RETed

I think the 2" drop is too much headaches for it's worth.
Nothing you can do can dial out the excessive negative camber that a 2" drop is going to induce in the rear.


I prefer Koni yellows.
In terms of coilover spring kits, you got a choice, but I prefer K2RD, if they are still making them.
This combo can ride very nice on the street due to the superior damping rates of the Koni yellows when dialed in right.
Even with really high spring rates (we're running 550 F / 500 R), the ride isn't that bad, and bumps and holes are not a problem.

I don't really care for a lot of the pre-packaged coilover kits that are coming out from Japan.
You end up paying extra for the name, and they don't offer anything better than what the K2RD Suspension "B" package (Koni yellow dampers) did except for the higher price.
If you can get these coilover kits for a good price though, go for it.


-Ted

ALLaROUND

Cool, thanks for the info REted.
I know that the Illuminas have a 5way adjustable dampening, what about the yellows? 3way spring adj. plus????

RETed

Tokicos come with 5-way adjustable damping.

Koni yellows come with a continuously variable damping rate that gives you 2 full turns.
There are no detent clicks, like the Tokicos.
The damping rate min and max are significantly wider - well, the range is on the stiffer side - than the Tokicos or any other FC3S aftermarket shock available.
Koni yellows can be rebuild by a number of Koni builder shops.
The Koni yellows can be converted to double-adjustable (rebound and compression independent adjustable) if you want by these same shops.


-Ted

ALLaROUND

K2RDs site is down... Is this similar to the pakage "B" you are refering to, minus the KYBs?

http://www.rx-7parts.com/product_inf...bc49171c267217

Since their site is down, how much is package "B"? Is this setup also good for beginner autoX and drift? Thanks again, your the man... Love them Avitars

icesoft

I suppose I should chime in with my experience with coilivers... I've got TEIN Flex series on my other car ('95 240SX) and I like them much better than a strut/spring combo. I paid about 1700 for them with the EDFC and they're worth every penny.

Pros: Damn near "0" body roll especially when coupled with a larger anti-roll bar.
With EDFC, damping is adjustable from within the car.
Adjustable lower mount so you can raise/lower the car without changing spring pre-load.
Bling Factor
Easier to rotate tires, I can lift the front corner of my car and lift 3 wheels off the ground at once.
Damper/Spring combo are made to work with each other, damper is guaranteed to be able to control the stiff springs that come with it.
Dampers are rebuildable, Last I checked, Tein will rebuild them for about $100 each.
16 way adjustable dampers.
Come with camber plates/pillow ball upper mounts.
Super fun on twisty back roads whilst taunting Mustang and Camaro drivers.

Cons: Kinda stiff till you get used to it.
With the car lowered I have trouble rolling the jack under it.
Be careful on un-even surfaces without a LSD, you can get the car stuck up on the corners (one front, one rear wheel) and not be able to move (don't ask how I know)
Kinda looks like you just learning to drive a stick when you're going over bumps in low gears.

Probably some others, but can't think of them right now.

RETed

Yep, that's it...minus the KYB AGX's.


I think it was $1,235.
It was definitely under $1,300.

I dunno if I'd recommend them for beginners.
Detends on adjustments are easier for beginners.
The continuously variable adjustments sometimes makes it confusing.


-Ted

RETed

Although springs do affect body roll, stabilizer bars are more responsibly for body roll. You really do not choose spring rates to combat body roll. Stiffer springs, in general, will always combat body roll.


One major advantage, but the price also shows that.


Almost all coilovers do this, including the K2RD systems.
Unless you're talking about adjustablilty of the damper itself?


I don't build cars to impress people with what brands I'm running.


I dunno what this has to do with coilovers.
A suitably stiff chassis can easily do this also.

Partially correct.
Dampers are designed to work with suitable spring rates.
The part you're wrong on is that most (expensive) dampers are adjustable.
Adjustable dampers can be used with a range of spring rates.
The wider the damper rate, the wider the spring rate choices.

So basically, you're saying you're stuck with the one spring rate that came with your Teins?
If so, I find that to be a disadvantage.


So are the Koni yellows.

I've messed with Teins, and I find changing in one step increments did very little to damping adjustment.
I doubt you can tell the difference between "10" and "11".
I usually adjust increments in 4 or 5 steps per adjustment on the Teins to get a damping difference - this basically makes the Teins into a 4 or 5 way adjustable, like most of the other aftermarket shocks available for the FC3S, i.e. Tokico Illuminas and KYB AGX's.

K2RD suspension packages do to, and the K2RD units are probably the best and strongest on the market.
Are your camber plates makes out of aluminum?
K2RD ones are steel.
Does your pillow ball unit come with a Torrington bearing to handle vertical loads?
I bet yours only comes with a spherical bearing, which is not meant to take vertical loads.
If I remember correctly, only the K2RD and GC units come with Torrington bearings to handle the vertical loads.

I can do that with the stock suspension.

You really sound like a Tein advertisement.
I'm sorry to burst your bubble, but Teins are not the end-all to suspension upgrades.
Just be glad you're happy with your purchase...


-Ted

Ni5mo180SX

As someone who I see as an advocate of producing hard facts in support of their argument, I find this point lacking. I think its very hard to determine the full range of adjustibility without proper testing i.e. shock dyno, especially with all the variables involved from one setup to another.

I've heard this used in general versus most japanese shock manufacturers but at least from my personal experience with my JICs, theres no way you can't tell 8-10, 10-12, 12-15 and so forth. I'm fairly happy with the range it offers.

RETed

Now, this brings up an interesting point...

Does differences in the shock dyno translate into real world adjustability?
I think that's the bigger question behind this whole thing.

I'd like to think my *** isn't sensitive enough to detect a 1 detent changes in the Teins.
How's that for an answer?

I think the bazillion adjustment in damper settings is just a marketing ploy.
Of course, 16 is better than 4 or 5 or 8, right?
It's an advertisement ploy.

I mean the Koni yellows are continuously variable in adjustment, so it has bazillions on BAZILLIONS of adjustment, and that's more than the Teins...so does that make it better?
I typically adjust the Koni's in 1/4-turn increments for coarse adjustment, and then fine-tune in 1/8th turns, so in actually it comes out to a 16-position adjustment, same as the Teins.
At least I can feel the 1/8-turn on the Koni yellows...

I'd like to see a shock dyno graph of the Tein's myself!


-Ted

icesoft

This is true, which is why I mentioned the larger sway-bar.


Especially considering the EDFC is all of about $350 which still puts the coilovers in the ballpark of $1350.

I think we're talking about two different things here... The K2RD's look like a coilover sleeve kit like ground controls, please show me a picture to prove me otherwise. I am speaking of the lower mount which is where the damper attaches to the spindle, I believe you are talking about the lower perch with is where the spring attaches to the damper (see attached picture)

I don't either, I bought them to replace the blown 9yr old struts that were factory equipment on my 240SX and as an upgrade, factors that made them a plus were cost and turn-around time for rebuilding since Tein has facilities to rebuild their dampers in the USA. My car has very little 'Bling' to it, it's bone stock in outside appearance with the exception of being lowered by the coilovers and tinted windows... I hate big-*** wings and bright *** paint-jobs/decals, I don't want to drive a cop-magnet.

Duh?! It also has to do with the stiff spring rates and short stroke of the damper, you could never do this with standard struts (well you could but you'd have to have the front/rear end hella-high to do it) the stroke is just too long. I only found this out this weekend when I was changing my lower-ball joints and was somewhat amused by it... Is not the FC chassis a fairly stiff chassis too? I don't see the myriad of chassis stiffening bars that I see for the S14 which leads me to believe it's probably a stiffer chassis to start with.

Not quite, I can go +/- 2kg/mm from the factory rate with the dampers without having to send them back to Tein to be re-valved.

Yes, and you can have them re-valved to work with stiffer springs as well, but why go through the hassle, by the time you pay for the shock/strut cartridges, coilover sleeves, stiffer springs and rebuilding, and camber plates, you might as well have gotten true coilovers with an adjustable lower mount to boot...

I must have an incredibly sensitive *** then, I notice a big difference in ride when switching from say 6 to 8, granted they are not adjacent settings, they're not 4-5 clicks away...

What's Torrington have to do with anything, they are just a brand recently acquired by Timken... From the nopistons.com site, the camber plate looks like anodized aluminum to me... Aluminum has less weight, doesn't rust nor corrode when anodized, the bearing is a steel ball in a brass or bronze race sandwiched in the aluminum lower plate. Looks like the same general setup to me...

As could I, but 9yr old suspension with 165,000 miles on it makes it a little more hairy than I'd prefer...

No, just coilovers in general, JIC, Buddy Club, Zeal, Tein, Advance Design (The only true coilover Eibach makes) etc... Not Ground Control sleeves, or K2RD sleeves or knock-off sleeves.

And I know coilovers are not the end-all to suspension upgrades, I've put aluminum subfram bushings, adjustable upper arms, utethane bushings, larger sway-bars, stronger tie-rods, and coilovers on my car. All of these items make a difference in the car's handling ability.

RETed

Please be careful about what you say, cause you're showing your ignorance here.

This implies some pretty dangerous things.
It's possible, on the street, to drop a wheel and extend the shock to max extension.
Shocks are actually not designed to do this regularly.
There's a possibility that the shock could damage itself if it doesn't have enough extension.
That scares me.
You're basically usind your dampers as suspension travel limiters.
Add the weight of the hub, brakes, and suspension pieces, there's a lot of force trying to make the shock hit full extension.
I doubt the Teins are designed to hit full extension regularly.

I dunno what your point is, but changing **** without proper support (i.e. jackstands) is just plain stupid.
i don't see the advantage to this point.


[QUOTE]Not quite, I can go +/- 2kg/mm from the factory rate with the dampers without having to send them back to Tein to be re-valved.[.QUOTE]
The Koni's can handle anything from stock (2.0 kg-mm) to at least 10 kg-mm, without getting revalved.


Since we're talking about valving...
See above, plus Koni's can be converted to double adjustable.
I doubt the Tein's can do that.


That just made your 16-way adjustable to an 8-way adjustable...


You just know enough to be dangerous.
It's an industry standard to call a flat needle bearing a "Torrington".
This bearing is what's used to handle loads parallel to it's axis.
The rotary engine uses two of them in the front (section) stat gear.

A spherical bearing is not designed to take loads parallel to it's axis.
Many fail if you try to apply forces in this direction for any length of time.


It's black cad plated 3/16" steel.

I've seen 1/4" Ground Control front camber plates bent and cracked due to use, especially on the race track.
We've never got the K2RD plates to crack or fail even under heavy abuse on the race track.
Even when the race car managed to hit a hidden boulder, the front camber plate managed to bend a little but not crack.
I doubt ANY aluminum front camber plates would've held together unless it was 1" thick.
The cad plating is rust resistant, same as anodizing on aluminum.
Your steel ball = spherical bearing.


Again, you're making yourself look stupid trying to make insults...



-Ted

icesoft

First off, I'm not trying to start a flame war, I just can't see how some of the design features you talk about are very beneficial to the application.

Alright, after some research from the Ground Control site, yes they do use a needle bearing IN CONJUNCTION WITH a spherical bearing. The needle bearing is only on the spring seat in order to reduce friction when the strut body and spring turns from turning the car as the needle bearing will have less friction than turning a spherical bearing. The load is still carried by the spherical bearing. Sorry for not knowing the lingo surrounding the bearing industry...

http://www.ground-control.com/?D=38c...88e18c67625482
^ Had a terrible time finding that page.

I was not talking about the black portion of the K2RD camber plates, I was looking at the annodized blue aluminum bearing holder which in fact holds a spherical bearing... I thought a flat needle bearing would never work very well in this application which is why I doubted your information on the plates. As the flat needle bearing would only allow movement in one axis and would be prone to binding if used in that particular location alone without some other device (rubber bushing, sherical bearing, etc...) to allow full range of movement. If I am wrong please prove it to me.

I'm interested in what's included with the K2RD coilover kit so I know what you're talking about, from what I could gather from the nopistons.com site was that they mainly amounted to coilover sleeves (like ground controls) and camber plates... Just add the damper of your choice, like Koni's, AGX's, Tokicos, etc. Please enlighten me as to if there is anything more included such as an adjustable lower mount (not spring perch). Pictures would be beneficial as I cannot find any that show the kit at all, just the camber plate and the spring.

The only reason you should bend/break a camber plate is if the damper ran out of stroke and bottomed out, hard (such as hitting a boulder, curb, etc...) At that point, there's probably more broken than the plate and the rest should be inspected and the plate replaced anyway (bent, broken or otherwise...) Besides, I would rather break a camber plate than deform a strut tower anyday.

No where did I say that I do not use jack stands when working on my car, rotating tires or otherwise, I just mentioned that I can lift 3 wheels off the ground using one jack-point. This is just something I noticed this weekend whilst changing the lower ball joints on the car.

I doubt the damper is going to hit full extension very hard on the street unless you're hauling *** over a hill or drop-off. If you hit a pothole that completely unloads the damper, you're probably going to have other problems. With swaybars it's unlikely that the damper would hit the top of travel unless you lifted the whole axle off the ground. And the suspension pieces, brakes, and wheels weigh what, like 80 lbs tops... That's really not a whole lot of force unless you unload it extremely fast.

The point of a short stroke damper is that they are designed to work with a higher spring rate and reduced amount of travel associated with it, not that I can change three tires by lifting the corner 5 inches. But then again you already knew that.

16 way, 8 way, infinate way... Whatever, a click is 1/8 of a turn on the Teins, the effects are noticeable at 1/4 turns to me, but that doesn't mean that that 1/8 turn from one click isn't doing anything... The amount of clicks necessary to make a difference is subjective and cannot be used for reference. You could turn it from full soft to full stiff and there'll be somebody who cannot tell the differance. And the Teins are infinately adjustable under the detent device, and adjustment range is 2 turns. The detent device is there to keep the adjustment screw under it from changing positions on it's own and to give you a numerical "position" and range of adjustment.

And I was not trying to insult anybody, if I did I appologize, sorry if you took it the wrong way.

RETed

The only load the spherical load is carrying is due to the damper trying to extend further.
The springs are carrying most of the compression load, and that transfers from the spring, to the spring hat, to the Torrington bearing, into the front camber plate / front strut tower mount.

Please see above.
Spherical bearing takes most loads from deflection of the damper.
Torrington bearing takes most of the loads from the spring (compression).


Yes, they are retrofit coilover spring / sleeves + front camber plates and rear pillow ball plates.


Aluminum is not a very good material for continuous flex cycling.
It's just the nature of the metal.
I've seen Ground Control front camber plates warp and crack on race cars, consistently.
I'd really prefer steel.
I usually pick function over form.
Steel fasteners usually corrode (dissimilar metals electrolysis) on aluminum camber plates and adjustment is a bitch. A touch of anti-sieze can help, but that's one added preventative item you need to remember.


My FC already does this, so I don't see a point debating this.


Oh, then you drive on very smooth roads.
We also have mountain roads here, and "dropping a wheel" is not unheard of.
We also do this on the track regularly.
Oh, and you got the numbers a bit off...typical wheel and tire combination is about 30#; add unsprung weight which adds another 10# to 20#, and then factor a 400# to 500# spring under full compression suddenly unloading. Now, if the damper is doing it's job, then it's not a problem. Do this rigorously for a certain length of time, and heat sets in, which degrades damping properties.
You'd be surprised how fricken hot a damper gets just on the shock dyno.


My point was the damper should not be the suspension limiter.


-Ted

MikeL

Ted,
If you are banned, it was done by someone other than me. You should talk to
Tony about that. Again..., I asked Tony if I could ban you when you wouldn't stop
bothering me (PMs) after I warned you to not call forum members bad names.

If I had banned you, Tony could have reinstated you. If you are banned, Tony is
aware of it.

I like Tony. Please, if you quote me, include this entire message. I will be
forwarding this message to him.

As for my feelings towards you, I like the information that you give. I don't like
the manner in which you give it. I mean, this car thing is nothing more than a
hobby for many of us. I want the quickest car that I can have without having to
live the life of a car nut. I think that many people feel the same way.

I have no bad feelings toward you. I have asked for help from you in the past
and have gotten it. I'm thankful that I did.
Mike

Here's Tony at my house, before he got sick. I hope he's okay now:

RETed

I dunno how to get in contact with him properly.
I tried the webmaster@www.teamfc3s.org, and it bounced.
I've tried PM's on here and on NoPistons.COM with no response.
I would gladly have any reply on why the account was banned.
I really don't care that it is banned - I just want to know why.
If you're telling the truth, then I'm spreading misinformation - I don't want to do that and just want to get to the bottom of the reason why I was banned.


-Ted

calio64

mikel, thought you should know that your fd uim is port matched to the lim, this is if you got it from soul assasin

MikeL

I did get it from him, but it's not been matched. I'll do that the next time I blow up the engine.

FD gasket on S5 LIM:


FD gasket on FD UIM:

calio64

looks pretty port matched to me, check out what it looks like with no port match

look on the last page at the bottom

http://www.teamfc3s.org/forum/showth...5&pagenumber=8

MikeL

The S5 LIM is really close. I don't know if it's been worked on.

The FD UIM though, needs about 1/8" removed from each runner opening. I guess it's hard to tell in the photo.

MikeL

That's 1/8" all the way around each opening.

That photo on the other forum is a S5 gasket. You'll use the FD gasket.

calio64

i actuall ended up using the s5 gasket

on the other forum that the s5 gasket on the s6 manifold

so the pic you posted of the s6 gasket on the s5 manifold should look like that, and it obviously fit pretty close which means it gotta be port matched because if not it would be way more off

on the pic you posted the s6 fits perfectly on the s5 maniold, so what are you gonna port? the s6 manifold to fit it gasket better? i might take mine off and do that

calio64

its definetly been worked on, if not the holes wont line up no were near that close, it would look like the pic in the other forum

i think that the japs does such a good job you couldnt even tell

MikeL

My FD UIM has not been worked on at all. The runner openings are rough cast still. I had another FD UIM and it was exactly the same.

Yes, I will open up the FD UIM to fit the FD gasket and therefore my S5 LIM.

calio64

so basiclly your s5 LIM was port matched to the FD UIM

my FD UIM was port matched to the s5 LIM

i wonder if theres some kind of diffrence?

MikeL

My S5 LIM was port matched to the FD gasket or just happens to be the right size. I don't know which.

My FD upper is untouched.

A slightly modified FD (metal) gasket is between them.