ETraylor3

jimlab,

I should clarify, the numbers I quoted are NOT for a long block.

Just a sidenote, no one in their right mind would use an LS1/6 head on one of these blocks. LQ9's are preferred.

Jim, sounds like you know the answers to the questions you are throwing out [to test my validity]. This isn't a pissing contest, and I'm not in a position that I need to prove anything to anyone.

My point was, and still is, an assembled 7 liter katech [short block] (yes, C5-R) can be had for under $10K - that's half of what GSRSol quoted. That is the only thing I wish to clarify as the peanut factory insists on throwing rocks on LS1's in general!

The LS1 is a reliable, easily modifiable, robust engine!
It is *NOT* outwardly expensive to build!

Certainly you can pay the premium to have the Lingenfelter, MTI, et al name - but it's NOT a necessity.

As far as who I am, I'm a close-friend of V8 Lover, and he's ridden in one of my vettes.

Please, let's keep this thread on topic and shoot questions to V8 lover about his BRUTE of a 7!

SPOautos

Well, I'd love to meet up with you as I've already made the offer about a page back to meet you at the track in Mont sometime to line them up. My schedule isnt flexable enough to meet you on that short of notice and even if it was I've got to tune my car first, I just installed the wideband last night. As soon as I finish tuning it I'd love to meet somewhere and check out your custom creation. Like i said before, I respect peoples rights to do what they want with thier cars eventhough its not my cup of tea. I think it would be cool to do a little comparison on the street or track but it'll have to wait till I've tuning my car, which hopefully wont be very long (sometime this month if all goes well)

Also - I havent hyjacked your thread, I made a post and have simply been defending my statements since then. I cant help it if I'm having to defend my post.

And yes you are correct I am a firm believer that the frequency of torque is what makes a car fast....because its the truth. Thats not to say my car is faster than yours or yours is faster than mine cause I dont know much power your getting to the ground. I mean after all the hp to weight ratio is what is going to make your car fast, not the tq itself.

BTW - Why is it I can great more tq with one arm than a Honda Civic yet I cant seem to push one at 120mph??? Oh yea cause I cant do it 5000 times a minute....thats right I almost forgot

STEPHEN

SPOautos

Excatly, they set the gears to stay in thier powerband (rwhp band that is) because its the hp that makes the car fast. And of course the relationship of hp to weight just as a bike shows us. I wonder why you dont match the gears to the tq band? Oh yea, cause it doesnt make your car fast since its the frequency of tq that creates acceleration.....which is expressed at HP.

Thanks for the help Felix, btw you need to come by the house. Shoot me a email or call me or something.



STEPHEN

Marshall

Amen Stephen, area under the horspower curve between shift point moves the car.

paw140

I started a new thread in the General Automotive section for this side discussion for those who are interested. Hopefully we can keep this one on topic.

https://www.rx7club.com/forum/showth...hreadid=138705

jimlab

OK, I see the point you were trying to make now.

I believe that the reference to a $20k price tag on a 422 LS1 was derived from MTI's Z07 package price, and I was pointing out that there are a few "extras" included in that price (not to mention the name-brand vendor mark-up) that must be considered.

A well-built "average" stroked LT1 or LS1 could certainly be accomplished for $10-12k from a tuner, or for quite a bit less depending on how much of the assembly or machine work the buyer is capable of doing themselves. My builder Mark Montalvo has the equivalent of over $5,000 in porting and welding alone on the heads he used on his supercharged 1k+ horsepower 421 LT1, but they cost him "nothing" (except time and labor) because he had the facilities and the ability to do all of the work and flow testing himself. In such cases, "cost" is very difficult to compare to what the average buyer might pay for an "over the counter" combination in the same power range, obviously.

Excellent point. Some people have arrived at the conclusion that I had to spend $30k+ to make the power that my engine makes, when nothing could be farther from the truth.

If I had used standard parts instead of one-off very lightweight parts, I could have made almost the same power (but with slightly altered characteristics) from much less expensive parts. For example, a $2,800 crankshaft wasn't a necessity, obviously. You can get a very high quality 3.875" forged 4340 crankshaft for about a quarter of that cost... but it will be about 19-20 lbs. heavier.

My $2,150 rods weren't "necessary" either. 6.0" rods can be had as cheaply as $350, or even $1,200 for a nice set of billet rods. They'll be about 3.5 lbs. heavier (for the set), and they won't be rated for 1,000 horsepower and 10,000 rpm with exotic 320,000 psi fasteners, but they'll certainly get the job done if your only goal is connecting a piston to the crankshaft. If weight wasn't a concern, or package size, it'd be far easier and cheaper to just used forced induction to make the same power, for that matter.

The reason I bring this up is because the cost of my engine is often used as a benchmark for comparison to the cost of a 20B conversion. Certainly they're in the same ballpark, but obviously I could have spent considerably less than I did. The point is that you can easily and cheaply make a lot of horsepower with either an LS1 or LT1, and generally have a much higher margin of safety and reliability than you will with a rotary of equivalent power. Any time you push a small displacement engine to nearly twice (or more) its factory power rating, you're significantly increasing risk and reducing longevity, of course.

One of the problems with the rotary engine is that you can't really significantly increase the strength of the engine, or easily or cheaply increase its displacement. You can add thicker/marginally stronger apex seals and bigger turbo(s) to force more air into it, and compensate with lots of fuel, but you can't really significantly improve the basic strength of the engine so that the strain of producing the power levels it is being asked to produce is somewhat reduced.

By comparison, my engine was built to easily handle 1,000+ horsepower but is only being asked to produce ~650. It's also significantly lighter and revs significantly faster than a standard LT1. That's where all the extra money was spent, when it comes right down to it. Not to make 650 horsepower, but to make it as reliably as possible, and to impact the weight distribution of the car as little as possible.

Well said.

Highly unlikely on this forum, but the negative comments should begin to taper off by page 10 or 12...

SPOautos

paw140, thank for starting the new thread.

V8 Lover, I'm sorry my view cause a lot of side discussion that mucked up your thread. If anyone wants to contribute thier .02 on the HP versus TQ discussion please go to the link that paw140 provided.

Also let if be known, I did not have a problem with someone putting a LS1 in the RX7, the majority of my posts were regaurding hp versus tq, I couldnt care less how someone wants to mod thier car...after all it is thier car. Of course I am going to throw in my .02 and view when it turns into selling this to others on the forum. If you check Jims thread all 1000000 pages of it you'll see quite a few posts by me asking him questions and looking for updates. Not once did I flame him for doing it.....nor did I flame you for doing a conversion.

I just wanted to make that clear. I'd still like to meet up and check it out when I get finished tuning my car.

Thanks,
STEPHEN

savspeed

its a cool concept, but the RX-7's claim to fame is the rotary motor. i think ill go put a 13B in my camaro now.

LT1-7

what does having more HP have anything to do with my friends beating me? Of course a car that weighs 700lbs more than my FD would need more hp/torque to win, that's a given. My point is I ran mid 12's on the track and some of my friends run mid to high 12's. On the street though, they tear me up. Just go say 30mph in your FD and punch it in second gear. If you tell me your car just kicks you back, you're just lying to yourself. Either that or you've never been in a car powered by a powerfull V8. Your peak torque might be in the higher rpm band but you have to get up there before you feel it, not to mention your turbos have to be fully spooled.

You want to compare a Formula1 car to a car that has big block 900hp V8? Ok, here goes.... F1's run in the 1/4 at what, mid 8's and they weigh 1500lbs? Go head and pop a bigblock V8 having 900hp and lots of lowend torque. At only 1500lbs, that bigblock would run easy 7's. How you ask? Gee I don't know, could it be the torque?

BizarroTerl

Torque vs HP comments are best posted in this thread https://www.rx7club.com/forum/showth...hreadid=138705

This thread is for the V8 RX7 that V8 Lover is building.

V8 Lover

Estimated turn key conversion prices will be emailed out tonight to all of those who previously emailed me.

Brian Hinson
www.HinsonSuperCars.com

yzf-r1

iTrader: (1)

is the pricing that scary? why can't you just post it here for all your prospective customers?

free advertising baby

apneablue

The estimated price is on the website

GsrSol

God damn motherf&%^#, quit being a cocky bastard and read my post again!

I could buy a burned down Mclaren for cheap but will it drive, NO, so what good is a freaking short block if it doesn't run?

If you can do it for $8800 then more power to you, just stay out of my neighborhood.

Peanut factory? Do you know mullets went out in the 80's?

TomsRX7

Nice brotha, real NICE!!!

ArchangelX

Wow..$9000 buckaroos plus engine and tranny, huh?

I suppose what you pay for, you make up in supposed reliability?

LUV94RX7

iTrader: (3)

Web site says $8,999 without engine and tranny.

Ken

ArchangelX

Er...that's what I said...$8,999 PLUS the cost of the engine and tranny.

I don't know how much an LS1 Engine and tranny cost....

Street King

Used on average of 30k miles on an LS1 goes for around 3k. T-56 used same mileage goes for around 2k, so thats 5k added to the price. All the prices that I listed were from E-bay searches. You can get better deals if you wait and search really good.

9k+3k+2k= Not so interesting anymore.(plus all other costs of shipping engine/tranny/car and what not).

I thought this was going to be a blow out price, maybe I was wrong...

ArchangelX

Verbal

I know, you can put some camaro fenders and a wing on and voila!!

dclin

iTrader: (4)

From their website:

" The estimated turn key cost is $8,999 without engine and transmission"

Unless they have a different idea what 'turn-key' is, I take it to mean this includes labor - doing all the install work to the point where all you have to do is 'turn the key'. Since how far a person wants to go with modifying an engine (and therefore spend) will vary, I can understand why they left that out of the equation. Somewhat reasonable cost in total.

pomanferrari

iTrader: (1)

$8999 without engine and transmission?

I thought that this was Brian Hinson Supercars, not Peter Farrell Supercars!

Basically, with the hard ware ($2000), they're asking for $7000 to put it all together ....Let's see, at $50.00 an hour, they're saying it's 140 hours to do this?

I think I'll stick to paying $4000-5000 installed for a reman from Malloy Mazda because at $15,000 for a complete turn key, I could replace 3 motors. And the right engine sound to boot!

BREWmaster

Ya, its looks a little pricey..... I mean, the hard ware isnt bad..... but like Poman said.....Labor is a bitch..... I would LOVE to do the swap, but, i think he needs to renegotiate his prices... I mean, he has a BUNCH of people who want to do it, but after they saw the price, did you notice how this thread kinda slowed down a little bit......the price hit them like a ton of bricks.....
KB

yzf-r1

iTrader: (1)

I'm sure there is a ton of "behind the scenes" work that goes into the conversion, you don't just get up on a Sunday morning, plop a V-8 in your FD and it's all good....the wiring harness, the entire driveline, the engine cross member, the cooling system....it's all has to be re-done

of course Jim can attest to the vast difference between doing it half-*** and doing it right

with that said, I'm putting a ported 13B back in my car....I may live to regret it, ha