Troubleshooting your car from the ECU
08-21-04, 02:48 PM
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Troubleshooting your car from the ECU
It seems I've been repeating answers to this topic much too often lately, so here's another concise "how to" for you guys. Once you get the hang of this, you'll wonder why you ever did it another way, because this procedure saves a lot of time and effort troubleshooting your car...
The basics...
The ECU is mounted in the cabin, underneath the carpet in the area that your passenger would be resting his/her feet on. Once you pull the door sill plate (about 6 phillips screws) and the side plastic liner panel (pry up the push tabs), pull up the carpet, starting from the upper right corner. Then remove the two 10mm bolts and two 10mm nuts that secure the metal "cage" that covers the ECU. You'll see 3 electrical connectors, small, medium, and large, from left to right. Every circuit on the car that has to do with driveability, fuel scheduling, ignition, and emissions meets right here, which makes this point a big advantage for electrical troubleshooting, because instead of just checking a single component (reading out the CAS coils at the CAS, for instance), you can check the entire circuit (not only the CAS coils, but all wiring and connectors attaching the CAS to the ECU). And in most cases the plugs can remain on the ECU...
Equipment to make life easier...
Anyone who's actually used the ECU points for troubleshooting can tell you what a pain in the butt it is to attempt inserting a standard meter lead into the ECU connectors. I've found that a small curved piece of .041 safety wire works very well, small enough to be inserted to the point that electrical contact is made with the ECU pins, and large enough to stay in place without being held. A small paper clip, bent to a similar shape, should also work well. Whatever you choose to use, make sure it's short enough so that it won't contact the chassis ground during meter readings. You will also want a couple of jumper wires with small insulated "alligator" clips on each end, this allows you to connect your meter positive lead to your "pin insertion wire" ,and allows your negative lead to be clipped onto a ground point to free your hands. Any cheap "Radio Shack" type multi-meter will do, just make sure if reading resistances (say, through the CAS coils circuits), all power is off of the car. Also try not to "toggle" the meter selector past the resistance settings on the meter with your leads connected to the ECU, if any power is on. All voltages will be read with positive lead at the ECU pin, and negative lead at a ground. All resistances will be read with each meter lead at the opposite ends of the circuit being read. Note that if the ECU plug is connected, you can accidentally read resistances through the ECU, instead of reading back through the harness wiring, if that's what you are trying to do. For this reason, and to protect the ECU from your meter's power source, you should remove the ECU plug that contains the circuit you're trying to read (again, the CAS coils circuits are a prime example of this).
How to be a pro...
Once you get the hang of taking simple power (12 volt) measurements at the ECU, you're well on your way to tackling any "my car is broke" problems that pop up. If you have the FSM, go to section 4, Fuel and ECU (S4 cars, should be about the same title for the S5's). Contained in this section are charts and pinout normal voltages for every input/output at the ECU, along with a diagram showing the plugs' outline and pin locations. All voltages are given for either ignition switch on, or at idle. Note that if you're using the alligator clips, you can actually go for a ride with the meter connected for continuous readings. This is very helpful for circuits that vary their inputs wildly over the course of different throttle conditions (TPS, AFM, boost sensor, O2 sensor, and the 4 injectors). Take a couple of days, and write down voltages seen at all the different inputs you would like to record, this will come in handy for future troubleshooting if any problems pop up. Note also that if checking the injector voltages on an analog meter (with a needle), you will see the voltage dropping as the ECU switches the injector ground continuously faster as the car is accelerated. This is normal, and can actually give you a fair idea of the duty cycle running on that particular injector (for instance, you'll see maybe 14 volts on the injector pin with key on, then during engine runs the voltage may fall to 7 volts, indicating an approx. 50% duty cycle. The BAC valve and ignition timing signals also follow this "voltage drop" as their duty cycles increase.
There are a range of voltages you will be reading for different sensors, from 0 to1 volt for the O2 sensor and a couple of others, to the 12 or 14 volts you will read with key on & idle. Keep this in mind so that you can set your meters range to match the expected voltage for the sensor you are reading.
I think that's about it, for now, that should be enough to get 'ya started, anyway
The basics...
The ECU is mounted in the cabin, underneath the carpet in the area that your passenger would be resting his/her feet on. Once you pull the door sill plate (about 6 phillips screws) and the side plastic liner panel (pry up the push tabs), pull up the carpet, starting from the upper right corner. Then remove the two 10mm bolts and two 10mm nuts that secure the metal "cage" that covers the ECU. You'll see 3 electrical connectors, small, medium, and large, from left to right. Every circuit on the car that has to do with driveability, fuel scheduling, ignition, and emissions meets right here, which makes this point a big advantage for electrical troubleshooting, because instead of just checking a single component (reading out the CAS coils at the CAS, for instance), you can check the entire circuit (not only the CAS coils, but all wiring and connectors attaching the CAS to the ECU). And in most cases the plugs can remain on the ECU...
Equipment to make life easier...
Anyone who's actually used the ECU points for troubleshooting can tell you what a pain in the butt it is to attempt inserting a standard meter lead into the ECU connectors. I've found that a small curved piece of .041 safety wire works very well, small enough to be inserted to the point that electrical contact is made with the ECU pins, and large enough to stay in place without being held. A small paper clip, bent to a similar shape, should also work well. Whatever you choose to use, make sure it's short enough so that it won't contact the chassis ground during meter readings. You will also want a couple of jumper wires with small insulated "alligator" clips on each end, this allows you to connect your meter positive lead to your "pin insertion wire" ,and allows your negative lead to be clipped onto a ground point to free your hands. Any cheap "Radio Shack" type multi-meter will do, just make sure if reading resistances (say, through the CAS coils circuits), all power is off of the car. Also try not to "toggle" the meter selector past the resistance settings on the meter with your leads connected to the ECU, if any power is on. All voltages will be read with positive lead at the ECU pin, and negative lead at a ground. All resistances will be read with each meter lead at the opposite ends of the circuit being read. Note that if the ECU plug is connected, you can accidentally read resistances through the ECU, instead of reading back through the harness wiring, if that's what you are trying to do. For this reason, and to protect the ECU from your meter's power source, you should remove the ECU plug that contains the circuit you're trying to read (again, the CAS coils circuits are a prime example of this).
How to be a pro...
Once you get the hang of taking simple power (12 volt) measurements at the ECU, you're well on your way to tackling any "my car is broke" problems that pop up. If you have the FSM, go to section 4, Fuel and ECU (S4 cars, should be about the same title for the S5's). Contained in this section are charts and pinout normal voltages for every input/output at the ECU, along with a diagram showing the plugs' outline and pin locations. All voltages are given for either ignition switch on, or at idle. Note that if you're using the alligator clips, you can actually go for a ride with the meter connected for continuous readings. This is very helpful for circuits that vary their inputs wildly over the course of different throttle conditions (TPS, AFM, boost sensor, O2 sensor, and the 4 injectors). Take a couple of days, and write down voltages seen at all the different inputs you would like to record, this will come in handy for future troubleshooting if any problems pop up. Note also that if checking the injector voltages on an analog meter (with a needle), you will see the voltage dropping as the ECU switches the injector ground continuously faster as the car is accelerated. This is normal, and can actually give you a fair idea of the duty cycle running on that particular injector (for instance, you'll see maybe 14 volts on the injector pin with key on, then during engine runs the voltage may fall to 7 volts, indicating an approx. 50% duty cycle. The BAC valve and ignition timing signals also follow this "voltage drop" as their duty cycles increase.
There are a range of voltages you will be reading for different sensors, from 0 to1 volt for the O2 sensor and a couple of others, to the 12 or 14 volts you will read with key on & idle. Keep this in mind so that you can set your meters range to match the expected voltage for the sensor you are reading.
I think that's about it, for now, that should be enough to get 'ya started, anyway
08-22-04, 06:36 AM
#2
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Damn good info Wayne. 
For the ECU voltage readings refered to, the FSM page numbers are 4A-30 (S4 NA), 4B-31 (S4 Turbo), F1-79 (S5 NA) and F2-77 (S5 Turbo).
For the ECU voltage readings refered to, the FSM page numbers are 4A-30 (S4 NA), 4B-31 (S4 Turbo), F1-79 (S5 NA) and F2-77 (S5 Turbo).
08-22-04, 11:38 AM
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There you go, thanks NZ...I find myself wishing I had the S5 manuals every now & then to help some of you guys out, but it just isn't worth the time and effort (and paper) on my part since I'll never use them myself. Luckily we have guys such as yourself with all the info on hand that anybody could ever want. Thanks again
08-22-04, 03:41 PM
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For the s4 86-88 NA if you re too lazy to look at FSM:
http://www.geocities.com/huguesdc1/faqdiagnosing.html
hugues-
http://www.geocities.com/huguesdc1/faqdiagnosing.html
hugues-
08-22-04, 04:06 PM
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Ahh, that's it Hugues, nice write-up- I remember seeing that a while back when I actually had to start troubleshooting things that were breaking, and it probably was the source that inspired me to begin doing most of my work from the ECU, along with "tidbits" gleaned from Hailers & the guys. Kudos...
08-22-04, 05:55 PM
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I went gung-ho myself and piggy-back pretty much all ECU pins so that I can monitor whatever I want without having to back probe the plug and/or removing the carpet and the ECU cover, but that's kinda extreme.
I also got my inspiration from my mentor HAILERS ... too bad, he never looks at his friggin pm's
hugues-
I also got my inspiration from my mentor HAILERS ... too bad, he never looks at his friggin pm's
hugues-
08-22-04, 06:07 PM
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I've often thought about doing something like that- a couple of small volt meters (0-3v scale and 0-15v scale) mounted on my gauge panel I have below my CD player, then small jacks for each individual sensor that I would like to read, kind of like the old switchboards that the operators used to use. Suffice to say, I'm perfectly happy just pulling back the carpet and reading everything out about every 6 months or so as I'm driving to work, taking a couple of days to hit everything, and recording it all for past & future comparisons...And, of course, when something needs fixed
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09-02-04, 10:27 AM
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HAILERS
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On my series four turboII:
1A....ignored, I have no Self Diagnostic tester.
1B....Same as above
1C....I have .34V because the Air Bypass Solenoid is on the shelf in the garage.
1D....Same as 1A and 1B
1E....14.09V with the blower on and A/C off.
1F.....Approx 12v
1G......Its .10v in neutral
1H......Its .03v with the water temp at 180F
1I....Its 14.07 (I've never been able to come to terms with this..ever)
1J.....Its 6.41 v
1K .....Its 14.29
1L ....Its .03v
1M.....Its 1.35v
1N.....Its .62v
1O....Its .03v on a odometer with 146,000. The other car has somewhere over 100,000 and less than 12,000 and shows approx 13v. Awaiting 120,000 miles to go to .03v
1P....Its .62v
1Q.....Its .63v
1R.....Its 4.8v
1S....Its .56v because its on the shelf in the garage. (Port Air Solenoid)
1T...Its .63v
1U....Its 2.25v
1V...Its .73v
1W....Its 14.22v, if yours is way less check it out prior to doing emissions testing. It effects the relief solenoid, I think.
1X....Its .82V
2A....Its 5.02v
2B...Its 1.23v at idle with the vac hose on the sensor. Its 2.31 with the hose off the sensor and the car idling.
2C...Its .04v
2d......Its .54v mostly because the airpump/acv are inoperable, being in the garage.
2E......4.1 witht the key to ON and 2.51 at idle.
2F.....Its 2.62v
2G.....1.00v of course.
2H.....3.98v
2I.......54v with the car idling and water temp approx 180F
2J.......Its .89v at idle/fully warm engine. That is a normal reading. The reading in the FSM is not practical.
2K.....1.69v
2L......2.42v car idling and ambient temp approx 85degrees F
2M.....13.88v
2N......13.91v
2O.....13.98v
2P......1.74v
2Q.....10.29 w/car idling and no accessories on.
2R....Its .02v
3A....Its .02v (a ground)
3B....its .02V
3C....Its 13.82 at idle
3D....Its 1.16v
3E....Its 13.83 at idle
3F.....Its 14.05 at idle
3G.....Its.03v, a ground.
3H....14.06v at idle
3I....13.98v (touch of a voltage drop there ehhh? Yeah.
3J....14.23v
All the above was at idle with a fully warm, 180 degree engine...with the Port Air Solenoid/Switching Solenoid/airpump/ Air Supply Valve resting in the garage.
1A....ignored, I have no Self Diagnostic tester.
1B....Same as above
1C....I have .34V because the Air Bypass Solenoid is on the shelf in the garage.
1D....Same as 1A and 1B
1E....14.09V with the blower on and A/C off.
1F.....Approx 12v
1G......Its .10v in neutral
1H......Its .03v with the water temp at 180F
1I....Its 14.07 (I've never been able to come to terms with this..ever)
1J.....Its 6.41 v
1K .....Its 14.29
1L ....Its .03v
1M.....Its 1.35v
1N.....Its .62v
1O....Its .03v on a odometer with 146,000. The other car has somewhere over 100,000 and less than 12,000 and shows approx 13v. Awaiting 120,000 miles to go to .03v
1P....Its .62v
1Q.....Its .63v
1R.....Its 4.8v
1S....Its .56v because its on the shelf in the garage. (Port Air Solenoid)
1T...Its .63v
1U....Its 2.25v
1V...Its .73v
1W....Its 14.22v, if yours is way less check it out prior to doing emissions testing. It effects the relief solenoid, I think.
1X....Its .82V
2A....Its 5.02v
2B...Its 1.23v at idle with the vac hose on the sensor. Its 2.31 with the hose off the sensor and the car idling.
2C...Its .04v
2d......Its .54v mostly because the airpump/acv are inoperable, being in the garage.
2E......4.1 witht the key to ON and 2.51 at idle.
2F.....Its 2.62v
2G.....1.00v of course.
2H.....3.98v
2I.......54v with the car idling and water temp approx 180F
2J.......Its .89v at idle/fully warm engine. That is a normal reading. The reading in the FSM is not practical.
2K.....1.69v
2L......2.42v car idling and ambient temp approx 85degrees F
2M.....13.88v
2N......13.91v
2O.....13.98v
2P......1.74v
2Q.....10.29 w/car idling and no accessories on.
2R....Its .02v
3A....Its .02v (a ground)
3B....its .02V
3C....Its 13.82 at idle
3D....Its 1.16v
3E....Its 13.83 at idle
3F.....Its 14.05 at idle
3G.....Its.03v, a ground.
3H....14.06v at idle
3I....13.98v (touch of a voltage drop there ehhh? Yeah.
3J....14.23v
All the above was at idle with a fully warm, 180 degree engine...with the Port Air Solenoid/Switching Solenoid/airpump/ Air Supply Valve resting in the garage.
Last edited by HAILERS; 09-02-04 at 10:36 AM.
09-02-04, 10:55 AM
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Its easier to check the pinouts by unbolting the ECU from its mount, so you can manipulate it to access the pins. Do the top rows first...then flip the ECU over so the bottom pins are on the top for easy access. The ECU does not have to be bolted to the chassis. It does not ground thru its body to the chassis in any manner.
09-02-04, 11:08 AM
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Thanks Hailers...First a little disclaimer- I'm hoping my NA ECU pins match yours on these items:
1L- clutch switch, should be about 12v with the clutch depressed. I realize 0v is a normal reading with the car at idle, but since the circuit IS for the clutch switch, why don't we give 'em the numbers when the switch is actually "ops checked", i.e. clutch pedal depressed...
1W- yes, the relief valve "kicks in", exhausting all air pump air, so that no air is fed to the cats whatsoever, I guess Mazda figured that would help cool the hazard sensor off enough to kill it...
2J- IF this is your AFM air temp sensor, I disagree with your assumption that the book is wrong. I get 3.6v at 80*F ambient, and 3.2v at 75*F ambient, right in line with Japanese expectations...
That 5th switch confused me for a while too, but I've come to grips with it after reducing my caffeine intake
1L- clutch switch, should be about 12v with the clutch depressed. I realize 0v is a normal reading with the car at idle, but since the circuit IS for the clutch switch, why don't we give 'em the numbers when the switch is actually "ops checked", i.e. clutch pedal depressed...
1W- yes, the relief valve "kicks in", exhausting all air pump air, so that no air is fed to the cats whatsoever, I guess Mazda figured that would help cool the hazard sensor off enough to kill it...
2J- IF this is your AFM air temp sensor, I disagree with your assumption that the book is wrong. I get 3.6v at 80*F ambient, and 3.2v at 75*F ambient, right in line with Japanese expectations...
That 5th switch confused me for a while too, but I've come to grips with it after reducing my caffeine intake
09-02-04, 12:24 PM
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WEllllllll....I'll think about 2J a bit. The car was idling for an hour approx and was heatsoaking. I just went for a thirty minute drive on the freeway at a constant sixtyfive and the highest it would go was 1.48v
In the morning I'll look at it stone cold and compare it with the other turbo car and the 86na. Maybe my car is shot and i need to dump it before it decays anymore. There are about four or five differences in the pinouts for n/a vs turbo cars....series four cars that is.
In the morning I'll look at it stone cold and compare it with the other turbo car and the 86na. Maybe my car is shot and i need to dump it before it decays anymore. There are about four or five differences in the pinouts for n/a vs turbo cars....series four cars that is.
09-02-04, 12:41 PM
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Hence my "if" disclaimer...That little sucker appears to be a positive coefficient thermister, temp goes up, voltage goes up; so yours is following the trend, it appears. If it wasn't for the book, I'd begin to wonder if mine was the wacky one. I did notice during the rebuild that the sensor element looks really puny, and I figured any solvents used to clean the TB/ dynamic chamber might actually hurt the little guy, so I took it easy in that area. Please post the results after comparisons with the other cars, then we can settle it once & for all. I hate ambiguity, lol...
09-02-04, 02:00 PM
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Alright, here are all the ECU voltage troubleshooting pages from each fsm, when this thread is archived, please clean up all the posts, and link these as images, or just leave them as text, whatever.
S4 N/A:
http://sonicrat.org/~rat/rx7/s4-na-ecu1.jpg
http://sonicrat.org/~rat/rx7/s4-na-ecu2.jpg
http://sonicrat.org/~rat/rx7/s4-na-ecu3.jpg
S4 TII:
http://sonicrat.org/~rat/rx7/s4-tii-ecu1.jpg
http://sonicrat.org/~rat/rx7/s4-tii-ecu2.jpg
http://sonicrat.org/~rat/rx7/s4-tii-ecu3.jpg
S5 N/A:
http://sonicrat.org/~rat/rx7/s5-na-ecu1.jpg
http://sonicrat.org/~rat/rx7/s5-na-ecu2.jpg
http://sonicrat.org/~rat/rx7/s5-na-ecu3.jpg
S5 TII:
http://sonicrat.org/~rat/rx7/s5-tii-ecu1.jpg
http://sonicrat.org/~rat/rx7/s5-tii-ecu2.jpg
http://sonicrat.org/~rat/rx7/s5-tii-ecu3.jpg
S4 N/A:
http://sonicrat.org/~rat/rx7/s4-na-ecu1.jpg
http://sonicrat.org/~rat/rx7/s4-na-ecu2.jpg
http://sonicrat.org/~rat/rx7/s4-na-ecu3.jpg
S4 TII:
http://sonicrat.org/~rat/rx7/s4-tii-ecu1.jpg
http://sonicrat.org/~rat/rx7/s4-tii-ecu2.jpg
http://sonicrat.org/~rat/rx7/s4-tii-ecu3.jpg
S5 N/A:
http://sonicrat.org/~rat/rx7/s5-na-ecu1.jpg
http://sonicrat.org/~rat/rx7/s5-na-ecu2.jpg
http://sonicrat.org/~rat/rx7/s5-na-ecu3.jpg
S5 TII:
http://sonicrat.org/~rat/rx7/s5-tii-ecu1.jpg
http://sonicrat.org/~rat/rx7/s5-tii-ecu2.jpg
http://sonicrat.org/~rat/rx7/s5-tii-ecu3.jpg
09-02-04, 02:18 PM
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Well, I think that just about covers everything, lol...
I also have the voltage numbers from the various sensors at a 55mph cruise, a 75 mph cruise, WOT conditions, and at various ambient temps for the temp-related guys, should anyone need them...
Now, I can't believe no one's jumped my butt yet about the "dynamic chamber" statement up above when I should have been talking about the AFM temp sensor. You guys gotta watch me a little better than that- I'm getting old and starting to fritz out like Hailers
I also have the voltage numbers from the various sensors at a 55mph cruise, a 75 mph cruise, WOT conditions, and at various ambient temps for the temp-related guys, should anyone need them...
Now, I can't believe no one's jumped my butt yet about the "dynamic chamber" statement up above when I should have been talking about the AFM temp sensor. You guys gotta watch me a little better than that- I'm getting old and starting to fritz out like Hailers
09-03-04, 10:15 AM
#23
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It was 68 degrees this morning. The resistance on pin J on one car was 2.44K and the other car it was 2.58K. Reconnected the plugs and turn only the key to ON. The first car read 2.38v and the other read 2.48v.
The fsm says the resistance on the temp sensor should be 2k to 3K at 68 degrees. So I'm in the ballpark. If I drive the car then let it sit for twenty minutes the voltage on pin J falls below 1v. So what I was seeing yesterday as I copied down the readings of each pin while the car was idling was a heatsoaked afm/sensor.
I'd guess a turbo car will heat soak that afm a bit more than a na. I didn't mess with the na. This is too time consuming. Off to do something useful. Sleep.
So as I said in the first post........don't look for pin J to match someone elses reading because of to many variables. Come this winter and spring I expect to see higher v readings and the reverse in the summer. duh. And as a side note, the voltages on both cars varied with the key to just ON. After about thirty seconds one car read12.3 and the other 11.93 on pin 3J. Bac and other things sucking the voltage down type thing.
The fsm says the resistance on the temp sensor should be 2k to 3K at 68 degrees. So I'm in the ballpark. If I drive the car then let it sit for twenty minutes the voltage on pin J falls below 1v. So what I was seeing yesterday as I copied down the readings of each pin while the car was idling was a heatsoaked afm/sensor.
I'd guess a turbo car will heat soak that afm a bit more than a na. I didn't mess with the na. This is too time consuming. Off to do something useful. Sleep.
So as I said in the first post........don't look for pin J to match someone elses reading because of to many variables. Come this winter and spring I expect to see higher v readings and the reverse in the summer. duh. And as a side note, the voltages on both cars varied with the key to just ON. After about thirty seconds one car read12.3 and the other 11.93 on pin 3J. Bac and other things sucking the voltage down type thing.
09-03-04, 11:07 AM
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At 68* ambient, 2.38 & 2.48 (which are both 2.4 as far as the ECU is concerned- with an 8-bit system, there's no way in hell any chip in the ECU has anything better than a .1v input/output resolution) are right on the money per the FSM...Due to the fact the book gives you a 1 volt leeway on an input that has no more than a 4v range, I'd say Mazda wasn't too concerned about an exact temp interpretation (kind of like the S5 temp gauges, lol)...I just read a 2.3v at 75*F, so we're good. I'm going to keep an eye on mine for a drive, because I always thought this bugger was a "temp up, voltage up" kind of guy, but it looks the opposite with our numbers (or you could say it's a "temp up, resistance up")...
In any case, thanks Hailers, another rx-7 mystery solved...You can sleep now
In any case, thanks Hailers, another rx-7 mystery solved...You can sleep now
