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dogbox is a type of transmission mostly used in actual racing.
Also, don't worry about guys your age not knowing how to work on a car... I'm 32 and when I was 21 I didn't know what I was doing. I was on this forum getting help, and now I contribute when I can. I broke a lot of stuff back then (still do). As annoying as TJ Hunt can be, at some point he may become a seasoned owner (if he ever gets rid of that annoying girlfriend) and have a lot more skill. It just comes with time.
It will probably be a smaller percentage of people being comfortable working on their own stuff over time but I doubt all the experts will go away. It's usually a generational thing. Just this weekend I met a guy who is probably in his 60s who is into 1930s Ford flat V8's. I don't care much about those, they are prehistoric to me (I also hate carburetors) and have no interest. But there are still people working on them even though the original generation that modded them (World War II generation and even older than that, the bootlegger/Prohibition crowd) are dead.
Also I'm a semi noob, dogbox is the tranny? So what's a "PBM"? Tried googling it with no result, unless I'm blind.
Searches would be easier if I got the name right- PBS Dogbox. Got PBM stuck in my head LOL.
PBS gearbox Part #: 0000-02-9001-EM is Mazda's 5 speed gated sportsman level race gearbox as used in SCCA GT and Production classes- probably from the '70s when a 5 speed dog engaged straight cut gearbox was a real Mazda works race gearbox.
Pretty much an antique/niche product now when you can get the latest Quafe QBE69G-RX7-1 6 speed sequential dog box FD drop in kit for around the same $10,000.
I'm sure there are quite a few people on here like me that have multiple examples of brand new hard to find parts in the garage. Will never sell them because I plan on keeping the car forever and it's nice to have 2 or 3 extra copies of difficult to find interior parts, exterior parts, or anything else I may need in 10-15 years so I'm not too worried.
I'm sure there are quite a few people on here like me that have multiple examples of brand new hard to find parts in the garage. Will never sell them because I plan on keeping the car forever and it's nice to have 2 or 3 extra copies of difficult to find interior parts, exterior parts, or anything else I may need in 10-15 years so I'm not too worried.
Good to know i not the only person that does this.
Next spare items i want to have is new engine harness, engine and low mileage trans.
The fact that there are many more of these cars and years manufactured in Japan and Australia should help the cause out for most items, though a few will be tough to get. 3D printing and low-volume manufacturing techniques will help as well.
Lets not forget 3D structural metal printing is currently being used in very limited applications (Konigsegg turbo exhaust housing, Divergent Blade chassis bulkheads).
In 20 years let us hope it is an accessible affordable alternative to current production methods. Scan OEM Mazda part, touch up wear areas in the model and print.
Yes, the parts will get harder to find and more expensive. But, so far Mazda has done a good job of maintaining parts inventories for FBs and FCs compared to many manufacturers like BMW. I have a 2016 BMW M235i and the head rests in Oyster leather are no longer available!!!!! On the other hand, I use to have a 73 BMW 2002tii as the parts became more rare a cottage industry sprung up providing new and refurbishing old parts, (at a pretty steep price!). There are still rare parts that are very hard to find and very expensive when you can find them. Hopefully, Mazda will setup a program similar to BMW's Classic Parts Shop . The way this seems to work is BMW takes orders in and as the order gets large enough they will make a manufacturing run of the part... or not, it seem hit or miss. Mazda appears to already be doing this to some degree. For example, until lately, Mazdacomp bushings used to be always in stock and available here and in Japan. Unfortunately, I've had an order in at Mazda Competition for 6 months. Getting the front bushings has become like the Wine of the Month Club. Each month or so I get a package from Mazda with a new single Mazda Competition bushing, at this rate I should have a complete set by May! At least the parts don't have the dreaded NLA after the parts description.
I'm not too concerned about the future of parts, where there's a will there's a way. What I am concerned about is the future of the forum. Hopefully I'm wrong, but I don't see this forum being available 20 years from now and that is a LOT of information that would be lost...
I've thought about this a good amount. Many parts we are having to cannibalize from wrecked/parted out cars, and those cars will dry up as time goes along.
There were 13,500 FD's brought into the US. I think there were about 45,000 or so made in Japan, and a large handful made for other markets (Europe, Australia, etc.).
I think there could be a business case made for a company that specializes in parts for classic Japanese cars, kind of like Original Parts Group for US cars. Hell, at this point, if you wanted a classic Mustang or Camaro, you could buy all the replica body panels, weld them together, then buy all the interior, wiring, engine, trim, you name it and functionally make a brand-new classic car.
I don't see that level of support for classic Japanese cars (I'm including the Supra, NSX, MR-2, and Miata among others) but I think a business could supply certain hard-to-find parts like interior plastics and common failure parts. Even with a substantial markup you'd have a pretty solid business. I'd pay $300 for a new meter hood no sweat.
By the same token I feel bad for the cars that aren't on the "supercar" level like the FD. 240sx's in the US are disappearing so fast due to them being turned into drift missles and being hacked up. That market is going to have only a VERY small percentage of people willing to pay a fair price for parts, most are kids who are cheap and not willing to restore a car or pay more than $20 for anything. I've seen this happening with FC's as well.
Dale
my prediction is that in short order, the FC will become really rare. for whatever reasons, the FC people have always relied on used parts, so while Mazda has a ton of stuff for the FB and FD, the FC isn't as well off. as a corollary to that, good used FC parts are getting kind of rare.
the SA/FB and FD always had enough demand with Mazda that they are in fine shape, Mazda supports them better than the new cars.
I wouldn’t worry about it too much. I personally think we’re in the most difficult era for sourcing parts right now. Think about it, we’re atill unable to import JDM vehicles en mass and at this age our cars need a lot. So there’s a shortage of parts, for now. Remember though, in the next few years you will see tons of JDM cars imported with many of the gadgets and gizmos you’re looking for, such as CPU #2. And, the car was produced until 2002 in Japan.
So, we’re going to have lots of replacement or even upgrade parts available to us real soon. This is one of the reasons I’m waiting to buy ‘99 tails. I am convinced they’re going to go for $150 in about 3-5 years time. Same for the arm rest pad. $120-$150? They’ll be half that in 2-3 years.
But what about 20 or 30 years from now?? Haven’t you seen what the aftermarket has produced for cars like the Muatang’s and Camaro’s our dad’s drove? They’ve got EVERYTHING! They purchase original designs from the manufacturer and rebuild them. Hell, they even buy original manufacturing equipment to do it, so it’s 100% authentic. And pretty cheap all things considered.
When the dust settles, I think there will be 2 or 3 rotary suppliers in the country, maybe the likes of Racing Beat, SakebombGarage and Addicted - let’s say...and they will own the market and supply us all with everything from replacement engine parts, to bumpers and fenders.
Another thing to keep in mind is, as collectable cars age their markets typically split up into 4 distinct tiers. I’ll use the 1974 2002tii as an example (since I'm familiar with it). The top tier is the concurs cars. These are the most difficult to maintain as they can only have original stock OEM parts, no substitutions or third party parts allowed! Need a rare part? You’re going to have to wait for it to show up on the market and pay dearly for it. If you have a tier 4 car you can reasonably substitute any part with a similar part as long as the function is the same.
Here are the tier descriptions as described by Hagerty:
Tier 1
The visual image is of the best vehicle, in the right colors, driving onto the lawn at the finest concours. Perfectly clean, the vehicle has been groomed down to the tire treads. Painted and chromed surfaces are mirror-like. Dust and dirt are banned, and materials used are correct and superbly fitted.
Tier 2
These vehicles could win a local or regional show. They can be former #1 vehicles that have been driven or have aged. Seasoned observers will have to look closely for flaws, but will be able to find some not seen by the general public. The paint, chrome, glass and finishes will all appear as excellent. No excessive smoke will be seen on startup, no unusual noises will emanate from the engine. The vehicle will drive as a new vehicle of its era would.
Tier 3
While not as good a condition as tier 2 they will be balanced by other factors such as a fresh paint job or a new, correct interior where applicable. These vehicles drive and run well, but might have some incorrect parts. These vehicles are not used for daily transportation but are ready for a long tour without excuses, and the casual passerby will not find any visual flaws.
Tier 4
These vehicles are daily drivers, with flaws visible to the naked eye. The chrome might have pitting or scratches, the windshield might be chipped. Paintwork is imperfect, and perhaps the body has a minor dent. Split seams or a cracked dash, where applicable, might be present. No major parts are missing, but the wheels could differ from the originals, or other non- stock additions might be present.
Now let's look at the prices of a 1974 2002tii
As you can see in 2015 prices are about where the FD is today.But, notice top two tier prices are begining to pull away from the other tiers. These are the cars everone talks about, but very few people own. Notice the fourth tier prices are generally flat. This is very typical of collectable cars around this age. So as the FD becomes more collectable prices will go up considerably but they will be mostly lead by the top tier cars not your daily driver. Unfortunately, parts prices will follow the top tier car prices.
What about highly modified cars? Well the 2002tii market had it's share of wide fender flairs, engine swaps, giant turbo conversions. These cars, with a few exceptons, are now mostly parts sources and follow the bottom of the bottom tier cars prices.
Last edited by mdp; 11-28-17 at 01:27 PM.
Reason: fixed graphic
mdp - that is probably the most accurate comparison to the current FD I've ever seen... and it's all very true. As these vehicles keep progressing to the collector market the wheat will continue to be separated from the chaff. Then the logic will become "ok, can I buy a Tier #4, sink $30K into it and turn it into a Tier #1?".
As for the broader question - with the exception of the goal of having a Tier #1 (they can only have original stock OEM parts, no substations or third party parts allowed!)... the market will respond. With the acceleration of rapid prototyping (3D scanning, 3D printing, CNC, injection molding, etc, etc) as long as one exists - we can make more. There's actually a local rotary shop that's pivoting to this broader market right now: protopartsllc.com
The idea being, RX-7's aren't the only one going through these mid-life aches and pains (the cars, not the owners... ok, well maybe the owners, but I digress). MANY cars will need little brackets, specific bushings, interior components, wear and tear items, etc, etc - and the markets are just too small for the "big boys" to commit to - so it'll be up to the enthusiasts to band together and make things happen.
Like a few have said before - wiring is wiring - and in the same vein; injection molding is injection molding... but can you justify the cost? THAT'S the question.
Just for completness here is Hagerty's pricing for the FD
Notice again the top two tiers are rapidly increasing while the bottom half of the market is flat. Also, apparently in 2015 collectors began to notice the top tier and bid prices up up up.
Just for completness here is Hagerty's pricing for the FD
Notice again the top two tiers are rapidly increasing while the bottom half of the market is flat. Also, apparently in 2015 collectors began to notice the top tier and bid prices up up up.
LHD interior parts is the only thing you should really be super concerned with drying up soon. There are a lot of guys like Fritz and myself sitting on a lot of stock and performance parts and even more shops sitting on engine parts as those values keep creeping higher.
However, low mileage and very clean FDs are definitely becoming more rare and highly sought after.
Just for completness here is Hagerty's pricing for the FD
Notice again the top two tiers are rapidly increasing while the bottom half of the market is flat. Also, apparently in 2015 collectors began to notice the top tier and bid prices up up up.
Notice how steep the trend is from January to September of 2017. I bought my '95 in March. It's probably a lesser Tier #2. I paid $20,500 for it on Bring a Trailer. We may be entering the steep portion of the appreciation curve. The question is when that curve will flatten out.
I think this really shows the trend well. What is most interesting to me is the 50% increase in price of "good" Rx7's. They went from about $8000 to $12,500 -- a 50% increase -- in less than a year.
Fair FDs for 5k......WHAT? Wrecked FDs have sold for more. These #s are off. In 2015 top shelf FD (less than 20k miles garaged etc...) sold for 27 to 30k. Last year they sold for 28 to 32k. This year they are selling for 30 to 35k. Next year who knows but if the market etc... stays the same I think we'll see a very nice FD sell for 40k no problem.
Good FDs NEVER sold for 8k, EVER.......LOL. They've been 12k or more since I bought my 1st one back in 1999. UNLESS they were beat up automatics.
PS there are always exceptions (someone gets a great deal or pays too much) to the rule but in general the only time a very nice FD sold for 18k was back around 2005 to 2007 (that was about the bottom of the market)
If our friend joined the military to buy an RX7, I suppose he is talking about RHD. If he is posted in Japan, he should snap up several wrecks for cheap, part em out, and stuff a container, or two, to bring home.
Yes, the same is true for the 2002tii, trashed tii's go for more that the $10k Fair price. Hereis how Hagerty arrives at the values.
I guess it's the 70 percent that we don't know about
"Most importantly, Hagerty knows that peer-to-peer sales – those exchanges that are conducted outside of the public eye and away from scrutiny – have historically been elusive. As these sales rarely make headlines but constitute the overwhelming majority of the collector car marketplace (71.5%, to be exact), we have developed a process to aggregate transactional data from our vast network of willing insured clients. We actively solicit and record details regarding tens of thousands of these transactions annually."
I believe what Hagerty is saying is that, because they have a large base of collectors using them and solicit sales information from them, that they ARE reporting on that 71% of sales that are not in the public eye, right?
Yep
They are saying that most of the sales are private and apparently at very low prices
If our friend joined the military to buy an RX7, I suppose he is talking about RHD. If he is posted in Japan, he should snap up several wrecks for cheap, part em out, and stuff a container, or two, to bring home.
Problem solved!
You would need a time machine for the cheap part... that boat sailed 2 years ago. JDM FD's are rapidly catching USDM in price and it is never in our lifetime likely to improve, not to mention parts here have been more expensive than the Ebay importers for a while now, buy up everything they have IMO because it is NEVER going to get replenished. It is not only expensive for parts now but it is also becoming nearly impossible to find parts with our horrible junking laws.
your point about automatics is important. The Hagerty data must include automatic cars, which are weighing down the averages for each tier.
In regards to pricing, I wonder how autos converted to manuals would fit into this situation. I mean... buy a decent auto for 12-15k, spend 2-3k converting and boom.. worth 20k+ That's a better gain than the stock market!
11-27-17, 10:00 AM
Snap em Up
