For those that think I don't make mistakes & those that know better Foaming the Frame
 

Okay I finally broke down and spent the money on structual foam to stiffen my 88 vert's frame.

For those not familier I used ITW Foamseal's AUTOSEAL. (http://www.itwfoamseal.com/auto_aftermarket.htm).

ITW Foamseal's AUTOSEAL is a two component foam kit that has been specially formulated for automotive aftermarket applications such as chassis stiffness improvement, sound damping, and reduction of vibration and infiltration of air, water and dust.

But my main concern was stiffening the FC3C body further than Mazda did; while not adding significant weight.

So, Saturday afternoon I am playing around with the stuff and filling the drivers running boards, and unibody cavities. Takes about two kits for each side of a vert, filling the metal under the running boards and the entire unibody framing.

Now normally you fill cover all the holes after squirting the stuff in and let it go to town. Just like that cheapo crap at home depot if fills to about 5 -10 times its size.

Well, after letting the car sit all Saturday afternoon, and night on a perfectly level surface, I check it out. Sure enough it has filled perfectly under the tape and plugs, and is ozzing slightly exactly how it should, but now fairly solid everywhere I can check it.

So I figure the stuff has solidified and back the car out into my driveway, so I can take advantage of the sun and clean the carpets (with 3M carpet and Upholstry cleaner of course)... clean the carpets since the plastic running boards off, from when I injected the stuff into the panels.

I let it sit all day in the sun drying and thinking nothing of it.

So this morning I go to open the drivers door. It unlocks but sounds a little weird (I have added a keyless security system on to the stock system). I go to open the door and it will not open... it doesn't move. Latch pulls up, but door does not open.

"Great, the damm latch is broken at the actual mechanical latch in the door jam", I think cursing. I know this is a common thing on older Japanese cars, but I still am bummed. I could have spent the money for parts replacing the damm latch instead of foaming the panels.

I go inside from the passengers side, and the interior latch is not opening it either... How to take the interior door panel off without opening the door starts coming to mind... "well, I can get to all but that one screw from inside, I guess I can bust the screw"...

Then something dawns on me... maybe that foam wasn't done expanding 24 hours afterwards...so I climb back out, and try the drivers door from outside again... this time I can just open it a hair... enough to get my fingers in around where the top of the door meets the body of the vert.

I start pulling with one hand while holding the handle up with the other.. I am hearing something ripping. Now mind you I am pulling with all my force... and I am a big guy... 6'2" 225 lbs, can easy lift a bare block 13B out of my truck, and carry it to the garage.

Finally the door rips open... I look down...

There between the sandwhich of sheet metal that makes up the FC3C framing at the running boards, a small (tiny really) 1/8 bead of the foam has expanded its way up through the sandwhich, and literally expoxied the door to the frame.

I should have probably taped even the sandwich of the body framing up.

Looking at the bottom of the door there is foam stuck all over the lower gasket and door jam...

Well at least I know that stuff works.

I used to work with that stuff back in the 80s. It usually is dry and flakes off if you rub. BUT sometimes if the resin was'nt mixed properly it would be gummy and wouldn't flake at all!!! Did yours flake or is it gummy???? Did it stick to the paint??? I remember we used to use methyl ethyl Ketone (spelling is bad) to disolve the stuff but it is now illegal in most states. You could try Isopropal Alcohol. Fingernail polish will disolve it but will also get your paint. MEK will also work on your paint so be careful if you find some. Also try good ole 89 octane

Ouch. Sounds like it certainly works though.

Different foam stuff... MEK doesn't touch this stuff (I have about 3 gallons left from a 5 gallon of MEK I bought back inthe 80's). I dropped a hunk of this structual foam into a cup of MEK and it just floated.

It didn't get either flaky or gummy once dry, but rather a very very hard light weight plastic.

Acetone seems to work just fine though... just have to be careful with the paint and plastic, not to run too much.

yeah this is the two part urethane foam it sounds like. Isnt it about the same.....two part and when you mix it it turns into this mocha color?

but since we are on the subject how do you like the sound deadener and stiffness of the frame and whatnot?

pics? :D

pics please? I cannot picture what you did.....sorry

Two part urethane foam will not dissolve under most solvents and chemicals.
Even MEK (methyl ethyl ketone [you got the spelling right :) ]) nor acetone will dissolve it.
If you have unmixed sections, it might come off with some of the stronger cleaners (like acetone).

Watch out with the particles of the set foam when you're trying to cut or shave pieces off.
If this stuff gets into your skin, it's a major irritant!


-Ted

yeah I have the stuff on the carpet in my car....needless to say it isnt going anywhere until i get new carpet.

Ted,

What do you think of this chassis stiffening foam method? Is it worth it?

Thanks.

MEK isn't illegal...you can pick it up at Home Depot.

next time something happens with that foam just put some gas on it.it will loosen right up.i use that foam alot.lol its a good filler when doing bondo.

Icemark...where did you go, I wanna know how well this stuff works? I've thought about it before but I wasn't really sure if I wanted to do it yet, how do you feel about it? Got any pics of the car after it's done (any video so we can see the body move?). I'm very curious now :).

Kiyo

Like I had stated before when someone on this forum did this. My dad had a Ferrari 355 F1 and this was done to the vert to stiffen up the chassis and it handled like no other car I ever rode it. I never got a chance to drive it because I was in the service while he owed it plus he would never have let me drive it because I would have seen what it could do. But riding in the passanger seat and hitting corners at 80 it felt like zero body roll.

I haven't had a chance to drive the car yet, as yesterday I couldn;t get the door open, so I just took my truck.

I'll try it later today.

And Ted's right... this stuff does not disolve in acetone either once it is dry and hard.:(

Again here is the link for what I used:
http://www.itwfoamseal.com/auto_aftermarket.htm

And yes MEK is illegal in most states. Only a very few allow it still to be sold.

You can get it out of your skin fairly easily with an old wool sweater. That trick also works like a champ when you're working with fiberglass.

where is it that you are injecting the foam? (pic with arrows maybe :) )

Yeah I didn't have too much of a problem with my skin.. as whenever I am working in the shop, I wear latex gloves, and even more so when painting or using adhesives (whihc this foam really is).

Yeah let me see if I get some tomarrow... I have been so busy.

I was working on this stuff one night, shaving a bunch of stuff that fell on the ground.
I just sat in it with no protective gear.
I stuck to my pants.
I was too tired to remember to "dust" it all off.
I got into the car, and it got all over the seat.
I got into bed, and it got all over the bed.
It was NOT fun that morning! :(


-Ted

Ah, yeah... that would do it... it would be next to impossible to get all the shavings out of a cloth seat...

http://www.teamfc3s.org/forum/attach...&postid=347660

The blue arrows are where I shot foam in and taped over it, and the green arrow is were is came up and sealed the door shut until I busted it free.

Replace the "Foam" with the black tar inside the doors - and you have my story as well!:rolleyes:


I'll be interested to hear how this effects the car's feel.

Is there any fear that this stuff would seal up any of the car's drainage paths for water? I realize most of them are "purpose built" like he ones in the rear hatch and for the sunroof - but if you got a bit more "aggressive" with the placement of the foam, is there a danger of trapping water when it rains?

Wow, interesting!

I would love to try that as well. Question: Wouldn't the foam bust open the fill holes with the tape over it?

Love to know how your car handles after the foam Icemark!

Mark - Is that the only place on the car that you can put the foam... are there places along the width of the car that can be filled too?

Also, how does it feel, do you notice a difference? And does the foam affect the dable channels along the side rails?

You know guys I have been so busy that I have not driven it since I did it. The vert is out of gas, so I have been taking my truck or SC400 when I need to go somewhere. I'll take it out and really ring it out in the mountains and hills this weekend.

Actually triple channels on those points on a vert.

But yes I also ran it in the "frame" part of the unibody that you can see under the car.

On the vert, you don't really have side to side flex, as the structure is actually stronger than the coupe as far as the side to side stuff.

Its the front to back that you see some flex when the roof is down/unlocked (but when comparied to even a brand new Solara 'vert or Z convertible the FC3C is still light years better).

I might have missed it but, how much did you buy? $180 or so isn't bad if noticable stiffness is added...

"triple", "dable", can you guys give a little more explanation?

There are two layers of metal on that rail area on the coupes (or double layers, sometimes misspelled as dable)

On the verts there are three layers of metal on those rails.

On the coupe, if you cut it at a right angle, you would see what looks something like two metal panels like this () spot welded together.

On the verts you would see ()) if you cut the running board rails at a right angle.

The foam went between the two () and in my case between all three.

I bought 4 cans... it was $150 with shipping.

still curious about the water retention... do you forsee having any problems with rust formation in the rocker panels?
thanks
~suds

might try this soon. I am currently gutting the enterior of my vert so I can spray the inside with rhino bed liner. The stuff is water proof and as all s4 verts do they leak so I am starting to get a little floor board orange. The car will go through a entire restoration of the body and paint as well. Also I am putting it in a 24hr storage facility to keep it out of the elements. For $120 bucks and I feel this is a great mod.

The foam it's self wont retain water - but my concern was the blocking of drains, therefor trapping water and promoting rust.

I guess all you have to do is be careful when using the stuff!

If you're worried about rust and water problems, you have bigger problems to worry about.
If done right, the particular areas should NOT have any water forming or puddling in them.
Particulars at the "outrigger" runners under the door sill covers, cross brace behind the seats, and B-pillar panels.
Now, the B-pillars do house the sunroof drain hoses, but I think they can be easily relocated.


-Ted

fill the front sub-frame -rear sub frame - front frame rails - rear frame rails all kinds of places.. i have basically ripped everyting off the bottom of the car , all of suspension every thing.... cleaned and painted then filled everything i could... i think i added about 10 pounds but i can't wait to feel it... yes it's itw foamseal, its called autoseal.... expensive... i cheated though i've also used 2lb 2 part indst. expansion foam. not as expensive and works well....

they sell MEK in florida, and we dont have emmisions laws. crap, we just love the environment here.

yeah, even that spray foam stumm from loes is impossible to clean. pitty on you if it gets on your skin, since it wont come off untill your skin naturally sheds a week later.

i called itw today to get more... there is a problem with the company and they are having problems. looks like they lost my check from 3 weeks ago. i talked to a guy with the company and he says they don't make it just repackage it with there name.. i will be getting some more but , I was referred to anothere seller...

No chance to drive it yet? Greg C.

Still no test drive??

Yeah actually I have been driving it. I had a fuel line leaking, so I hadn't been driving it, but fixed it a week or two back now. And have driven a couple hundred miles in it.

The difference really is noticeable. Although the FC3C was always pretty stiff and for the most part creak free, with the foam in the rails it has made a noticeable difference, and put it almost exactly the same as a regular coupe even when the top is down.

The difference was much more noticable than adding a strut bar.

As a side benni, the interior is also quieter with the top up. This means (figuring my 40 year old average hearing) that there was at least a 3db drop in overall sound levels (again) with the top up. Of course I didn't notice any sound change with the top down.

I highly recommend the foaming... just put a layer of duct tape over any hole or body seam after injecting the foam in.

Now we'll see if I can get buy some tires and get my new 15lb 17" wheels on the 'vert before Sevenstock next month.

Mark, You are truly fucking hillarious. hope you didn't have to break too much apart to get your fc 100% unfomified.

Matt

Cool, thanks for the info

Sorry to dig this one out of the grave, but I just wanted to ask icemark if he was done anything else to stiffen up his vert or make it quieter. Thanks,.

Does anybody know anything new about where to get this since the company split?

I didnt even try to click this link...they dont sell it anymore?

Not directly related but I just wanted to note that the reason MEK is illegal to sell in alot of places now is because it can be used to create MEKP (methyl Ethyl keton PEroxide or sumtin) which is a high explosive(sort of). Its what was used in the UK train bombings recently.

I have not tried ordering this stuff, but this may be the updated link:

http://www.foamseal.com/auto_after_ordering.htm

EvilWankel - Atleast we know you use the search button.