guy who steps on the gas, shifts gears and thinks "Im the man"!
The RX-7 is a competent car. However; awd cars beat them everytime.
How do you know about my connections? I've worked for NGT, Juncos, Tony Kart, and TRG. Starting when I was 16. Ive driven ngt's gt3 cup cars, I've driven tons of go Karts, Ive driven Argentinian TC2000 cars, Argentine TRV6 as well, Ive driven formula Ford, Formula Mazda, etc.
About your post count, what difference does that make? Does that makes you a better man, a better driver, a better mechanic? while you were behind a monitor writting 2k+ posts I was driving real race cars.
And yea, I do have Engineers who can build something like this. As a matter of fact, I know people who build and develop prototype class cars from scratch.
But guys like you will never go past the easy bolt ons mods. And like your fd there is a bunch, yours is one among hundreads. At least someone was thinking outside the box trying to take an fd to the next level.

trainwreck517

iTrader: (1)

Here's my 2 cents for what its worth..

I own a FC rally car which was previously setup with an AWD system (audi).

Setup consists of :
*Engine pushed all the way the front (had to modify the hood because the alternator was sticking out (see picture).
*Custom adapter from rear iron to transmission with modified transmission spline.
*Modified half shafts and audi hubs.
*Custom two piece drive shaft.
*Since the engine was so far forwards, a top mount style radiator was used (see the hoods white piece, that was the cut out for the radiator).

The setup worked, but the car was diffidently sluggish do to the add weight. As well as unbalanced do to the added weight of the engine in front of the cars front wheels. But AWD was the class the previous owner wanted to race in, so that's what he did to get it done. I currently own all the AWD parts for the conversion, but am currently keeping it rwd.

Narfle

iTrader: (16)

Converting a car not originally designed to carry an AWD drive-train to 4wd is very difficult due to the fact that it was never considered or accounted for in the chassis and suspension design.

If it was easy to convert the layout of a car, don't you think there'd be a lot more rwd civics?
The conversions that do come out are generally full of compromise, and not good compromise(see above).

Some kind of hypothetical 4wd rx7, fundamentally changed only by the addition of 4wd, sounds really cool. Who wouldn't like more traction?
There's just one problem: it's a fairy tale.

Any 4wd fd rx7 would likely be nose heavy and top heavy, or have the engine in the passenger compartment.
There's a reason no one has done it after 19yrs: it's not a worthwhile or necessarily good idea.

Narfle

iTrader: (16)

Right, that's why you came into this thread and posted some nonsense about unicorns. And, started another ridiculously unwarranted thread about importing a JDM FD. Because, you have years of racing experience.
Post up some photos of all your amazing adventures.