water injection vs. big ic
12-14-02, 03:08 PM
#27
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Why not jut run 104 unleaded race gas to prevent detonation?
Water in the intake CAN'T be good for combustion?
KevinK2, you are my hero when it comes to making a point in as few typed words as possible...
Water in the intake CAN'T be good for combustion?
KevinK2, you are my hero when it comes to making a point in as few typed words as possible...
12-14-02, 03:09 PM
#28
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Originally posted by rallimike
If the primary benefit is detonation control, would you turn the unit off if you were running 100 octane? Or, could a different setting be used to cool the charge? Or, don't I understand this properly?
If the primary benefit is detonation control, would you turn the unit off if you were running 100 octane? Or, could a different setting be used to cool the charge? Or, don't I understand this properly?
However, on the street when I'm running pump gas, the Aquamist is both limiting heat related issues (cooling the intake charge) as well as raising the effective octane of pump gas.
-- DavidV
12-14-02, 03:15 PM
#29
Originally posted by rallimike Ken
Where did you buy your unit, and did you get good help with the technical issues?If the primary benefit is detonation control, would you turn the unit off if you were running 100 octane? Or, could a different setting be used to cool the charge? Or, don't I understand this properly?
Where did you buy your unit, and did you get good help with the technical issues?If the primary benefit is detonation control, would you turn the unit off if you were running 100 octane? Or, could a different setting be used to cool the charge? Or, don't I understand this properly?
If you tune your car for water and advance the timing and then you turn the water off the car runs like crap and misses. I suppose you could tune without advancing much wo run without water. I just bought a reverse osmosis water purifier for drinking water and my water injection. I don't want to clog the injectors with unpure water. The 3-gallon fuel cell is really great. I go thru a lot of water when I'm pushing it.
Ken
12-14-02, 03:15 PM
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Originally posted by SleepR1
Why not jut run 104 unleaded race gas to prevent detonation?
Water in the intake CAN'T be good for combustion?
Why not jut run 104 unleaded race gas to prevent detonation?
Water in the intake CAN'T be good for combustion?
First, the WRC rally guys aren't running pump gas, yet they all use Aquamist water injection. The reason they use it is as an extra margin of safety and tuning tool for the extreme rigors of driving their cars at insane boost levels.
In any case, how many of us run around on $5 a gallon 114 octane all the time?
As for injecting into the intake, you are injecting into the intercooler piping right before the throttle body. The water mist is so fine that it evaporates immediately. It is this evaporation process that cools the intake charge. I'm seeing temp. drops of 30-40 degrees Celcius after my massive Apexi intercooler.
You may not have been aware of this, but water vapor is a natural product of the combustion process. I know it sounds counter intuitive, but water injection has been around a long time. It's safe and it works.
For more details, please see the thread I posted:
Click Here
I know it’s a lot to read, but it should be fairly interesting to you guys.
-- DavidV
Last edited by DavidV; 12-14-02 at 03:21 PM.
12-14-02, 03:27 PM
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Originally posted by LUV94RX7
I did a group buy on the "Big List" in April 2001. I went with KC Saab in KC, MO.
I did a group buy on the "Big List" in April 2001. I went with KC Saab in KC, MO.
Tuners interested in carrying the Aquamist product line can make inquiries through my agency, Boosted Group.
-- DavidV
12-15-02, 08:53 PM
#33
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Anyone used Methanol Injection?
Does anyone have experience with methanol injection(used instead of water or alcohol)?
I was reading on the Supra forums that some are running methanol with extremely impressive results. They used an AEM EMS to control the injection and used a fuel cell for the methanol.
Just seeing if anyone has tried in on a rotary...
Thanks
Ben
I was reading on the Supra forums that some are running methanol with extremely impressive results. They used an AEM EMS to control the injection and used a fuel cell for the methanol.
Just seeing if anyone has tried in on a rotary...
Thanks
Ben
12-15-02, 10:21 PM
#34
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Corky Bell states in his book Maximum Boost that water injection is a bamd aid and eludes to his reasoning. The resoning that I think he is eluding to is that most people who run water injection are making up for other short comings in thier turbo system. Be it a turbo running out of its effciancy range, an intercooler not properly sized, ineffeciant cooling system, improper engine tuning, and a ton of other reasons.
In the case of the rotory, it is being considered for some of those very reasons. The engine runs hot, too warm - lacking cooling system. Can run higher boost - running a turbo out of its effciancy range and an impropperly sized intercooler.
So I belive that Corky is on the correct path.
Please keep all this in mind when considering implementing water injection. Put alot of time into why you want water injection and what problems it will solve and if this would be the best way to solve such problems.
I see water injection the same a NOS on a turbo car. A cheap add-on to get quick and most likely dirty results.
Just my $0.02 coming from the VW 1.8T crowd.
SF
In the case of the rotory, it is being considered for some of those very reasons. The engine runs hot, too warm - lacking cooling system. Can run higher boost - running a turbo out of its effciancy range and an impropperly sized intercooler.
So I belive that Corky is on the correct path.
Please keep all this in mind when considering implementing water injection. Put alot of time into why you want water injection and what problems it will solve and if this would be the best way to solve such problems.
I see water injection the same a NOS on a turbo car. A cheap add-on to get quick and most likely dirty results.
Just my $0.02 coming from the VW 1.8T crowd.
SF
12-15-02, 11:06 PM
#35
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azndisgrace--you can spray before or after the turbo...but if you spray before the compressor...you must fully atomize the liquid....failure to do so will result in compressor blade damage....water drops are hard when they hit something moving that fast!!!
12-15-02, 11:43 PM
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Originally posted by Speedious-Freakious
Corky Bell states in his book Maximum Boost that water injection is a band aid ...
Corky Bell states in his book Maximum Boost that water injection is a band aid ...
Following Corky’s logic, an intercooler is a band aid for an undersized turbo and a turbo is a band aid for insufficient displacement.
-- DavidV
12-16-02, 04:09 AM
#37
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Originally posted by DavidV
Following Corky’s logic, an intercooler is a band aid for an undersized turbo and a turbo is a band aid for insufficient displacement.
-- DavidV
Following Corky’s logic, an intercooler is a band aid for an undersized turbo and a turbo is a band aid for insufficient displacement.
-- DavidV
First alarm bell went off when I read that you work for AquaMist. Not a big deal but I threw up my defences. I have traveled this road before in the 1.8T community, so I am caucious.
Unfortunatly all I found in your post and in the AquaMists website was that water injection is a system that should be implemented to reduce inlet temps when they are too high from an undersized intercooler, running more boost, or when the stock or existing efi could not compensate.
Basically restating what I had already contributed to this thread.
You yourself do point out a good example though. The fact that you can run out and spend 10k on a turbo system with intercooler and standalone and still not be able to run at the track for a 30min session without overstepping the boudries of the setup. Although, to me, that just sounds like a poorly designed setup that needs more work.
Even the example about your MR2 turbo at the track. Your engine was fine and manifold warm to the touch but you think you damaged the turbo. Again an example of a system that needs work or has some distinct shortcomings.
I must say that I am intreaged simply based upon the level of sophistication of the AquaMist system. I am curious about its implimentation as a failsafe system to prevent engine damage but not as a continuously operating system.
SF
12-16-02, 07:39 AM
#38
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Wow, this is more good info than I hoped for 
Hey Ken, what did Dave think about the WI kit and the results? Thats where I go for everything.
After reading this I'm thinking that maybe a less expensive IC (blitz, pfs, etc...) and WI combo may work as well/better than a spendier IC (m2) for ~ cost.
DavidK mentioned a 30C+ drop, if thats a reliable number then this combo sounds good.
Not saying that being stingy on the IC is good or anything but for stock turbos, 12ish pounds...eh?
Hey Ken, what did Dave think about the WI kit and the results? Thats where I go for everything.
After reading this I'm thinking that maybe a less expensive IC (blitz, pfs, etc...) and WI combo may work as well/better than a spendier IC (m2) for ~ cost.
DavidK mentioned a 30C+ drop, if thats a reliable number then this combo sounds good.
Not saying that being stingy on the IC is good or anything but for stock turbos, 12ish pounds...eh?
12-16-02, 07:55 AM
#39
Originally posted by airborne Wow, this is more good info than I hoped for Hey Ken, what did Dave think about the WI kit and the results? Thats where I go for everything.After reading this I'm thinking that maybe a less expensive IC (blitz, pfs, etc...) and WI combo may work as well/better than a spendier IC (m2) for ~ cost.DavidK mentioned a 30C+ drop, if thats a reliable number then this combo sounds good.Not saying that being stingy on the IC is good or anything but for stock turbos, 12ish pounds...eh?
Hey Ken, what did Dave think about the WI kit and the results? Thats where I go for everything.After reading this I'm thinking that maybe a less expensive IC (blitz, pfs, etc...) and WI combo may work as well/better than a spendier IC (m2) for ~ cost.DavidK mentioned a 30C+ drop, if thats a reliable number then this combo sounds good.Not saying that being stingy on the IC is good or anything but for stock turbos, 12ish pounds...eh?
I have the Omega gauge and 4 air temp probes. I'll do some runs to get some temp info for you guys.
They are located in the K&N air filter, after the turbo, after the IC and after the WI.
Did a run at 15psi and the peak temp after turbo was 256F. Intake temp was 96. I think the IC dropped it 120F and water another 40F.
http://flathat.woodstream.net/LUV94RX7/
Ken
12-16-02, 10:12 AM
#40
I did a run today using the Omega air temp probes. They are located in the K&N air filter, just before the IC, just after the IC and about a foot after the water injector. That probe is about one foot before the throttle body. The run was from 40-70+(4-7.5+ rpms). Max boost was 15psi.
Outside temp was 22F.
Max in K&N filter was 71F.
Max after turbo was 231F.
Max after IC was 85F.
Max at probe after water injection was 61F.
I don’t know where the Commander air temp probe is, I’m guessing just before the air goes into the engine, as its max was 88F.
These tests will be more helpful in the summer. Today the IC had 22F air going through it at 70mph. When the IC has 90F going through it there is no way it can drop it from 231F to 85F. I think water will be more valuable in summer weather.
As I said before I installed water to prevent detonation. Our beloved rotaries blow up mainly due to detonation and over heating. The benefits of cooler air intake temps, cooler combustion chamber and cleaner combustion chamber are just bonuses.
Ken
Outside temp was 22F.
Max in K&N filter was 71F.
Max after turbo was 231F.
Max after IC was 85F.
Max at probe after water injection was 61F.
I don’t know where the Commander air temp probe is, I’m guessing just before the air goes into the engine, as its max was 88F.
These tests will be more helpful in the summer. Today the IC had 22F air going through it at 70mph. When the IC has 90F going through it there is no way it can drop it from 231F to 85F. I think water will be more valuable in summer weather.
As I said before I installed water to prevent detonation. Our beloved rotaries blow up mainly due to detonation and over heating. The benefits of cooler air intake temps, cooler combustion chamber and cleaner combustion chamber are just bonuses.
Ken
12-16-02, 12:26 PM
#41
Be prepared to use a lot of water. My system kicks in at 7psi and 3k rpms. The volume of water increases as the rpms and boost increase. I'm glad I have the 3-gallon fuel cell. I just used 2 gallons of water in 80 miles of spirited driving.
I'd like to see DavidV give us some stats on the decreased EGTs with and without water. If it cools the combustion chamber then the EGT should be reduced.
Ken
I'd like to see DavidV give us some stats on the decreased EGTs with and without water. If it cools the combustion chamber then the EGT should be reduced.
Ken
12-16-02, 12:44 PM
#42
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Originally posted by LUV94RX7
I did a run today using the Omega air temp probes. They are located in the K&N air filter, just before the IC, just after the IC and about a foot after the water injector. That probe is about one foot before the throttle body. The run was from 40-70+(4-7.5+ rpms). Max boost was 15psi.
Outside temp was 22F.
Max in K&N filter was 71F.
Max after turbo was 231F.
Max after IC was 85F.
Max at probe after water injection was 61F.
I don’t know where the Commander air temp probe is, I’m guessing just before the air goes into the engine, as its max was 88F.
These tests will be more helpful in the summer. Today the IC had 22F air going through it at 70mph. When the IC has 90F going through it there is no way it can drop it from 231F to 85F. I think water will be more valuable in summer weather.
As I said before I installed water to prevent detonation. Our beloved rotaries blow up mainly due to detonation and over heating. The benefits of cooler air intake temps, cooler combustion chamber and cleaner combustion chamber are just bonuses.
Ken
I did a run today using the Omega air temp probes. They are located in the K&N air filter, just before the IC, just after the IC and about a foot after the water injector. That probe is about one foot before the throttle body. The run was from 40-70+(4-7.5+ rpms). Max boost was 15psi.
Outside temp was 22F.
Max in K&N filter was 71F.
Max after turbo was 231F.
Max after IC was 85F.
Max at probe after water injection was 61F.
I don’t know where the Commander air temp probe is, I’m guessing just before the air goes into the engine, as its max was 88F.
These tests will be more helpful in the summer. Today the IC had 22F air going through it at 70mph. When the IC has 90F going through it there is no way it can drop it from 231F to 85F. I think water will be more valuable in summer weather.
As I said before I installed water to prevent detonation. Our beloved rotaries blow up mainly due to detonation and over heating. The benefits of cooler air intake temps, cooler combustion chamber and cleaner combustion chamber are just bonuses.
Ken
What I'm getting at is that it's nearly impossible to correctly measure the most significant temperature drop caused by WI. The lower temp in your intake air after the injection point is not showing the full effect. EGT would probably be a good indicator of the overall achievment though.
12-16-02, 12:45 PM
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Wow Ken,
You go thru lots of water. With the Aquamist 1s system set to activate at 10 psi w/ .6mm jet, my windshield washer bottle may not empty until several hundred miles. What size jet are u using? I was thinking of putting the biggest I have in, .7mm.
At idle, if I jump the manifold sensor for the WI and have it come on, it does not seem to affect idle much. Maybe .6mm is way too small of a jet. I dunno.
Steve
You go thru lots of water. With the Aquamist 1s system set to activate at 10 psi w/ .6mm jet, my windshield washer bottle may not empty until several hundred miles. What size jet are u using? I was thinking of putting the biggest I have in, .7mm.
At idle, if I jump the manifold sensor for the WI and have it come on, it does not seem to affect idle much. Maybe .6mm is way too small of a jet. I dunno.
Steve
12-16-02, 12:58 PM
#44
Originally posted by Stevil
Wow Ken, You go thru lots of water. With the Aquamist 1s system set to activate at 10 psi w/ .6mm jet, my windshield washer bottle may not empty until several hundred miles. What size jet are u using? I was thinking of putting the biggest I have in, .7mm.
At idle, if I jump the manifold sensor for the WI and have it come on, it does not seem to affect idle much. Maybe .6mm is way too small of a jet. I dunno.
Steve
Wow Ken, You go thru lots of water. With the Aquamist 1s system set to activate at 10 psi w/ .6mm jet, my windshield washer bottle may not empty until several hundred miles. What size jet are u using? I was thinking of putting the biggest I have in, .7mm.
At idle, if I jump the manifold sensor for the WI and have it come on, it does not seem to affect idle much. Maybe .6mm is way too small of a jet. I dunno.
Steve
I'm not too happy about this. Too much water is hurting my power.
Ken
12-17-02, 03:41 PM
#47
My friend tried using a fuel pump to pump water through his water/air intercooler. Worked great for a couple hours, then the pump seized. I dont know if it was becasue a fuel pump is not designed to pump water or if it was just a coincidence but I wouldnt try it again.
12-17-02, 04:02 PM
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Don't buy anything yet!!
Don't buy anything yet!!
There's a new WI product that goes to market very very shortly here in NZ that's been developed using FD's as a test bed ... the website goes live later today.
Will post the address once it's live ...
There's a new WI product that goes to market very very shortly here in NZ that's been developed using FD's as a test bed ... the website goes live later today.
Will post the address once it's live ...
12-17-02, 04:59 PM
#49
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Water Injection
Hi Guy's
I've been running water injection for about 9 months now. Here's my experiences....
Firstly my setup:
1992 FD ex-japan
ARC intercooler (just a little bit bigger than stock)
G^Sport chipped computer set to run 16psi
manual wategate modification making boost switchable from 13psi to 18psi
3" exhaust (down, mid and catback)
stock fuel injectors
PiNZ vapourjet mapped water injection
lots of other stuff
With waterinjection:
manifold temp is on average 30+ degC cooler
boost is able to be raised to 18psi without detonation on stock injectors (plus re-wired fuel pump to raise voltage)
At one stage I had fuel delivery problems because of the fuel pickup filter on the pump being blocked (nasty problem). I had audable detonation without water injection but with the WI turned on the detonation went away, effectively allowing me to run lean. The WI system I have is mapped to rpm and I can set it to come on at any boost level, plus it have a safety circuit that I use to drop boost if there is a fault.
Check out my site for advantages of WI.... http://www.geocities.com/rx-stephen/mod_water.html
Cheers
Stephen
I've been running water injection for about 9 months now. Here's my experiences....
Firstly my setup:
1992 FD ex-japan
ARC intercooler (just a little bit bigger than stock)
G^Sport chipped computer set to run 16psi
manual wategate modification making boost switchable from 13psi to 18psi
3" exhaust (down, mid and catback)
stock fuel injectors
PiNZ vapourjet mapped water injection
lots of other stuff
With waterinjection:
manifold temp is on average 30+ degC cooler
boost is able to be raised to 18psi without detonation on stock injectors (plus re-wired fuel pump to raise voltage)
At one stage I had fuel delivery problems because of the fuel pickup filter on the pump being blocked (nasty problem). I had audable detonation without water injection but with the WI turned on the detonation went away, effectively allowing me to run lean. The WI system I have is mapped to rpm and I can set it to come on at any boost level, plus it have a safety circuit that I use to drop boost if there is a fault.
Check out my site for advantages of WI.... http://www.geocities.com/rx-stephen/mod_water.html
Cheers
Stephen
12-18-02, 09:21 PM
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newb question #2
i can understand why this would be very advantageous for the big power people who like to drag their car, but do you think it would be advantageous for a road car? i mean.. is it really worth it? cause it seems like another problem that could possibly go wrong with your car and if the benefit isnt too great should i even bother?
i can understand why this would be very advantageous for the big power people who like to drag their car, but do you think it would be advantageous for a road car? i mean.. is it really worth it? cause it seems like another problem that could possibly go wrong with your car and if the benefit isnt too great should i even bother?