Why buy N/A then do a bajillion dollar Turbo swap instead of buying a TII?
 

I'm curious why so many people buy N/A cars and spend another 3-5k including time and labor on swapping the car over to turbo. And more often than not, the car never runs right! But when approached with a clean, properly running, emissions passing TII that same person choses to pass it up because it costs $5-6k.

can you say not enough funds right now????




< NA and staying that way!

Because some people just need something to do :dunno:

And why not convert all of the world's NAs over to turbos?

idk, cuz we are all cheap???

at least the turbo procces is over a period of time and you can space it out a bit... dont have to drip it all at once! haha

N/A all the way!!

Why buy a TII and not spend all that time getting to know your car? Built, not bought.

I have WAY too much time, money, and emotions invested in this thing to sell it for a T2. I'd rather do a swap.

My goal is to have about double the power I have now some day (320ish)... not bike fast, but I'm hoping for a strong squirt of power when I hit the throttle.

Alright....to get away from the pregnant woman at home......you got me

Cause you start with a n/a that has 150k miles on it, drive it hard for x amount of years, then oil seals/coolant/apex seals blow out and the motor is gone. now faced with the prospect of a motor swap, be it n/a or turbo, most would rather go turbo instead of going back to the n/a since it is lower power. Problem is, it costs a lot more since u can get your n/a rebuilt for a grand + and buying an imported 13bt is a crap shoot (read the horror stories). I didnt' want to roll the dice so i bought a rebuilt n/a motor.

Turbo II bargains are also harder to find in my area. The $1600 i spent on my n/a was $3400 less then what most were asking for a TII and i could not justify spending that much more for 40hp when I already have fun with 146. That, and the one's on craigslist at the time were bootsy (missing rims, not starting, busted interior, etc...). They are not always bootsy, but during the time i was looking i could not find a decent one.

But, i've owned 3 n/a's and i have to say the next rotary i get is going to be a TII just cause. I've considered the swap as well, but i would just rather start with a TII as a base for making my project instead of making my GXL a turbo. The j-specs are easier to find online compared to the usdm motors (since you have find a totaled TII or one with a blown motor that needs a rebuild).

because clean TII's are a lot harder to find, especially S5's. AND the price.

n/a -> turbo in under $1000 is quite easy, just depends on how much N/A stuff you use.

because you can find base model N/A's with no sunroof

sun roofs are irrelevant.

i spent tons of money in my t2 swap, and its just soo much more fun to do it that way. i know you can buy a t2 used. but its all ragged on and old and whatever. i went with haltech and all new components. cost me a good bit of dough.

This is the way I see it, to restore a 20 year old car you have to pretty much remove the entire powertrain once anyway. Like when you rebuild an engine, change transmissions, replace mounts, etc. The people looking to build it right way prefer the NA cars because they're cheap and readily available and the people that build it eventually just don't want to save for a T2. The extra cost (over the initial cost of a TII, if any) of a TII swap would be equal to the interest I'd pay if I had taken a loan, but without the experience of having done all the work myself and the knowledge of the car I'd gain.

I didn't buy a TII because for a daily driver the only way I'd get any RX-7 is if its been rebuilt recently and S5 TIIs go for 7-8k rebuilt and in good condition, I lived in an area with strict law enforcements (and had too many tickets) so I didn't want to be tempted to street race, I was getting out of drag racing at the time and didn't want to deal with turbo-related engine problems at a driving event or on a "private" course since suspension, wheels, brakes, tires and driving were things I was uneducated and curious about. Also being my first rotary powered car I was discouraged by misinformed friends and family advising against it and wanted to deal with a simpler engine to be on the safe side.

I don’t ever think it is the cheaper option. The re-sale of an NA that has been turbocharged compared to a TII will be crap all. That means all the funds divested on the engine swap will be lost should you decide to sell. If you don’t factor is selling it can be a reasonable option

I also think that if you got a TII and spent the hours that a turbo swap would have taken on tuning and driving your car you will have a far better understanding of your car than the guy who had only performed an engine swap.
What do you learn from doing an engine swap that has any relevance to your car? You can’t truly learn anything until the car is running to give feedback.

why start with a TII with emissions that you are gunna take off when you can start with a N/A with emissions crap that you are gunna take off while building something faster than a stock TII

1. How to replace most engine bay parts like slave cylinder, clutch, motor mounts, tranny mounts, wiring, MOTOR, emissions, filters, et all. I had not done most of those things prior to my engine swap. I think that maintenance and such are very relevant to my car as that is what keeps it going, much like a new motor.

2. If the car does not run you have to learn to fix it.

so true...

Plus building a motor is super fun.... the best part of driving the car after is knowing your hands bled to make that happen

also motor swaps let you figure out wat is really unneccessary in your engine bay.... the factory has a way of including alot of crap

What type of "tuning" would you be doing? And how will you have a better understanding of how your car works by just driving it? Also I wouldn't plan on swapping the engine over and then never starting it, the point is to do so and then drive it...Its also not an engine swap but an entire powertrain, ECU and wiring harness swap. It should be pretty obvious what you learn after doing all that work. The reason I bought a 20 year old car was so that I can slowly (as time and money comes) restore it and rebuild it with the best combination of parts myself and learn by doing it. Buying a rebuilt TII would defeat the purpose and a blown TII was out of the question because I needed transportation.

Besides personal preference, it all comes down to local availability of parts and cars.

Tuning- adjustments and modifications…
I usually start with wheels and tyres, then exhaust and intake, followed by suspension components before I touch anything else. A compression test, dyno run and programmable ecu would be my next steps
You can pretty much tune you car in any direction from that point if you catch my drift?

I was approaching the problem from the angle of having your car work perfectly, not learning the basics of how you car works.


In the end the whole point is driving you car is it not? There is a reason why there is such a variety of aftermarket parts available for just about ever aspect of a car, while price is part of it driving style and personal preference it the reason.
You could experiment on break pads alone for months.


Of cause I realize you plan on driving the car after the build, but its at that point that you are “reasonably” close to the TII starting point for comparative reasons

I guess that Resented that your tone seemed to suggest that someone who buys a TII is somehow less technical proficient as they could have bought an inferior car and got it close to the TII standard.
Let’s be realistic most of the guys who do the swap are just after cheap power and will do the minimum required to achieve that often at the detriment of there engine.

because there are less turboII's to go around than N/A's... and some of the TII's ive seen for "a really good deal" arent even worth the money needed to repair all the problems to put back on the road and legal.....

two words.......Turbo Vert!!!!!

cause we can. thats why. Simple. I don't want to buy someones headache, I want to make my own.

My gxl came with 4 piston fronts. I had a tII donor car (87) with the clutch type rear end...Picked up my 89 gxl for $600...jdm engine and tranny $1800, I prolly had $400 in the TII which is the hood and rear end drive shaft and misc other parts I needed for swap...so we will say $2800 for a car that is the same as a tII. Plus when I pull up to the next guy I know just about every nut and bolt from front to rear.

You know, I've done 4 conversions so far. I currently have a turbo vert up for sale on the forum, I just finished a s5 GTU -> TII conversion and for some reason yesterday was wondering... why I just spent so much time doing all that work. Uh oh... I'm reflecting!

Because its better than watching tv?

This is all assuming that you have purchased a TII that has had every filter, mount, bushing, and any other worn out part already replaced which is very unlikely. When swapping the NA car you can replace all of this and know that its been done properly. Not only this, but because most FC owners are High School or college students with low paying part time jobs, we'd much rather own an NA FC and be driving it and learning about the car instead of having no transportation and saving money.

You're at the TII starting point then with the knowledge you have gained after removing and replacing your engine, transmission, rear end, wiring harness and anything else thats easy to replace while all thats out. This is all useful because while competing in any type of motorsport (even street racing) you are guaranteed to eventually wear out and break parts. If you had just bought a TII you would have instead spend all that time working at your crappy job and saving money. And yes, someone who has done a TII swap on an NA will be more knowledgeable of his car than someone who has just bought one. And you wouldn't be getting it close to a TII standard you would be meeting it.

I disagree, if cheap power was all we were after, we would all be driving 5.0 Mustangs.

One word INSURANCE. I pay $35 a month for insurance on my s4 NA. Now why would the insurance company ask me if I swapped it over to a turbo?

NA + TII =

https://www.rx7club.com/attachment.p...1&d=1209315104

In my area, they are selling questionably running T2s for $4-6k and decent ones for $6-10k... Honestly its not worth it in my opinion...

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Nonrunning NA w/a descent body (no major dents/rust) = $100-500

DIY engine rebuild using bare minimal parts (being sure that everything is w/i spec.) ~ $1k

New carpet for the whole car = $300-400

New rims/tires = $500-1500

2 fleabay bucket seats = $200-500

Maaco economy paint = $300-600

Used RB headers w/ custom exhaust ~ $200-500
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Its so much cheaper to build an N/A.... Also, if you want it to be boosted, then you only need to add

JDM 13BT or 13BRE~ $800-1500 (rebuild will be around the same price as above.)

T2 tranny-> $100-200

Turbo->NA driveshaft->400

LSD-> $300-600
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Keep in mind that these are rough estimates being done remembering the average prices that I have encountered when doing these swaps....

i like to because you know what you are getting. you will know alot more about your car. if something ever goes wrong(and it will) you know what how and where to look. and besides who does not want to do it really. a turbo costs 8k for a nice one i bought my N/a for 300$ and my turbo for 1000$ 1300$. i would take a 1300$ t2 any day. o and its not in bad shape the N/A had a blown motor. one of the nicest 7's i have seen in my area

it could be cheaper for instance i traded a 72 chevy pickup for my 86 na or it would have been $1000 and i could put a turbo in for roughly $800 and i will have more boost than a stock turbo 2.

i have a N/A and they say that with a single turbo add on, these cars have more power then the turbo 2's ever will with a turbo swap out

QFMFT.

But I went a different direction (see sig VV):D

3-5k? for a swap? where are you getting these figures?
if you are an ebay user theres no way it costs that much. i did a sseries swap and it wasnt even that much.
NOT to the mention not that i did my swap i know every inch of my car! i could take everything apart and put it right back together. i know what everything does now too. It was a good experience for me(being 18years old). although it can be a pain in the ass it truely is the most knowledgable way. I love telling techs with 20+ experience on car what which part is and how it works etc etc.
That is why i continued my swap

not to mention i bought my n/a for 500 bucks and my motor+trans for 1300

Yea I tried to avoid it the most, so I just waited it out for a turbo II (took 3 years haha)

In my case it is the never ending quest for a more powerfull rotary. Years ago I bought my 88 NA RX7 for 800 with the engine in pieces. Before this one I had a 82 RX7 so I knew a little bit about the rotary. well I rebuilt my 88 NA engine and afterwards knew every part under the hood then the swaps began... a year after I went with the S5 NA and learned how to swap in an S5 engine in an S4 car, that was fun i guess. Then after enjoying about 170 hp of NA fun I drove my friend's built TII. Next swap was a custom turbo swap. By now I knew everything about building rotary engines and things I can do to make them better so I made my own custom turbo engine with S5 internals RX8 shaft lightweight flywheel S5 intakes, Hybrid S5 turbo, mazdaspeed clutch, J spec TII trans with short throw, FMIC, blah blah blah the knowledge came through for me and now I have one bad ass RX7 that looks like an NA but has the power to stand up to many 3rd gen RX7's and enough power to keep you in your seat when you floor it.

In the end I took my first 2nd gen and put every gen engine in it while keeping it looking stock. I will say Money had a lot to do with it. I wasn't making a whole lot when I bought the 2nd gen so I did what I could with what I had. Its kinda like getting a loan for a TII where you don't pay 5000 all at once, you pay it over time which in my case was much better AND I know every nut and bolt on that car front to back and the solution to every problem it might have because I practically built it, mazda provided the parts. The pride I have in that car is un explainable too. To know that you built the engine and everything around it and have even bled making it all happen is something.

I'll say I'd rather do a swap to an NA and then know everything about it then going out and busting my bank on a rebuilt TII.

rebuilt good condition TII's are rare and expensive, Great NA's are cheap, puting a TII engine in it is still cheaper than buying a TII.

I bought a flipped TII that ran and I could kinda test drive lol for $1200

Found a super clean 88 GTU with a popped motor for $900


It took one weekend to rip every thing out of the cars and put TII EVERY THING in the N/A

I then sold off a bunch of left over parts rearend, tranny, wheels, seats etc and made about half of my money back


Not saying every one could do this this is just my story. After all the little things and painting the hood to match the other car etc. I had a really nice TII for under or right around $2K

I guess it sounds like alot of work but it only took a weekend in my garrage to swap every thing out and I learned alot about every part of the car.


This was quite a while ago about 5 years and I no longer have the car just wanted to share :)

all the t2s around here were either beat or series 4. i bought a bone stock MINT s5 gxl and im swapping it cuz the chassis im starting with is in amazing shape. and too me its much easier to swap an engine and do that work then do body work and rust repair

I wanted a Turbo Sport... Now I have one, and its bliss! :D

Ya you can do a "turbo swap" for a grand but you can also buy a "T2" for a grand. Both usually need over 3 grand to fix. 3-5k is probably more reasonable for a swap that works without a great deal of luck.

I think people do it either because they're cheap and don't realize what it'll cost them later or they do know what they're getting into and just like to work on cars. Also, turbo vert.

Not at all expensive. I was given my 1988 se by my cousin. Corksport luce engine (t2) 1700.00, clutch, sensors ebayintercooler , bla bla bla 600.00. That looks like a well running bootleg t2 for 2300.00. Pulled na engine, installed t2, and wired it in about a weeks time over the summer. I could have done it a lot quicker if i wasnt helping my dad with his garage. I have just about approaching 4 grand total in my car. Still a lot cheaper than purchasing a "stock" high mileage t2.

Oh shit....boost lee thread.......thanks again for the wing, man.

john ny

Holy old thread batman!

But to add some .02,
Not everyone can find TII's. In my area, Rx7's are rare. Doesn't matter what gen. And finding a TII here that someone wants to actually sell? Forget it.

^^^^^Yeah....i figured the same thing, might as well comment. :)

john ny

My reason is rather simple, I just wanted to buy a car in the best overall condition. Then do whatever I can to make it that much better. Eventually its going to boil down to I want to slap a turbo on this thing, because lets face it, some of us just got that turbo itch. Yeah I could probably sell this and get TII but then I wouldn't know whats been done and if everything is in the best condition. I guess its about knowing my car so to speak, and knowing that any work done to it is done by me.

My last 7 was a TII and I ended up having a few people do work on it for me and it just doesn't sit well with me. I like to do things myself. So even if it gets messed up I know its my fault and I learn something from it. It really boils down to circumstance I think.

Lets add to the Dust on this thread.Have you ever Seen a Good running TII that is priced about 500 Bucks?.Not unless you have a Golden Horse-Shoe up your Keester.Most TII's have already had the Crap driven out of them,so What's left of them after that?
On the other hand,you can get a Good running N/A,that would last for YEARS.You get to drive it around,redline it,find out what makes it Tick,then Suddenly IT hits:the quest for more Power,More Speed,More MONEY!
So you take your Wallet,spread it to the Wind and Pray to the Rotary Gods.give me a Rebuilt TII keg.Give me a Big ass Snail and a standalone,front mount intercooler and so many Gauges so I can't see the Road!!...Thanks GOD,I did IT.I Built a TII!!
Yeehah!..Does that answer the question???..what was the question?..LOL!.Cheers,STYX~

n/a u get the spend the time to get to know ur car inside and out and once the engine blows u can spend all the time in the world working on the car and doing the tII swap and gaining more power. but imo i stayed N/A when my engine blew.

If you ask me it turns out to be cheaper in the long run to just buy an NA and do a turbo swap. Drive the NA while your building a brand new engine. You may spend $1500 building your own engine, but it will be a great learning experience and it will be a new motor.

$3-5,000? I would never pay that for a 13bt with 100,000+ miles.

The same reason someone wouldn't buy a TII with everything already done to it for 9k and would rather pay a shop 15k to make their car just like that TII...