Can some of you guru's PLEASE help me understand how to tune???
10-26-01, 09:43 AM
#1
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Can some of you guru's PLEASE help me understand how to tune???
I know I want to keep my o2's in the mid 11's or so, right? I'd be tuning with a o2 sensor (hopefully a wideband if I can find one) and a egt gauge.
My main question is about timing. I know the higher the number the more advanced and the lower the more retarted and thats about all I know. I really want to understand the relationship between timing and a/f ratio and how it all works together. I also need to know how you tune the timing? How do you know if it needs to be retarted at a given rpm or if it needs to be more advanced.
Thanks for any help, I just blew my motor trying to tune. I'm going to rebuild it with a friend and I REALLY dont want to blow the new one!!!!!
It would be great if some of you awsome tuners like Chrisspeed and RiceRacing could chime in and give a guy some knowledge!!!
My main question is about timing. I know the higher the number the more advanced and the lower the more retarted and thats about all I know. I really want to understand the relationship between timing and a/f ratio and how it all works together. I also need to know how you tune the timing? How do you know if it needs to be retarted at a given rpm or if it needs to be more advanced.
Thanks for any help, I just blew my motor trying to tune. I'm going to rebuild it with a friend and I REALLY dont want to blow the new one!!!!!
It would be great if some of you awsome tuners like Chrisspeed and RiceRacing could chime in and give a guy some knowledge!!!
10-26-01, 03:13 PM
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I woudl like to know too, but from my understanding the only way to properly tune for aboslutelty correct timing is to jump on a dyno, and retard or advance(in your case probably retard) to get maximum power.
10-28-01, 07:42 PM
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This question has been asked several times before. In the last thread discussing tuning of the ignition timing I asked how you can tell how far you can advance the timing. eg. EGT or A/F or anything else. That was the last post on that thread!
I don't know why noone will tell us, but I don't believe that this thread will turn out any differently. Maybe there is a bit of guesswork involved and reputable tuners don't want to tell us that they are guessing a bit, or maybe they want to keep some secrets so they can still make money, or maybe it is just to complicated to explain easily to us? I don't know, but I will be very surprised and very happy if this thread turns out any differently to any of the others.
I don't know why noone will tell us, but I don't believe that this thread will turn out any differently. Maybe there is a bit of guesswork involved and reputable tuners don't want to tell us that they are guessing a bit, or maybe they want to keep some secrets so they can still make money, or maybe it is just to complicated to explain easily to us? I don't know, but I will be very surprised and very happy if this thread turns out any differently to any of the others.
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10-28-01, 07:52 PM
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Honestly, its not that difficult.
First off, we need preliminary information:
1) What ECU are you tuning with?
2) What is your objective? 7 seconds 1/4 mile, rebuild engine every race? or good amount of power but lasting the engine life.
3) What modifications do you have to your car? (Turbo, fuel requirements like type of injectors, pumps, etc)
4) How much boost do you plan on running?
5) What type of gas do you use? (Octane)
6) Do you have access to a Dyno? Wideband O2?
7) Where is your EGT sender located?
Mike
First off, we need preliminary information:
1) What ECU are you tuning with?
2) What is your objective? 7 seconds 1/4 mile, rebuild engine every race? or good amount of power but lasting the engine life.
3) What modifications do you have to your car? (Turbo, fuel requirements like type of injectors, pumps, etc)
4) How much boost do you plan on running?
5) What type of gas do you use? (Octane)
6) Do you have access to a Dyno? Wideband O2?
7) Where is your EGT sender located?
Mike
10-28-01, 10:09 PM
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Thanks for that info. Mike. The bit I liked hearing was "Honestly, its not that difficult.".
After reading all of the factors involved it would seem that even though the process might not be overly complex it would still take a lot of typing to give someone enough information to be able to take it away and use to tune their own car. So does anyone know of a good book or web site which explains how to tune an engine?
After reading all of the factors involved it would seem that even though the process might not be overly complex it would still take a lot of typing to give someone enough information to be able to take it away and use to tune their own car. So does anyone know of a good book or web site which explains how to tune an engine?
10-29-01, 10:00 AM
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Thanks Red-RX7, it would be great if you could give some pointers and info on how everything works together. I'm not really looking for someone to tune my car over the net but rather give me general info on propler tuning for a fast street car. I'm going to make it a little conservative so I dont have to change things everytime the weather drops 20F. I also have a friend with a TII that has a FD transplant and 60-1 single turbo. He is running the Wolf and is basically making his maps from scratch, this info will be a big help for his car too!!!!
Basically here is my situation, I have a Power FC and all the bolt ons(stock turbos). I just blew my engine trying to tune it because I didnt really understand the basics on how timing and A/f work together. I'm rebuilding it this weekend with the help of a friend and dont want to blow the new one. I have no access to a dyno that can/will help me tune my car. I have no access to a mechanic that can/will help me tune my car on the street. I'm basically having to doing it myself.
All I'm looking for is things like......
How do I know if my timing is to advanced or retarded? How do you read the A/F and EGT gauges to know that? Is there a way without using a a/f and egt gauge to know you timing is ok like using timing light? Like I said earlier I'm really just looking for the basics of tuning not to have someone tune my car over the net.
Its not like I'm going to read the basics of tuning on the forum and build a 8 second car that going to put down the big dogs like Chrisspeed or something.
I dont see why they are so reluctant to lend some basic advice. Hell I'd pay any of you gurus to do it if you were within a 5 hours drive time but your not.
Anyway, Red-RX7 any advice like some do's and donts would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks for your help!!!!!
STEPHEN
Basically here is my situation, I have a Power FC and all the bolt ons(stock turbos). I just blew my engine trying to tune it because I didnt really understand the basics on how timing and A/f work together. I'm rebuilding it this weekend with the help of a friend and dont want to blow the new one. I have no access to a dyno that can/will help me tune my car. I have no access to a mechanic that can/will help me tune my car on the street. I'm basically having to doing it myself.
All I'm looking for is things like......
How do I know if my timing is to advanced or retarded? How do you read the A/F and EGT gauges to know that? Is there a way without using a a/f and egt gauge to know you timing is ok like using timing light? Like I said earlier I'm really just looking for the basics of tuning not to have someone tune my car over the net.
Its not like I'm going to read the basics of tuning on the forum and build a 8 second car that going to put down the big dogs like Chrisspeed or something.
I dont see why they are so reluctant to lend some basic advice. Hell I'd pay any of you gurus to do it if you were within a 5 hours drive time but your not.
Anyway, Red-RX7 any advice like some do's and donts would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks for your help!!!!!
STEPHEN
10-29-01, 01:21 PM
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guys, by theory the optimal timing advance is at max power. THer is no issues of how far can I advance for good power and reliability. THe right timing is max power, and max reliabilty. You have to take everything into account, and timing will be different depending on your mods. generally the more mods, the more you retard it to get max power.
I think the only answer here is you need a dyno. run it on dyno, retard a bit see if numbers get better, if not advance, etc. until you get best.
THe more volatile your mixture, the less advance you want, and the entire thing will complete faster, or the delay between firing and complete ignition of the gases wil be reduced.
by adding the octane boost, race gas, etc all you are doing is reducing the volatility inside combustion area. thus being able to have more advance. not a real benefit in many cases unless of course you are one of those guys going far beyound normal mods, in which case you won't be reading this thread anyway.
havcing said all that I am sure most tunnign shots hgave pretty goods existing maps which they have tested before and can fit them to mods, that just require little adjustment. I would recomend this especially of you have a ported engine.
I think the only answer here is you need a dyno. run it on dyno, retard a bit see if numbers get better, if not advance, etc. until you get best.
THe more volatile your mixture, the less advance you want, and the entire thing will complete faster, or the delay between firing and complete ignition of the gases wil be reduced.
by adding the octane boost, race gas, etc all you are doing is reducing the volatility inside combustion area. thus being able to have more advance. not a real benefit in many cases unless of course you are one of those guys going far beyound normal mods, in which case you won't be reading this thread anyway.
havcing said all that I am sure most tunnign shots hgave pretty goods existing maps which they have tested before and can fit them to mods, that just require little adjustment. I would recomend this especially of you have a ported engine.
10-29-01, 07:31 PM
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Thanks guys! Just one thing though, what KZ1 is saying seems to conflict a little bit with what Mike said. Mike seemed to indicate that you would set your timing a bit differently based on whether you were going for all out power rather than for power + reliablily, whereas KZ1 is saying that the two occur at the same place. Can someone clarify this?
Thanks for offering to type up a little "do's & don't" sheet Mike, I can't tell you how much I appreciate it. I am in the same boat as SPOautos with what I am after.
Thanks for offering to type up a little "do's & don't" sheet Mike, I can't tell you how much I appreciate it. I am in the same boat as SPOautos with what I am after.
10-30-01, 09:14 AM
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Dyno cant be the only way to tune timing. There are MANY MANY MANY cities in the US that dont have a dyno and people still seem to tune thier cars. Can't you do it on the street if you have the proper gauges and equipment. Using a dyno is out of the question for me so how do you tune without a dyno. I would imagine the way they know the timing is safe is by using the a/f and egt meters. I hope with those same two gauges I should be able to get a decently close/safe tune on the street.
Thanks guys,
Thanks guys,
10-30-01, 09:47 AM
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Stephan,
Even those who dyno tune usually do not use the correct dyno. To correctly tune, you will need a chassis or engine brake dyno which has the ability to maintain the engine at a fix rpm under max load. Thus you could tune at each 1000 rpm band starting at 3K up to 8K. At each band, you would adjust timing and fuel (on the run) to optimize power or slightly lower for safety. This is how the professionals do it. They even run computer controlled programs that run the engine through the rpms used on a particular track (road racing).
Most places do not have chassis brake dynos so you are forced to use inertial dynos. One problem with tuning with these, is if the sampling speed of the O2 sensor is too slow (even if it is accurate) it's readings will be observed at the wrong rpm due to the delay. This also applies to street tuning. Also how do you accurately see (lets say an 5000rpm adjustement to timing) when it goes through that point in a split second. To test for that would require mutiple runs from 4000 to 6000rpms to observe which gave the highest power at 5000 rpm. So you end up making about 18 dyno runs to make three timing assestments
for 6 rpm bands. Can be done but takes a lot of time and money.
To do this on the street, would require a very accurate accelerometer.
That is why most of us use the timing given by the big tuners and just do fuel changes with a good A/F sensor. This gives good street results.
Even those who dyno tune usually do not use the correct dyno. To correctly tune, you will need a chassis or engine brake dyno which has the ability to maintain the engine at a fix rpm under max load. Thus you could tune at each 1000 rpm band starting at 3K up to 8K. At each band, you would adjust timing and fuel (on the run) to optimize power or slightly lower for safety. This is how the professionals do it. They even run computer controlled programs that run the engine through the rpms used on a particular track (road racing).
Most places do not have chassis brake dynos so you are forced to use inertial dynos. One problem with tuning with these, is if the sampling speed of the O2 sensor is too slow (even if it is accurate) it's readings will be observed at the wrong rpm due to the delay. This also applies to street tuning. Also how do you accurately see (lets say an 5000rpm adjustement to timing) when it goes through that point in a split second. To test for that would require mutiple runs from 4000 to 6000rpms to observe which gave the highest power at 5000 rpm. So you end up making about 18 dyno runs to make three timing assestments
for 6 rpm bands. Can be done but takes a lot of time and money.
To do this on the street, would require a very accurate accelerometer.
That is why most of us use the timing given by the big tuners and just do fuel changes with a good A/F sensor. This gives good street results.
10-30-01, 10:48 AM
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Sorry I didn't have the time to get the stuff out last night.
I will try tonight.
RX7SV: I wasn't really meaning what you had said, but I was.. KZ1 is correct, but its different than how you are thinking. What I mean is this: The optium timing spot is in with Maximum HP, but thats not optium for your application.
I can make my split trailing timing 0 degrees, causing the plugs to fire at the same time. This will give you an extra few hp, but is it wise? Not for most peoples uses. This causes damage earlier in the game for most applications.. Sure thats how most 3 rotors are running, but again, its a whole bag of worms. You can do this, if it setup properly (Ie keeping the heat down).
SPOautos: You noted that if you have the propper equipment, you would think you could be able to tune... Well, very true. But I don't believe you have the propper equipment. I firmly believe you cannot tune off of an EGT gauge, or a 2-3 wire O2 sensor. The placement of these items can really effect the results. Not only that, they are not 'quality tuning items'.
Anyhow, give me some time.
I will try tonight.
RX7SV: I wasn't really meaning what you had said, but I was.. KZ1 is correct, but its different than how you are thinking. What I mean is this: The optium timing spot is in with Maximum HP, but thats not optium for your application.
I can make my split trailing timing 0 degrees, causing the plugs to fire at the same time. This will give you an extra few hp, but is it wise? Not for most peoples uses. This causes damage earlier in the game for most applications.. Sure thats how most 3 rotors are running, but again, its a whole bag of worms. You can do this, if it setup properly (Ie keeping the heat down).
SPOautos: You noted that if you have the propper equipment, you would think you could be able to tune... Well, very true. But I don't believe you have the propper equipment. I firmly believe you cannot tune off of an EGT gauge, or a 2-3 wire O2 sensor. The placement of these items can really effect the results. Not only that, they are not 'quality tuning items'.
Anyhow, give me some time.
10-30-01, 02:11 PM
#17
Yes you can tune your car without a dyno... Like cewrx7r1 said you will need a brake dyno... Otherwise your better off in the street anyway....
I wouldn't try to tune a car without these very important tools:
You need is a good WIDE BAND O2 Meter. Yes it's expensive but a very necessary tool for tuning.. Get a few of your friends to chip in for one..
Also a J & S safeguard with moniter. With the moniter you can see when your detonating and how many degrees you need to back off.
If your a rookie tuner and your trying to tune your car without these tools you can almost Guarantee engine damage..
I wouldn't try to tune a car without these very important tools:
You need is a good WIDE BAND O2 Meter. Yes it's expensive but a very necessary tool for tuning.. Get a few of your friends to chip in for one..
Also a J & S safeguard with moniter. With the moniter you can see when your detonating and how many degrees you need to back off.
If your a rookie tuner and your trying to tune your car without these tools you can almost Guarantee engine damage..
10-31-01, 04:44 PM
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basically, go get some maps from your mods and forget about it.
Here is one of the posts I was refering to by RICE RACING.
Porting plays a MASSIVE role in the engines tolerance to ignition advance.
Some peoples "street port" is nothing but a cleaned up std port, this combined with moderate exhaust port rework means that with pump gas you can run near stock port timming (ie around 20deg) up to 1 Bar gauge pressure.
Ported engines, street ports and higher, when done to their limit will significantly increase the gas pressure and flow in the rpm ranges above 6500rpm...The gains made in the Volumetric side tend to (as expected) put a lot more strain on the a/f mix when it gets compressed, because even though you are running the same 1 BAR BOOST the "effective" or dynamic compression ratio is increased a great deal over the std ported engine. Hence, in every application you will find that you need to run a lot less advance than you did on the stock ported engine. The average timming I run on street ported engines is around 15deg, this is to cover EVERY situation, High ambient conditions, bad fuel batch etc.
There are factors that can influence what I have stated above, such as the fact that if you run a restrictive exhaust system (re: wastegate/turbine/header/dump pipe) this will negate the extra flow potential of the porting you have, as will other sub systems such as IC/AIR filter/piping etc, anything that reduces the increse of VE% that the porting gives you will reduce the increse in effective compression ratio, and hence you will be able to run more advance.
It's all about the "effective compression ratio you have" the general proven rules (for a rotary with 9:1 static compression) are that at 1BAR boost assuming constant ambient temp of 15DEG C and charge temp of 30Deg C and porting used is not restricted then I have found the below limits to be a good guide, for good quality (pump) fuel.
(STOCK PORT) 20-23 deg advance ...lowest effective "dynamic" compression at max power.
(STREET PORT) 15-17 deg advance...midrange effective "dynamic" compression at max power.
(PERIPHERAL PORT) 10-12 deg advance...highest effective "dynamic" compression at max power.
Some peoples "street port" is nothing but a cleaned up std port, this combined with moderate exhaust port rework means that with pump gas you can run near stock port timming (ie around 20deg) up to 1 Bar gauge pressure.
Ported engines, street ports and higher, when done to their limit will significantly increase the gas pressure and flow in the rpm ranges above 6500rpm...The gains made in the Volumetric side tend to (as expected) put a lot more strain on the a/f mix when it gets compressed, because even though you are running the same 1 BAR BOOST the "effective" or dynamic compression ratio is increased a great deal over the std ported engine. Hence, in every application you will find that you need to run a lot less advance than you did on the stock ported engine. The average timming I run on street ported engines is around 15deg, this is to cover EVERY situation, High ambient conditions, bad fuel batch etc.
There are factors that can influence what I have stated above, such as the fact that if you run a restrictive exhaust system (re: wastegate/turbine/header/dump pipe) this will negate the extra flow potential of the porting you have, as will other sub systems such as IC/AIR filter/piping etc, anything that reduces the increse of VE% that the porting gives you will reduce the increse in effective compression ratio, and hence you will be able to run more advance.
It's all about the "effective compression ratio you have" the general proven rules (for a rotary with 9:1 static compression) are that at 1BAR boost assuming constant ambient temp of 15DEG C and charge temp of 30Deg C and porting used is not restricted then I have found the below limits to be a good guide, for good quality (pump) fuel.
(STOCK PORT) 20-23 deg advance ...lowest effective "dynamic" compression at max power.
(STREET PORT) 15-17 deg advance...midrange effective "dynamic" compression at max power.
(PERIPHERAL PORT) 10-12 deg advance...highest effective "dynamic" compression at max power.
Last edited by RX7SV; 10-31-01 at 04:52 PM.
10-31-01, 04:51 PM
#20
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Re: Can some of you guru's PLEASE help me understand how to tune???
Originally posted by SPOautos
I know I want to keep my o2's in the mid 11's or so, right? I'd be tuning with a o2 sensor (hopefully a wideband if I can find one) and a egt gauge.
My main question is about timing. I know the higher the number the more advanced and the lower the more retarted and thats about all I know. I really want to understand the relationship between timing and a/f ratio and how it all works together. I also need to know how you tune the timing? How do you know if it needs to be retarted at a given rpm or if it needs to be more advanced.
Thanks for any help, I just blew my motor trying to tune. I'm going to rebuild it with a friend and I REALLY dont want to blow the new one!!!!!
It would be great if some of you awsome tuners like Chrisspeed and RiceRacing could chime in and give a guy some knowledge!!!
I know I want to keep my o2's in the mid 11's or so, right? I'd be tuning with a o2 sensor (hopefully a wideband if I can find one) and a egt gauge.
My main question is about timing. I know the higher the number the more advanced and the lower the more retarted and thats about all I know. I really want to understand the relationship between timing and a/f ratio and how it all works together. I also need to know how you tune the timing? How do you know if it needs to be retarted at a given rpm or if it needs to be more advanced.
Thanks for any help, I just blew my motor trying to tune. I'm going to rebuild it with a friend and I REALLY dont want to blow the new one!!!!!
It would be great if some of you awsome tuners like Chrisspeed and RiceRacing could chime in and give a guy some knowledge!!!
If you have no luck, here is a condensed version of what has been going around for a while (with my spin on things)
Timming- Tune for MBT (Mean best torque, or power) at as many points you can afford
, then retard your spark timming a couple of degrees for saftey.Fuel- Go for high 14's up to 100kpa Absolute, mid 12's up to 140 to 150 kpa, and mid 11's up to 200kpa and above (this = 1bar,14.5psi gauge presure)
Timing to save you the big hassle will be in the region of 30 to 35 deg advance to 90kpa, 20 odd up to 120kpa, and anywhere from as low as 10 to 17 total advance up to 200kpa [b]Depending on what a/f you run, and what fuel, more importantly what exact type of porting/engine system specs you have. If you stick to a total engine advance of no more than 15 deg assuming your static timming (pick up) is set correctly ie: at factory mark. Then generaly you will not suffer any engine failures assuming there are no random points in your engine program (eg advance point or lean fuel point, this can happen!)
Remember all of these figures can be alot more agressive depending on other systems run such as NO2 or water/methanol injection, or very high octane race fuel.
In general stick within these figures and you should not have a problem.
How do you know if it needs to be retarted at a given rpm or if it needs to be more advanced.
MBT, detonation, or experience if you have no dyno and no money to spend a alot of time on there, You gotta remember not to reinvent the wheel. To fully map an engine from scratch to the n'th degree in some cases can use up an engine just from wear and tear let alone a failure when pushing for the limit.
Stick with in the above limits I stated and enjoy your new engine, even if it does loose around %5 of it's absolute maximum tune, it's a lot more fun driving than rebuilding motors.
11-01-01, 02:03 AM
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WOW!!! Now thats some awsome info!!!! I didnt think I would actually get numbers, I just figured someone would tell me how to read the gauges to know if its right or not. Thank RICE RACING!!!!! That post is a big help to me as well as others!!!
My new engine will be a true street port. It seems from your post that the best thing for me to do is start with a 15 advance across the board from idle to redline then while driving change them a little at a time within the parameters that you've specified and just feel for a difference while looking at my gauges to make sure they are within a safe range.
Can I know if my timing can be pushed a little more or if its basically close to the limit by looking at the gauges? Are there any signes that let me know I'm too advanced and I need to back or a little like my egts getting to high or something like that?
If my egt and o2(wide band) are within thier safe range does that mean everything is ok or could there still be detonation?
Sorry for my ignorance but what is the formula for translating kpa into gauge pressure? If I tune my A/F to say 11's at 200kpa (14.5 gauge pressure) does it matter if I'm running a huge turbo or stock twins or does that a/f and gauge pressure go hand in hand for any turbo application? Maybe I'm totally off, when you say "gauge pressure" you are refering to boost gauge pressure right?
BTW - I would love to hit the dyno but there is only one dyno within a reasonable distance and I wouldnt let them touch my car for anything. They dont know jack about rotarys!!!!
Thanks a ton!!!!!! This is exactly the kind of info I was wishing for!!!
STEPHEN
My new engine will be a true street port. It seems from your post that the best thing for me to do is start with a 15 advance across the board from idle to redline then while driving change them a little at a time within the parameters that you've specified and just feel for a difference while looking at my gauges to make sure they are within a safe range.
Can I know if my timing can be pushed a little more or if its basically close to the limit by looking at the gauges? Are there any signes that let me know I'm too advanced and I need to back or a little like my egts getting to high or something like that?
If my egt and o2(wide band) are within thier safe range does that mean everything is ok or could there still be detonation?
Sorry for my ignorance but what is the formula for translating kpa into gauge pressure? If I tune my A/F to say 11's at 200kpa (14.5 gauge pressure) does it matter if I'm running a huge turbo or stock twins or does that a/f and gauge pressure go hand in hand for any turbo application? Maybe I'm totally off, when you say "gauge pressure" you are refering to boost gauge pressure right?
BTW - I would love to hit the dyno but there is only one dyno within a reasonable distance and I wouldnt let them touch my car for anything. They dont know jack about rotarys!!!!
Thanks a ton!!!!!! This is exactly the kind of info I was wishing for!!!
STEPHEN
Last edited by SPOautos; 11-01-01 at 02:19 AM.
11-01-01, 02:27 PM
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A/F numbers
SPO your A/F ratio is not based on what turbo you have or what porting you have (maybe on an NA??). It is based on what fuel you are running.
Rice's advice is always excellent advice since it comes from real life experience and not just what someones friend said like many others.
Rice's advice is always excellent advice since it comes from real life experience and not just what someones friend said like many others.
11-01-01, 05:24 PM
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Mike, I'm still interested in your do's and donts as well!!!!
RICE RACING: Do you ever do any work in Victoria, or is it all in Sydney?