370whp stock twins ported motor!
09-22-08, 07:39 AM
#26
Eats, Sleeps, Dreams Rotary
its on everyones opinion on what to believe. I dont
and for that let me pass on my experience with the stock twins
greddy 3row smic, downpipe, re-amemiya ecu, intake= 280whp at 0.9bar
my friend's one 317 whp with greddy FMIC, full exhaust power fc and intake at 0.8 bar
Both engines on stock ports and 2002 turbos ..
isnt it true that the US spec rx7s were about 250hp ? How can you jump from 250(roughly 210whp correct?) to another 110whp by just adding 2 things and keeping the same boost levels?
Costas
and for that let me pass on my experience with the stock twins
greddy 3row smic, downpipe, re-amemiya ecu, intake= 280whp at 0.9bar
my friend's one 317 whp with greddy FMIC, full exhaust power fc and intake at 0.8 bar
Both engines on stock ports and 2002 turbos ..
isnt it true that the US spec rx7s were about 250hp ? How can you jump from 250(roughly 210whp correct?) to another 110whp by just adding 2 things and keeping the same boost levels?
Costas
09-22-08, 07:43 AM
#27
Eats, Sleeps, Dreams Rotary
thats more power than i make at that boost level.....but at 15 psi i make 360 stock ports.
09-22-08, 07:46 AM
#28
Eats, Sleeps, Dreams Rotary
lol. u are one bitter dude. listen wether its your reading or ignorance that is the cause it really doesnt matter. fact is making this kind of hp is nothing to be shocked at. back in the day when Fd's were in better shape this was the norm. in fact you have about 3-4 guys in this very thread that have done the same.
stupid me..i didnt know that 4psi is an increase. Thank you for clarifing my misunderstanding ... Can you give a better explanation for the normal people to understand and stop being so scientific?
09-22-08, 08:21 AM
#29
its on everyones opinion on what to believe. I dont
and for that let me pass on my experience with the stock twins
greddy 3row smic, downpipe, re-amemiya ecu, intake= 280whp at 0.9bar
my friend's one 317 whp with greddy FMIC, full exhaust power fc and intake at 0.8 bar
Both engines on stock ports and 2002 turbos ..
isnt it true that the US spec rx7s were about 250hp ? How can you jump from 250(roughly 210whp correct?) to another 110whp by just adding 2 things and keeping the same boost levels?
Costas
and for that let me pass on my experience with the stock twins
greddy 3row smic, downpipe, re-amemiya ecu, intake= 280whp at 0.9bar
my friend's one 317 whp with greddy FMIC, full exhaust power fc and intake at 0.8 bar
Both engines on stock ports and 2002 turbos ..
isnt it true that the US spec rx7s were about 250hp ? How can you jump from 250(roughly 210whp correct?) to another 110whp by just adding 2 things and keeping the same boost levels?
Costas
09-22-08, 09:43 AM
#31
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i personally dont see how 360-370 at the wheels is unheard of at 14-15 psi on a ported motor?? people claim 350 unported at 14-15psi so why not an extra 15-20hp with larger ports?
09-22-08, 10:11 AM
#32
Rotor or no motor
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lol. u are one bitter dude. listen wether its your reading or ignorance that is the cause it really doesnt matter. fact is making this kind of hp is nothing to be shocked at. back in the day when Fd's were in better shape this was the norm. in fact you have about 3-4 guys in this very thread that have done the same.
Our fds are in better shape due to age and still do not make that kind of horsepower ..
As i have said my experience tells me otherwise.
If you guys hit those numbers guys congratulations i honestly would love to see them in person ..not to believe it but just to see it happening
......
09-22-08, 07:16 PM
#38
lol. u are one bitter dude. listen wether its your reading or ignorance that is the cause it really doesnt matter. fact is making this kind of hp is nothing to be shocked at. back in the day when Fd's were in better shape this was the norm. in fact you have about 3-4 guys in this very thread that have done the same.
From what i recall back in the day the majority of guys dynoed at around 340 @ 14 psi. But quite a few did it at 12 psi (add 2 lbs @ 15 WHP/lb= 370). I may not call it the norm but it's certainly not surprising.
09-23-08, 03:14 PM
#41
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gordon we spoke once on the phone about this same things if you remember it.. and i agree with you. we just decided on back a month or so ago why push it soo hard for just a fun street car.. but its possiable if you wanna risk your motor and twins life.
09-23-08, 05:42 PM
#42
I don't think there's any luck in it. This is not vodoo.
Some motors are definitely stronger than others. New rotor housings, meticulous assembly, and proper break-in play a big part. Efficient cooling systems play into the power scheme. Blue printing of other parts counts too such as porting and cleaning the casting imperfections cold and hot side of the turbos, y-pipe, upper and lower manifold. The health of the stock twins varies signifantly from car to car.
Many people baulk at the little things some people do saying that you're wasting your time to make one horsepower difference - well many of those little small things add up to several ponies in the end result.
Jack
Some motors are definitely stronger than others. New rotor housings, meticulous assembly, and proper break-in play a big part. Efficient cooling systems play into the power scheme. Blue printing of other parts counts too such as porting and cleaning the casting imperfections cold and hot side of the turbos, y-pipe, upper and lower manifold. The health of the stock twins varies signifantly from car to car.
Many people baulk at the little things some people do saying that you're wasting your time to make one horsepower difference - well many of those little small things add up to several ponies in the end result.
Jack
09-23-08, 06:09 PM
#43
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I read the comments and searched the archives a bit. There are two or three people who say they made 368 at 14 psi, though I didn't see any dyno graphs, but suspect there probably are graphs somewhere. There are also of course many more people with more like 325-340 at 14 psi. Those with the higher numbers all seemed to have fairly extreme stock twin based motors with a lot more than every bolt on you can think of. Further, we all know that roughly 400 whp is the max it seems we can get with what we have and know today.
I would make a couple of points here. First, anyone thinking that they can get 370 whp at 14 psi somewhat "readily" and from a set group of bolt on mods plus maybe a good street port and "good" tuning are not thinking right. This type of result is the work of some very very good people and probably some real luck. Let me describe both.
First, let's assume the motor has all the bolt on stuff we can think of from great IC to great radiator, bigger primary and secondary injectors, fuel rail, FPR, ignition amp, coils, downpipe, midpipe, 3mm seals, aftermarket ECU, etc.
Second, let's get to the black arts areas that have little to do with bolt on anything. The builder has to be able to do a great port and there is a difference. The best builders can do a port that looks similar in size and shape to someone else's, but isn't. They know what exhaust size (ID) gives highest velocity. They know what seals work best for them and for the application and what springs. They also know how to tune the ECU better than other builders. They know what duration the specific injectors they used like and can take. They do great fuel maps, and more importantly, they know how to set timing and timings splits. Ray at PFS is this good. I think Barninger at KDR is as well. So are a few others that everyone has heard of, though some well-known shops can't. There are not many of them that are proven to be this good.
Third, there's luck. Everyone who's been around these motors for a long time knows that some motors just make more power than others. What I mean is that the actual combination of rotors and housings and eshaft BEFORE any bolt ons, say, comparing one reman to another, say, will for some reason have more compression, and for that and other reasons, make more power. Part of it may be in breaking the motor in and part of it seems to be something more heuristic. There is evidence that hard break ins yield more power than soft break ins. Not saying that's gospel, but there is evidence.
So, does Heidihi know a guy with a 370 whp motor at 14 osi? Maybe. I'd like to see the graph. Does it make sense to replicate that motor? I don't know. It would be expensive and somewhat extreme and unless everything came together right, they would likely end up with the same 330-340 at 14 psi, like most people at the same psi with the same or quite similar specs. Nothing wrong with that, but not 370. And they would spend as much or more than a simpler single turbo upgrade that was a sure thing and likely to be more reliable in many instances if not always. Assuming the same builder were to build both variations, I suspect the single turbo route would be the better motor overall and would cost very close to the same money. So, maybe 370 @ 14 is real, but that doesn't mean that you should try it or think its readily do-able. I think this kind of thinking leads to disappointment.
Gordon
.
I would make a couple of points here. First, anyone thinking that they can get 370 whp at 14 psi somewhat "readily" and from a set group of bolt on mods plus maybe a good street port and "good" tuning are not thinking right. This type of result is the work of some very very good people and probably some real luck. Let me describe both.
First, let's assume the motor has all the bolt on stuff we can think of from great IC to great radiator, bigger primary and secondary injectors, fuel rail, FPR, ignition amp, coils, downpipe, midpipe, 3mm seals, aftermarket ECU, etc.
Second, let's get to the black arts areas that have little to do with bolt on anything. The builder has to be able to do a great port and there is a difference. The best builders can do a port that looks similar in size and shape to someone else's, but isn't. They know what exhaust size (ID) gives highest velocity. They know what seals work best for them and for the application and what springs. They also know how to tune the ECU better than other builders. They know what duration the specific injectors they used like and can take. They do great fuel maps, and more importantly, they know how to set timing and timings splits. Ray at PFS is this good. I think Barninger at KDR is as well. So are a few others that everyone has heard of, though some well-known shops can't. There are not many of them that are proven to be this good.
Third, there's luck. Everyone who's been around these motors for a long time knows that some motors just make more power than others. What I mean is that the actual combination of rotors and housings and eshaft BEFORE any bolt ons, say, comparing one reman to another, say, will for some reason have more compression, and for that and other reasons, make more power. Part of it may be in breaking the motor in and part of it seems to be something more heuristic. There is evidence that hard break ins yield more power than soft break ins. Not saying that's gospel, but there is evidence.
So, does Heidihi know a guy with a 370 whp motor at 14 osi? Maybe. I'd like to see the graph. Does it make sense to replicate that motor? I don't know. It would be expensive and somewhat extreme and unless everything came together right, they would likely end up with the same 330-340 at 14 psi, like most people at the same psi with the same or quite similar specs. Nothing wrong with that, but not 370. And they would spend as much or more than a simpler single turbo upgrade that was a sure thing and likely to be more reliable in many instances if not always. Assuming the same builder were to build both variations, I suspect the single turbo route would be the better motor overall and would cost very close to the same money. So, maybe 370 @ 14 is real, but that doesn't mean that you should try it or think its readily do-able. I think this kind of thinking leads to disappointment.
Gordon
.
Last edited by G's 3rd Gen; 09-23-08 at 06:18 PM.
09-23-08, 10:44 PM
#44
need more data
Hey all, nice to see the big numbers on stock turbos. One comment I have though is that you have to consider how engine life is comprimised with the additional power, you'd be a fool to think that you can get more miles out of a 350ish+ whp motor versus a 300ish whp motor, all things remaining equal.
Although, that point is somewhat moot since every motor/turbo combo is different. It's plausible that the 350ish whp motor is so much more effecient (does a better job of converting chemical energy of the air/fuel mixture into mechanical energy to rotate the e-shaft w/o introducing as much heat as a less effecient motor). There's too many variables, but with enough data it would be easier to really nail down what a "normal" motor should do with modest boost and relatively safe tuning.
I'm curious to see more data, if you guys have dyno run files from a dynojet run, I can plot them in the WinPep software, you can download this from the dynojet website. If anyone wants to see mine from my last dyno trip, I'm more than willing to share. We ought to put together a database with the following info (some of this has already been done):
1. motor setup + mods (ports, turbos, seq/nonseq, intake, exhaust, engine management, etc)
2. run conditions (altitude, ambient temperature, humidity... although the dyno operator should be able to "correct" for these things.. but that's another issue altogether)
3. dyno type (dynojet, mustang, dynodynamics, dynapack.... either load bearing or inertial or wheel/hub)
4. A/F ratio vs. boost & time (or RPM or speed) and location where it's measured (downpipe, precat, tailpipe, etc.)
5. leading timing and split timing vs. RPM & boost .. would have to get this from the tuner
6. Boost (from a reliable source) vs. time (or RPM or speed)
7. gear the car is run (3rd or 4th most likely)
8. any other notes on the setup (gas used, plugs used, knocking behavior, oil used, injectors/duty, fuel pressure, water temps, intake air temps, wheel/tire sizes, whether or not a fan was on the car, sample rate of the dyno run file and/or the tuner's logger, etc.)
What I'm saying is that there's a ton of stuff that goes into these things and the more experienced people have a better feel for it since they have been around the block. It's been already said, but the dyno should be thought of as a tuning tool. If you really want to know how fast your car is take it to the track! I found a reasonably close match for my car's ET and trap based on it's weight and wheel hp, which was confirmed by a few track runs. What I learned is that I need to learn how to be a better driver
Although, that point is somewhat moot since every motor/turbo combo is different. It's plausible that the 350ish whp motor is so much more effecient (does a better job of converting chemical energy of the air/fuel mixture into mechanical energy to rotate the e-shaft w/o introducing as much heat as a less effecient motor). There's too many variables, but with enough data it would be easier to really nail down what a "normal" motor should do with modest boost and relatively safe tuning.
I'm curious to see more data, if you guys have dyno run files from a dynojet run, I can plot them in the WinPep software, you can download this from the dynojet website. If anyone wants to see mine from my last dyno trip, I'm more than willing to share. We ought to put together a database with the following info (some of this has already been done):
1. motor setup + mods (ports, turbos, seq/nonseq, intake, exhaust, engine management, etc)
2. run conditions (altitude, ambient temperature, humidity... although the dyno operator should be able to "correct" for these things.. but that's another issue altogether)
3. dyno type (dynojet, mustang, dynodynamics, dynapack.... either load bearing or inertial or wheel/hub)
4. A/F ratio vs. boost & time (or RPM or speed) and location where it's measured (downpipe, precat, tailpipe, etc.)
5. leading timing and split timing vs. RPM & boost .. would have to get this from the tuner
6. Boost (from a reliable source) vs. time (or RPM or speed)
7. gear the car is run (3rd or 4th most likely)
8. any other notes on the setup (gas used, plugs used, knocking behavior, oil used, injectors/duty, fuel pressure, water temps, intake air temps, wheel/tire sizes, whether or not a fan was on the car, sample rate of the dyno run file and/or the tuner's logger, etc.)
What I'm saying is that there's a ton of stuff that goes into these things and the more experienced people have a better feel for it since they have been around the block. It's been already said, but the dyno should be thought of as a tuning tool. If you really want to know how fast your car is take it to the track! I found a reasonably close match for my car's ET and trap based on it's weight and wheel hp, which was confirmed by a few track runs. What I learned is that I need to learn how to be a better driver
Last edited by mdpalmer; 09-23-08 at 10:46 PM.
09-23-08, 10:49 PM
#45
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the other big factor no one is talking about is a cat...a cat (even a high flow) puts alot of extra load on the turbos, and increases heat
I need to dyno my car, I think I can hit this number
I need to dyno my car, I think I can hit this number
09-24-08, 07:48 AM
#48
Eats, Sleeps, Dreams Rotary
Hey all, nice to see the big numbers on stock turbos. One comment I have though is that you have to consider how engine life is comprimised with the additional power, you'd be a fool to think that you can get more miles out of a 350ish+ whp motor versus a 300ish whp motor, all things remaining equal.
i only have a hardcopy somewhere. People in this thread were at the dyno day.
but the specs:
boost is 14.5 psi.
359.8.rwhp. stock motor/ stock twins. all the boltons including power fc, 1300cc injectors, hks twin power. prior to hks twin power i made 340 on a completely different dyno and with break up. So thats two dynos with pretty much same numbers.
best and most common 1/4 is: 12.2 @ 119mph. that = driver error as i have also went 12.2 with much less mods and only 300rwhp. you reach a pt of diminishing returns when running stock street tires. the mph went from 110 to 119 though. the 119 is a good mph for my claimed rwhp.
plugs all 9s with stock wires
smic
Current afr is like 10.6-10.8/ pissed its so rich actually.
Last edited by matty; 09-24-08 at 08:00 AM.
09-24-08, 10:17 AM
#50
Wow, so you hit 359 rwhp with 10.6 -10.8 AFR??
i disagree....i have been going 6 yrs strong with that kind of power which is much better than 99% of this forum even those that have 220rwhp.
i only have a hardcopy somewhere. People in this thread were at the dyno day.
but the specs:
boost is 14.5 psi.
359.8.rwhp. stock motor/ stock twins. all the boltons including power fc, 1300cc injectors, hks twin power. prior to hks twin power i made 340 on a completely different dyno and with break up. So thats two dynos with pretty much same numbers.
best and most common 1/4 is: 12.2 @ 119mph. that = driver error as i have also went 12.2 with much less mods and only 300rwhp. you reach a pt of diminishing returns when running stock street tires. the mph went from 110 to 119 though. the 119 is a good mph for my claimed rwhp.
plugs all 9s with stock wires
smic
Current afr is like 10.6-10.8/ pissed its so rich actually.
i only have a hardcopy somewhere. People in this thread were at the dyno day.
but the specs:
boost is 14.5 psi.
359.8.rwhp. stock motor/ stock twins. all the boltons including power fc, 1300cc injectors, hks twin power. prior to hks twin power i made 340 on a completely different dyno and with break up. So thats two dynos with pretty much same numbers.
best and most common 1/4 is: 12.2 @ 119mph. that = driver error as i have also went 12.2 with much less mods and only 300rwhp. you reach a pt of diminishing returns when running stock street tires. the mph went from 110 to 119 though. the 119 is a good mph for my claimed rwhp.
plugs all 9s with stock wires
smic
Current afr is like 10.6-10.8/ pissed its so rich actually.