PseudoKirby

comparing a TII swap with a turbo'd NA which engine is better compression wise and what are the differences internally, I keep hearing the NA refered to as a 6 port, how many ports does the TII have?
are the transmissions and Rear Diffs the same? as far as gearings and Final Drive Ratio


as far as cost I forsee Turboing the NA as a better option, because I will have to get a AFC and other engine management in the end anyway if I want to upgrade to a better turbo right?
with an exhaust manifold like This in the end anyway
How much boost and how much horsepower can the Stock Rotors on the NA or the TII run before needing better internals?



basically in the long run which one would be a better choice for a built car?
I really only wanna shoot for around 300HP in the end with a GT35R Turbo
IDK I still have much to learn about actual turbos and brands, ive got the basics down and all that but thats NOT THE POINT
I have done quite a bit of Research already, and am trying my best to learn everything I can on the subject

oh and I am speaking of the S5 Engines

Spirit-RE

iTrader: (25)

Research research research. You would be much better off with a TII swap.
TII motors are 4 ports.
TII trans, driveshaft, and rear end are different than the n/a.

Spirit-RE

iTrader: (25)

Oh and don't do the ebay turbo bs like in the link you provided. the quality sucks.

rx7racerca

iTrader: (1)

NA has higher compression, which potentially means higher performance potential, if properly built and tuned, but risk of detonation and therefore engine destruction is also higher. There is a LOT of fabrication involved in doing a NA-turbo, and it doesn't sound like you have a lot of familiarity with rotaries to guide your build, so I'd suggest a TII swap. Especially since your HP goals are moderate - plus, you're likely to need a TII drivetrain (tranny, driveshaft, rearend including axles) - the NA parts are not likely to last long even at 300HP.

Look up Aaron Cake's TII-NA (Tina) build - he extensively documented his process of building an NA S4 into a Turbo. Even though I'm suggesting swap a TII, it'll give you a lot of insight into the whole process, and the choices between turboing an NA vs going with a TII.

PseudoKirby

what? even that one I provided? you did look at it right? cause it LOOKS really nice and it doesnt look like other ebay turbo kits I have seen

I was mainly looking at this guide that was supplied in the FAQ.

so is the TII Transmission really THAT much of an improvement over NA?

and would i be able to hit 300+ HP on stock internals? maybe even a street port with it (I LOVE that sound)


my ultimate goal of all this is to get hands on experience and in the end maybe trade up for an FD after all of it

oh also, Detonation? wouldnt a good Intercooler help against pre-detonation?

2slow4stock

iTrader: (18)

My S5 6 port turbo is running strong and reliable. You just have to retard the ignition a few degrees... I'm running -1 to 0 on my leadings for timing so I can boost more than 10 and be safe. But just stick to the simple stuff like swapping in engines.

N/a to Turbo are easy in my opinion, also racerca, The n/a trans can hold 400hp, that's when Aaron Cake's trans went.

tevan

iTrader: (4)

For the amount of money your gonna spend just buy a TII motor man you will be happier in the long run.

lastphaseofthis

iTrader: (8)

[QUOTE=PseudoKirby;9496677]
so is the TII Transmission really THAT much of an improvement over NA?
[QUOTE]

I broke first gear completely apart in my N/a tranny. with An N/a engine, what do you think the turbo is going to do? The turboTrannys are said to be good for 500+ hp.

arghx

iTrader: (3)

6 port turbo setups are best left to experienced owners such as Aaron Cake.

SirCygnus

iTrader: (1)

that is false information.

anyone with welding skills and some tuning skills is experienced enough.

Aaron Cake

iTrader: (1)

I would suggest only tackling an NA-turbo setup if you have the experience and skill necessary to pull it off.

Remember, a TII swap is bolt-in. With the well documented procedure, it's a weekend job as long as you have all the parts handy.

Any NA-turbo setup will require at least a little fabrication. The easiest way is to swap all the TII external components onto the NA engine, but I have to wonder, why not just use the full TII engine at that point?

PseudoKirby

I figured with the higher compression that the NA would be better

plus it would be easier for me to get ahold of the parts

the cheapest TII engine I have found is $1k, I wish I could fine one for around $800, but then again thats without transmission and apparently I will need the tranny no matter what..

BuujinBejiita

iTrader: (4)

Im doing a swap right now, the best way to do it is just to buy a TII 'Swap', it comes with the ecu, the harness, the trans, started motor ect ect. That way you get everything in one package rather then piecing it together. You will need a TII trans->N/A rear end custom driveshaft unless of course you swap the rear end as well.

The Shaolin

iTrader: (5)

You have a lot of research to do. All of those answers (and much, much more) are buried in this section. Spend some quality time with the search function, you won't regret it.

KhanArtisT

iTrader: (2)

What the hell do you need to weld to do a 6 port turbo?

Everyone ***** themselves when they see Aaron's page on his setup, which (having run it personally) is THE worst way to do a 6 port turbo. Thats more like the "read this if you want to be scared away from a 6 port turbo" how-to.

In reality its quite easy and requires little fabrication if you take the proper route and get the TII intakes (Japan2LA sells them). Plus the 8000rpm redline of the S5 setups is fun. If you plan to stay stock turbo forever, the 4 port setup will be more reliable because the engine is more friendly with the stock ECU. If you're eventually getting a standalone and a turbo upgrade though, the 6 port turbo setup will beat the 4 port in just about every way. More power and better response at less boost.

Either way, the SAFC won't do **** in either setup. It changes your timing and besides that, ignition timing is more critical than AFRs since the stock ECU keeps the car pretty rich even under boost. Drive the car at low boost (5psi) until you can afford a standalone. SAFC/FCD/RTEK is all money you're throwing away along with your stock ECU if you plan to upgrade later.

fd3spr0

Could you expand on you're response please? You are saying the 6-port turbo is a better idea if you are going to get a standalone and a turbo upgrade? Can you build on that a little? Also, is there another extensive write up of the 6-port turbo conversion that you know of? Thanks in advance. I am just curious.

Aaron Cake

iTrader: (1)

If price is the concern, then don't bother trying to turbo the NA engine. With enough resourcefulness, you could beg, borrow, steal and scrounge up the parts to make a low buck turbo-NA and it might even be successful. But approaching any car project from a budget is the wrong way to go. Unless you look at it like "I have $2000, what can I do for that much?". It would be wrong to say "I have $2000, I need to get a turbo for that much". The 2nd one is a disaster waiting to happen. Stuff just costs money. $1000 for an engine is nothing. I have $2000 into my fuel system alone (not counting the standalone).

You can run some power on the NA transmission if you are not abusive to the car. On the stock turbo, the NA transmission should be fine for a while which will give you time to save up for a TII transmission and associated parts.

Well, if you are just bolting the TII external components onto an NA engine, you don't really need to do any welding unless you make your own exhaust parts. But if you are doing all that, why not just use the TII block and be done with it?

If you are doing a traditional turbo-NA setup in the sense that you are custom making the stuff to actually turbocharge the NA engine and not turn it into a "6 port TII", then there is a considerable amount of welding.

Sorry it didn't work out for you, but I had no problems that setup besides a few lines that popped off. The manifold-spacer approach is probably the easiest way to make a proper "turbo-NA" and not a "6 port TII". A better solution is of course a custom turbo manifold, but that requires a considerable amount of effort compared to just having an exhaust shop weld up a spacer.

"Proper" is relative. Going through all the trouble to bolt the TII intake manifolds, front cover (remember, no welding allowed so that means no adding a bung to the oil pan), TII downpipe, TII injectors, TII ECU and EFI stuff, TII transmission, TII everything is ridiculous when you could just bolt in a TII engine.

I had no problems with the stock NA ECU and an S-AFC at about 12 PSI for 15,000 KM when I did my original setup. Not that I would recommend that approach of course, but it is not accurate to say "it won't do ****".

PseudoKirby

yea I know it will cost money, I am not sure the intentions of my statement there, but I prefer the idea of slowly gathering up parts like I would in an NA to Turbo conversion, compared to TII swap where I would just be saving up money and buying everything at once, which doesnt seem as fun, but in the end if it is that much more of an option then yea might as well, I was just figuring that in the end the extra stuff you would have to buy for a Turboing of NA like fuel management and such would still have to be purchased with a TII swap in the end if I have plans for aftermarket turbo system and piping


I realize that down the line it will cost a good amount of money no matter what if I want to add power

KhanArtisT

iTrader: (2)

I have a lot of info on this subject from experiences and research so get ready for a massive post.

While I agree for the most part, I think your opinion may be based on your personal habits of going overkill with parts. AN fittings for vacuum/pressure lines, wastegate line, T bolt clamps on radiator hoses, T bolt clamps for -20psi intercooler pipes, long stainless lines feeding the remote turbo oil filter, etc. are not effective uses of money for a budget minded function>form build. If you actually use the right parts for your application and do your research without throwing money at the car you might not spend as much money as you think. I hope you don't take this personal, its only an observation.

I agree, but I didn't even have luck with the stock turbo and the NA trans. I'm not suggesting the OP buy a TII drivetrain now though, since a good NA trans might actually last a while especially if the car is driven lightly. Mine lasted not even 5000 miles, it blew when the car was sideways though I would personally drive the **** out of it until it blows The TII trans is a much stronger unit, even the synchros alone. Most NA trans have crappy synchros as is which is a major concern if you autocross or road race. Synchros on my TII trans feel like a brand new car (thanks to Japan2LA).

The main question that pops up here is, what is the alternative? Order a TII engine that has been sitting forever from one of the importers (for what your conversion will cost)? How long do you think that engine will last at 12psi (vs. 6-8psi on a 6PT)? Or order a used longblock for $1500+ shipped from the only reputable seller here? And after that you buy all the parts that you would've put on your 6 port block? That sounds ridiculous to me, if anything.

"Easy" is also relative. Its easy for you since you have a workplace, the proper tools and the experience to cut, fabricate and weld. For people that don't, all that work = money, and lots of it.

From my understanding the setup is trash, simple as that. The oil drain on the pan is a bad setup because it is below the oil level, all that piping on the same side of the engine going to the crappy TMIC to FMIC, or even if a real FMIC is used, you can either use 2" piping (proper size given the turbo and boost pressure) and throw it all away when you upgrade the turbo or use 2.5"+ piping and have crappy boost response. On top of this you have to cut the frame and hack your car or use a crappy frame mounted wastegate with a wire going to the flapper. And I personally had to use spacers in addition to the 2.5" exhaust spacer for clearance + all the extra gaskets. Also the setup is a complete nightmare to service, especially those nuts/bolts on the turbo manifold to spacer All the intercooler piping and the extra intake manifold. Then you get to throw it all away when you upgrade to a bigger turbo Or spend $500 to $1000 to have a custom manifold made.

As far as the SAFC, I don't think the power gained or the increased reliability (arguable because of the changes in timing) provided by the SAFC is worth the money and the hacked up harness if you'll upgrade to a standalone later. The AFRs are already rich enough to be safe, its the timing map that needs to be modified since the NA ECU can't read boost (and the TII ECU's maps are for 9.0:1).

As far as the spacer vs. 6 port TII, I'll let the OP decide:

<a href="http://viewmorepics.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=viewImage&friendID=39313093&a lbumID=2017873&imageID=47585901"><img src="http://hotlink.myspacecdn.com/images02/3/1f382f672de4481fb9727b43dc8b5856/m.jpg" alt="" /></a>
vs.
<a href="http://viewmorepics.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=viewImage&friendID=39313093&a lbumID=2017873&imageID=60556264"><img src="http://hotlink.myspacecdn.com/images02/4/f95b559a46414bf9bec23a9629dfadca/m.jpg" alt="" /></a>

PvillKnight7

iTrader: (16)

lolololol

If you have the ems, rebuild a 13BT and use the high compression rotors.

ifryrice

One of the bigger issues with the S-AFC is that by changing the AFM signal it also changes the timing. Typically people throw huge injectors at the thing and drop 15-20% off on the SAFC. The problem is the SAFC does this by telling the AFM that it's seeing less air, which most ECU's think implies less load/heat = timing advance. The S-AFC can often times make things worse when people only think of it as adjuting the fuel map.

KhanArtisT

iTrader: (2)

Right, hence the "arguable because of the [unwanted] changes in timing"

ifryrice

Oh, haha, my bad, didn't even see that snuck in there!

Rob XX 7

iTrader: (8)

if this is your budget forget it and save more money, otherwise you will end up with a car that will spend more time on blocks then on the road.

rx7racerca

iTrader: (1)

My point about the NA driveline is the transmissions aren't known for being terribly durable at even stock n/a power levels, certainly not much past stock TII power levels (200hp, more importantly significantly higher torque). The issue seems to mostly be when will it fail, not if. Even my moderately-more-powerful than stock S5 na seems to be wearing mine out, @124,000kms. And a dozen or so autocrosses a year and the odd lapping day are not hard use, and I have run synthetic and changed it annually (Redline) from when I got the car with 74k kms on it 11 years ago. N/A differentials and rear axles are also known for breakage at higher hp levels.

As Aaron pointed out, if you do an na-turbo conversion simply by bolting on all the bits from a turbo, it'll no longer be 6 port, and why not go the rest of the way and use a turbo keg (save you grinding out the n/a exhaust port insert if nothing else). If you want something a little beyond the norm, put the lighter S5 turbo or NA rotating assembly in a TII keg, which would yield moderately higher compression and efficiency and off-boost response than an S4 turbo, even if you don't boost for big power.

The Japan2LA intake is not a 6 port manifold, iirc, its modded to allow mounting a turbo, which otherwise requires spacers or other mods to the exhaust and turbo mounting - the 6 port manifold and accuators intrude in the space the stock turbo exhaust and turbo occupy on a TII