Evil Aviator

So which is it, stock n/a or ported? I don't understand why you care how a stock n/a with a standalone EMS runs if you are going to port your engine. Anyway, if you would like to come to St. Pete with me sometime, I'm sure that I can arrange a demonstration of what an EMS can do for a stock 13B n/a. You may or may not be impressed, but at least it will expose you to horsepower mods of this century.

Racing Beat quotes a 20hp gain for their carb kit on a stock 13B n/a with a header. I would estimate about the same for an EMS, but the EMS will also allow for better fuel and ignition tuning across the entire rpm and load range, as well as compensating for atmospheric changes, and depending on the model it may also include datalogging, rev limiter, inlet air temperature readout and vacuum readout (for determining the best setup for your intake), and other worthwhile functions that are not available with a carb. Another advantage of the EMS that has not been discussed is that it can grow with the car. Conversely, an n/a 13B needs anything from a 450cfm to a 650cfm carb, depending on the porting. Also, if you have more than one car, and only drive one at a time (maybe one is a weekend-only car, for example), you can easily swap one EMS between both cars within a few minutes - can't do that with a carb and still hold a tune.

I totally agree with your point about the vendors supplying appropriate data. If they want to talk smack, they should be able to at least show some type of performance stats.

Two of my three friends who are running a standalone EMS use it on a stock-ported 13B NA, and both of them will eat a stock S4 TII for lunch.

NZConvertible

I think he means completely stock, not just stock ports.

Evil Aviator

Well if it has a standalone EMS or carburetor, then it's not stock, lol.

bill Shurvinton

I give in. I post a dyno plot and he ignores it. Strange person. I can only assume that he likes carbs and doesn't want to even consider discussion of other options

Rotary7s

Ok heres the deal..

I wanted a comparisan on stock engine with the OEM ecu,Then say one with the standalone (Haltec/Microtech,Wolfe)

I want to see how much HP was gained...

Lets say 20 more HP was gained..
Im pretty sure I can get 20 MORE with half the cost..and even doing it buy going carbed.

So to me a $1000. mod for 20 more HP is not worth it,
Yes your idea on how to swap the standalone on several cars is nice..

Its expensive so if you have more than one EFI car you can swap the standalone and have the maps saved..


Well heres the deal ..

If I get just the short block..I will go carbed..and let you know the out come with HP on a dyno etc etc..But If its stays FI I wont buy a stand alone..maybe just rechip the ECU...and other mods..

Rotary7s

Do you understand english?

This response was for your :dyno plot:

What was that dyno plot for? Just keeping the 6 ports wired open?

I have NOT one time asked for dynos on that..

Here it is in plain english if you want to be a smart ***..

2 Dyno results,
On a completely STOCK engine to show HP gain from a aftermarket stand alone (Haltec,Microtech,Wolf)

150 rwhp wont be anything im shooting for ..lol

bill Shurvinton

And I gave you 2 dyno plots. Same engine. Stock vs a $120 megasquirt, so only change was the addition of the computer. This stays within the rules of the class Tim runs but gives extra HP and therefore a competitive edge.

Any other mods will add extra to that. BUT YOU ASKED FOR STOCK, assumedly so you could then say that by putting a completely different intake on you could get more HP.

Again $120. The same $120 unit will be helping get some 230HP out my pre-85 13B 4-port when I get it back in the car. And the same unit is running a series 2 12A with a 50DCOE where the whole install cost less than $500. That $500 knocked some 3 seconds off the 0-60 time on a stock engine. The engine has now been ported and I am awaiting results.

The point is that you don't have to spend $1000 to get significant HP increases. The bar for EFI starts at $40 and goes up. There are many choices for people to make

If you are an expert at tuning holleys and are therefore happy to stick with what you know and can make work I have no issue at all with that. But try and make it a discussion rather than a muck throwing competition

Bill

NZConvertible

You'll never get 40hp more from throwing a carb onto a stock motor. Don't make silly claims. You need to learn a little more about EFI before you assume it's poor value for money. As Evil Aviator has already told you, either option will give you about 20hp more, and that's a fairly realistic result. But that's just a peak value. The EFI will give you a much better spread of power and torque because of it's far more accurate fuel delivery and spark control. This will make the car faster and more responsive, while using less fuel.

You need to get this "peak hp" thing out of you head because there's far more to an engine's performance than just one number. It sounds a whole lot like you've already decided to go carb'd because you don't understand EFI.

No7Yet

Just wanted to highlight this - the Microtech LT8 controls timing, something the Megasquirt doesn't do (as well has having a few other advantages). There are even more gains to be had (referring to Bill's dyno compro) from proper timing control, and slapping a 12A dizzy on a 13B is most definitely not "proper timing control".

Brandon
BR7 Racing

addendum: Yes, the E6K controls timing, too, but it's a bit more expensive, and this thread is all about cheep.

bill Shurvinton

NO need for *ahem*

They are targeting different markets. I write code, so like being able to modify my EFI to what I want. Some want to by a box and plug it in.

We're working on rotary spark control, as soon as i get off my **** (and this forum) and onto the bench again.

No7Yet

Duly noted, post edited, and apologies offered.

FWIW, I think the megasquirt is very cool, it's just not a complete enough package to suit me - too toy-like. I hope someone jumps on it like TechEdge did with the DIY wideband and offers it via retail.

Brandon
BR7 Racing

bill Shurvinton

No need to apologise.

Re: built units. Someone does offer an assembly service, although this is causing palpitations amongst some in the group. I think its $220 for a built unit.

But even then its targetted firmly at the hard core DIY type.

Bill

bill Shurvinton

Addendum:

Yes it is a 'toy' ( fun to play with), but it is not 'Toy like'. On the fuel side there is nothing the microtech does that it can't, and the latest SW does a few things the microtech doesn't. The hundreds of developers out there mean that new routines are being added all the time, so it gets better and better.

Bill

Rotary7s

Who made silly *claims it was an example,first of all the engine wouldnt be stock ..It would be ported.and converted to my needs.

Yes I already decided to go carb..if you read the first post on this thread I asked mainly what fuel pump did someone run converting to carb ..I didnt ask you opinon on a standalone.Like I said it before,I would NOT put a standalone on a N/A rotary for the fact I feel it would not justify the $1000. price tag compared to HP..

Why?Cause im looking for something to run hard quick,and cheap. I can get this car running the way I want..blow the engine or T bone the body and wouldnt even worry ..Im not looking for a Sunday driver..



Hey its al good your tring to preach about a product,but can you show before and after results on paper?

Im pretty sure alot of us would like to see it..

This thread is not all about cheap..its what I wanna do ..

It dont matter if it takes your $1000. EMS to get you where you want your car to be ..or it takes me my carb where I want to be .. I like to do ****,they way want to do it ..and the outcome maybe be cheap..But if it keeps my pockets happy..then its all good..

BR7 racing is that on 1/4 mile? Can you show some of yoru time slips and mods?

No7Yet

We'll have before-and-after dyno sheets on a stockport S4 N/A with K&N cone, VDI manifold, RB header, midpipe, and HKS catback on Saturday. The strip was closed during the only chance we would have had to get some "before" timeslips, but we're not drag racers anyway (I believe in turns, and more than just leftward ones ). We'll get some next opportunity. We will have some before-and-after 30-60 and 40-70 numbers, too.

The numbers you'll see on Saturday will be with all stock manifolding. We've got a Weber-style TBI setup on the way which replaces the stock upper intake manifold and throttle body with something that looks sort of like a Weber, but will flow MUCH better than any carb ever could (just fuel, no venturis). We'll be posting a compro for that, too (after all, we do sell the things ). After that, it's rebuild and porting time.

It sounds like you're set on getting a carb. That's fine. More power to ya. I say that a well-tuned standalone EMS, while not as cheap as a "hookup price" carbie/dizzy creation, will drive better and make more power under almost all conditions. And it'll start on a cold day, too. Seriously, I only joined in because I wanted to correct Aaron Cake's "$1000" price, when you can get an LT8 with laptop adapter for $725. You do whatever blows your skirt up.

Brandon
BR7 Racing

NZConvertible

You're right, but these carb discussions usually come down to comparing carbs to EFI. This is usually because there's a shitload of misinformation out there about EFI, and it seems to be posted again and again and again... The fact is you get what you pay for. I know a carb will work very well (they have for many years), but EFI will work better. EFI is not about getting the highest peak power, because performance is not about just peak power. It's much more complicated than that. Microtech and all the other EMS's out there are not new products. They've been around for many, many years. Check out Australian websits and you'll see they're very common. Because Australia is basically the home of aftermarket programmable EFI (Haltech, Microtech, MoTec and others are all from there) they're cheap and knowledge is plentiful. There is tons of info on the net and in magazines proving how well these products work. Some work better than others, but just like carbs this often comes down to the tuner more than the unit. Yeah, but you wanna do it because it's cheap. You've made that pretty clear.
Personally I hope you do go ahead with your carb plans. Despite all the talk around here, very few people actually do it. It would be good to get some info on what you did and some real world results. As for your original question, you'd probably have better luck if you searched through the 1st Gen section because most of them are already carb'd.

Rotary7s

Why would I search the First gen section on questions about a FC and a 13b 6 port?
I know what to use to convert the engine carbed on the engienside..Im concerned about the intank fuel pump,and converting it over for a carbed fuel pump..

Other than that I got the rest..

Thanks anyways

NZConvertible

I was talking about the pump! That was your original question!

Rotary7s

Ok let me educate you some,
FC,s come with High pressured intank fuel pumps.

Carbed First gens fuel pumps DO NOT sit in the gas tank,they use an inline pump..and on my first gen I run a Holley Blue pump..

I wanted to run this same set up but not sure to go about it cuse ofthe stock FC intank fuel pump.

If you dont know the answer NZConvertible,dont act like you do ..You might learn a thing or 2.

NZConvertible

Really? No wonder I couldn't find it under the car! And I looked for sooo long... Still waiting to be educated... So why didn't you ask that originally? All you asked was "What fuel pump do you run?" I assumed you'd figured this bit out for yourself. I never said I knew the answer, if I did I would've posted it. Instead I directed you to some people I thought might be able help you out, because not many people bother with carbs on FC's. Pardon me for trying to help you with your original question, which you bitched about no-one doing. It's pretty obvious from this post and others above that you're not the slightest bit interested in listening to anything anyone else has to say, so I don't know why you bothered coming here.

Snufelupogus

iTrader: (2)

I got a weber 45dcoe carb, rb intake, air filter, injector plugs shipped to my door for $500cdn...

Evil Aviator

The 1Gen GSL-SE has a similar 13B engine setup to the 2Gen, as they both have EFI, DEI, 6PI, and an AFM. Also, the 1Gen owners tend to be older and tend to have more experience with outdated performance modifications like a carb kit. I agree that the 1Gen section is your best bet.

Rotary7s

Hey thats not a bad price..is that used?

45s are pretty small ..about good for a 12A stock port,So wouldnt you think its small for a 13B?
Do you have it on yet and what was the outcome..



Yeah I didnt think about that cause if you needed to you can swap tanks..I will ask anyways..

deltr0n`

well i read a little more than half of this thread and i was wondering which one would provide more power to a fully moded n/a, since you guys are talking only changing the ecu or adding carb on a stock n/a... what about a fully moded n/a ported and all... which one would come out on top?

because from what ive heard from jeff at rotary power is he built up a fully moded 6-port with the RB carb setup (which gives the most gains out of all the other carb setups) FOR RacingBeat, and that produced 220hp if i recall correctly, and im pretty sure he also mentioned to me that its the most power your gonna get out of a n/a by going with the RB carb setup.

correct me if im wrong but i would think he knows his ****, because he's built up modded engines for both abel and adam's FD's... and on top of that one of them that holds the fastest 1/4 time as we speak is the motor jeff built.

so yeah i just thought id throw that in there and see what you guys have to say, because i was considering a carb setup myself.

bill Shurvinton

There was a couple of articles on that recently. Althought the EFi (IDA) produced more peak power than either Holley or Dellorto it was stated that the inlet was too short. With a longer trumpet fitted the results might have been different.

Here is a precis of the carb results

No muffler: Peak HP
Holley: 227 @ 8400
48 DHLA Dellorto: 220@7900
44 PHH Mikuni: 216 @ 8300

With muffler: Peak HP
Holley: 224 @ 8400
48 DHLA Dellorto: 211@8100
44 PHH Mikuni: 208 @ 7900

They were all pretty close until about 4500 rpm, when the side-drafts started beating the Holley. From 5000 to about 7100, the Dell was best by quite a bit, and the Holley's advantage was only above 7300

As much as anything this is a case study in how tuned lengths effect the induction. Doesn't prove anything on carb vs EFI but does show that RB were being economical with the truth when they originally stated that there was very little to be gained porting 6-ports

Bill