Amur_

So I put waaaaaaaaay too much ATF into the top of this engine we're working on. And while we've gotten most of it out, we're pretty sure that there's still some up in the intake manifolds. Now, we aren't looking forward to ripping them apart after we just put them together.

Comments? Or suggestions on alternative ways of getting the ATF out of there? It keeps fouling the plugs each time we go for start-up, so 'burn it off' won't be such a great suggestion.

Manolis_D

iTrader: (2)

crank the motor over a few times, then start 'er up and enjoy the smokescreen

Seriously though, don't worry about it, just crank it over and start it!

hypntyz7

Dude, ther eis not really such a thing as too much atf. You cannot flood a rotary with atf, and you cannot hydrlock a rotary with anything. All that will happen is you keep pouring it in is that it will get pushed right back out the exhaust port, which is near the bottom of the engine. TH most it will hold(before pushing out the rest) is about 1 cup per chamber. Just crank it over a few times and all the excess will get thrown out the exhaust, wher eit will smoke its way out upon startup.

No way in hell Id worry about or try to get atf out of the engine. This situation will handle itself

tesla042

You could pull the plugs, and crank it a few times.. It'll blow itself out the plug holes.

-Tesla

Ryde _Or_Die

Ya burn it out. I don't see the comparison to tearing the engine apart to changing plugs.

Henrik

Think about it, you've got a chamber full of ATF before the compression cycle. To get to the exhaust, you gotta go through compression and fluid does not compress so where's it going to go? Its either going to hydrolock the engine or get pushed past the one or more seals, neither of which will be good for the engine.

Pull the plugs before cranking to give the excess somewhere to go.

Henrik
87TII

hypntyz7

No, bullshit. You CANNOT hydrolock a rotary. True you cannot compress fluid. However, our engines have **SPRING LOADED** seals, thus if pressure builds excessively, the seals will just get pushed in momentarily(like they do 4000 times per minute in a running engine)while fluid escapes by.

Trust me on this...just crank it on over and the **** will shoot out the exhaust ports. Anyone who has built an engine and is familiar with the inner workings will verify this to be truth.

Also, due to the multiple seals and cracks between each, fluid will not sit on top of a rotor, it will always drain down through the cracks to the bottom of the chamber, then get swooshed right out the exhaust.

Suparslinc

flip the car over

or, just do the job right and take the manifold off again. I've done it its really not that big of a deal. Of course with time most of the ATF will drain down into the block and you can crank it out of the exhaust.

I always had problems getting my series V to start after the ATF; leading me to believe the 12A is a much more reliable design. my '84 fires right up

edit: oh guy is right you won't hydrolock a rotary its physically impossible esp. since you remove the plugs when cranking

Amur_

There's a little more to the story. I have zero time to post it.

I'll post Thursday night.

Just got in from seeing Spirited Away, btw. Awesome. And did 160-170 km/h all the way home, turning a 75 minute drive into a 45 min drive. Now I gotta get up for work in 3.5 hours.

Thursday night...

Henrik

LOL - do the math. The force from the compression is tangential to the seal; it doesnt push on the spring, it pushes on the side of the seal. If it did then the springs would allow bypass of combustion as well and it wouldn't be much of an engine. You're probably correct about the fluid draining down but if your LIM is full (as some people have done) it isn't all drained and your still trying to compress fluid - hydrolock or squish through one or more seals.

BTW 4000 times/min (a seal passing the same spot on the housing) is 12k rpm on the tach, not many of us running there, and piston rings are springs too.

Edit: oh and removing the plugs is only a few minutes - certainly good insurance either way.

Henrik
87TII

Suparslinc

Henrik you registered the same time as I did but you have about 1/6th the posts. You should post more.

If the car won't turn, I guarantee the puny starter motor doesn't exert enough "tangential" force to seriously hydrolock the engine. If the starter clicks, jack up the car, grab a crowbar, remove the plug from the tranny, and turn the thing over by hand. Worked for me on my fickle mV.

hypntyz7

I was actually thinking of the seals as a group of 3, working at 4000rpm.

I will kiss somebody's *** if they hydrolock a rotary and prove it. IT cannot be done, I dont care how much liquid you pour into it, the design prevents it.

I have atf'd many an engine(into the 100's now) and back in teh day I used to use way too much. I have rebuild many as well now, and I see how the design prevents hydrolock. Let me ask you this, mr. mathemetician...how many engines have you worked on, atf'd, or rebuilt?

Amur_

We did hydrolock the engine. Briefly. My 7 mechanic said as much when he dropped by to pitch in one night. So much atf in there the rotors wouldn't turn. At least, the starter couldn't turn them.

Scooz my not posting last night - dog tired.

Here's where we are now...

The engine no longer spits ATF out of the spark plug holes. Not much, anyway. We now get black stuff and gasoline (the engine had a flooding prob b4 - hypntyz, we've added your kill switch ) We HOPE that the black stuff is the engine spitting out dissolved carbon. We don't know and we don't know how to ID the black stuff at all.

Every time we go for start-up, the plugs get soaked. But lately we've been closer to her catching and running.

I put so much ATF in b4 that I found a bunch of it in the air cleaner! Monday night I detached the air from the TB and saw a trail of ATF down the duct. I pulled the airbox and could hear ATF sloshing around inside! There must have been 2 litres in it. It's been all cleaned up, but she will still won't start.

It seems that the only place left to go after is the LIM...

Infini has picked up new plugs and we'll probably be using them Saturday. Maybe they will make the difference (the used plugs we've been using so far are pretty much trashed.)

Henrik

I've worked on many engines over the years, never rebuilt one 'cause I've never had to, probably wont do one either as my time would be better spent elsewhere (a Mazda keg is only ~$2kCDN last time I checked) and never atf'd one either, again cause I've never had to. My TII has 148k miles on the original engine/turbo, reads 95/100psi on the rear/front rotor and boosts 7psi without difficulty - regular maint and a redline or two a day seem to keep my baby happy.

Quantity doesn't equal quality

Amur_ seems to have some evidence - Pucker up...

Henrik
87TII

Suparslinc: One more post now I agree that the starter will likely "give" first and Amur_ obviously has confirmed this, all I'm saying is why take the risk, just pull the plugs and then its not an issue at all. He had to do that anyways...

Amur_: Hope it works out for you.

Amur_

We were able to turn the hydrolocked motor (it happened twice) by first pushing backwards with her in 5th (there was a kind of quiet *crack* or *ting* from the engine that made both of us groan) and then later with a racheting breaker bar (no ting.)

The whooshes of the rotors are normal and we are hoping that the ting wasn't an apex seal being burgered. :sweat:

Any thoughts on what the black stuff is that the engine is blowing out? We're hitting it againt this afternoon.

skunks

if the sparkplugs get coated with atf fluid, with they spark? Personnaly i think i put too much atf fluid in my engine, the plugs keep comming out soaked. I keep using a tooth brush to clean them and then a propane torch to dry the tips off. oh well, i gotta keep trying i guess.

BTW: is it true that if your fuel pump relay is pulled, you cant get any spark?

Rs4Racer

black smoke means unburnt fuel.

Amur_

The plugs won't spark worth a crap if they're soaked. Instead of a toothbrush, use carb cleaner to blast the ATf out of the plugs (and thoroughly clean them at the same time) and then the torch to dry them. Right now, you're getting some of the ATF and baking on the rest...

If the 'black smoke' post is for me, we aren't getting black smoke. We're getting black... uh... goo. I'll gather some and give it a closer look tomorrow.

GatorRX

Probably the motor wasn't 'hydrolocked', the ATF most likely dislodged some carbon that got the motor stuck. That especially sounds like the case to me, because running the motor backwards cleared it. The black crap is probably carbon dissolved in the ATF.

Pull the 'EGI' fuse on the block under the hood when you are cranking it over to get the ATF out, there's no point turning it over and pumping fuel into it at the same time.

And if your battery isn't REALLY good, like almost new, foget the whole thing. When you are finally ready to start it, just put the throttle to the floor and keep cranking until it starts.

Amur_

We've been doing all that. And boosting the battery during start-up to keep things full-on.

Aaron Cake

iTrader: (1)

BTW, never put ATF into your engine.

akageals

I'll probably get killed for this but.......I used motor oil instead of ATF when I had my injectors cleaned and all the manifolds off replacing gaskets and such. I wanted to make sure everything was well lubed so I shot some oil in the spark plug holes. I had the EXACT SAME problem with the oil coating the plugs. I ended up shooting some Brake cleaner into the spark plug holes and then blowing it out with a wet dry vac. . Car started up on first try once the plugs were reinserted. I'm sure this is not the rec. procedure but it worked.

Todd

Amur_

Blowing it out? Diid you spray the brake cleaner in, turn the engine, then blow it out? Or just blew it out without turning the engine? If we decide to try this, we wanna do it right (or at least more right than not.)

We've spent the early afternoon on my 7, next is hers after we eat.

Amur_

Awright, the new plugs got it running. For a few seconds. The longest period was about 7 seconds and then she died.

I dunno... I can't help but wonder if we didn't put the injectors in wrong or if something somewhere to do with fuel delivery is fucked - the smoke we got each time the engine started and ran STANK of unburnt gas. Couldn't smell ATF at all.

After each run, and attempted run, we pulled the plugs, tapped them out, put a lighter to them and put them back in. Gas and black goo was on and came out of them. T1 and T2 and L2, IIRC (gotta ask Infini.) One time when I tapped out the plugs, I got the usual fuel and goo, but also about 4 or 5 little black bits. Carbon, I guess.

And here's the big thing, which I believe means we have to yank the LIM (and maybe disassemble the UIM, too.) Just before we wrapped up, I disconnected the air hose that comes off the air duct and goes to the top of the dynamic chamber (the air hose plugs into a 90 underneath the duct - I disconnected the hose at the 90.) ATF dribbled out of both the 90 and the air hose.
****.
We pulled the top off the air box and found ATF (a little bit, maybe 2 or 3 tablespoons) pooled down in the passageway to the AFM.
Oh, man!

So, is the ATF being blown back through the air intake sys? That sounds nuts to me.

We've decided that the next step is to pull both intake manifolds and get rid of the ATF that we assume must be in there. We won't be able to start that until Monday night...

akageals

Damn....how much did you put in?