Jager

iTrader: (10)

MS Protege's run 6.5lb's stock :o.

I feel like being a smart ***.

Tech_Greek

lol, well he's running 10lbs with a boost controller.

Jager

iTrader: (10)

Ah, that's pretty nifty then actually. I hope you hit 13's with a tune and full exhaust .

SonicRaT

iTrader: (6)

Well, that's kind of relative, 180 seems to be the ballpark number for this kit thrown on an otherwise healthy engine, usually it seems to be a net gain around 20-35hp. With porting, full exhaust, standalone, it's usually around 55-65. I think 13's will be a heck of a stretch for that charger without some mysterious magic happening. None of the many dynos have given numbers to support 13's, so it's not looking very good. Given from what I've seen on all the others, I'd suspect the car should be on-par with a s5 TII, right around the 15 flat area

Tech_Greek

I'm not crossing my fingers for 13's, I suppose it's possible, but I defintley need the tune BAD.

This is how the car feels on the butt dyno

1k rpm - pulls hard
2k rpm - Hang on to the oh-**** handle
3k rpm - pulls hrad
4k rpm - Hang on
5k rpm - Hang On
6k rpm - Pulls Hard
7k rpm - Holy Christ
- 8k rpm - I don't even want to look down at the speedo it's pulling so hard! Which is usually where my car gains any lost ground in races, 5-8k is my peak power point in my car for racing at the moment.

The cars I've raced, and beat up on so far have made me confident that it's going to run 14's easily, but I'm guesstimating about a mid 14 if I'm good, but I'm having BIG traction issues at the moment, I spin the tires all the way through first and some through second, previous owner has four different brands of tires on lol...Yokahoma Time with some new rims!

Net for the exhaust on a TII net's around 30 hp, I don't see any reason why it wouldn't in my case as I have forced induction now as well, plus the N/A is more restrictive and I have rusted crappy exhaust anyways...with my cats still there and no air pump (d'oh)

88rxn/a

iTrader: (6)

it would be nice to not feel the dog below 2,000.so the charger starts right off idle correct???

SonicRaT

iTrader: (6)

The charger isn't that efficient, full exhaust on a tII bumps the boost a good 2-3psi on a charger with an average efficiency of around 70%, with that camden it won't be as big of an effect (although it'll be more than just an n/a, still not by much)

Tech_Greek

Yes 88rxn/a - the moment you hit the gas you get full boost...

SonicRAT, how much HP do you think a free flowing exhaust would be...

Say RacingBeat Truel Dual Exhaust or just a Engine Back exhaust from them (single to dual).

OR

I have a friend of mine that is sellin a 3.5" full exhaust as well...

SonicRaT

iTrader: (6)

I'd say around 200rwhp with a good tune & full exhaust, possibly a hair less/more

Tech_Greek

Good enough for me!

88rxn/a

iTrader: (6)

full boost off the throttle, that would be great!!! i love the sound of the charger man!! id go through tires like crazy.

SonicRaT

iTrader: (6)

lol, least your hopes won't get shot down come dyno day!

Tech_Greek

Dude, I made 110 HP when I had only four ports and I didn't care...lol

Yes, very tempting to go through tires, and at this rate I'll be out of them by the end of the month if I keep going through first like I am!

SonicRaT

iTrader: (6)

Then why'd you make me damn near get carpel tunnel fixing them!? Stupid bolts and their screwy *** angles!

sc0rp7

iTrader: (3)

a 198 rwhp N/A FC has run 13.6's in the 1/4 with street tires and full interior, soo 200 should net you 13's....

i would run a true dual exhaust all the way out the back assuming you have an unported engine, treat the exhaust as if it was any other N/A rotary, that being said a true dual system is still supposed to offer something like 24 rwhp gain according to % hp increase...

- chris

SonicRaT

iTrader: (6)

You would need about a 2600lb car (and driver) to run that in the drag strip with 198rwhp. Considering he has a S5 with no weight reduction, that is a far bit off.

sc0rp7

iTrader: (3)

This was achieved by an ex member of TeamFC3S, Jaidedeye i believe... his car had other modifications, but it still only produced 198 rwhp, he did in fact run a high 13 second 1/4 mile time, which i am almost sure was claimed to be a 13.6.... granted this was before i became REALLY sceptical about everything i read and research thoroughly, he had different mods including light-weight rotors and etc though i believe... i do NOT have any idea the weight of the car, but i dont believe it had any serious weight reduction done at ALL....

however, according to an acceleration calculator (i know not real world, but does give an idea) a 2750lb car with 200rwhp would run the 1/4 in under 14 secs....

i am not swearing by any numbers, just posting information i have come across, I do not believe it to be impossible, maybe improbable....

- chris

Jager

iTrader: (10)

And give proof that it the true duals actually are more efficent then a collected system?

Tech_Greek

AFAIK a collected system scavenges the exhaust flow to expel it faster, on a forced induction car this isn't needed due to the fact the exhaust flow is already being expelled so fast...thats just from reading around I have no idea if its true or not.

Weight savings isn't too great ATM, I've got almost all my tools in the passenger seat right now for any just in casers that might happen.

- Tech

sc0rp7

iTrader: (3)

The true dual system has been backed up by far greater "deities" than me a few times, IF you have any type of porting, a collected system is better for extreme performance in mind and for ported engines.... (assuming you have a S4, S5's actually make more power up top with some sort of collected system, this is because they have effectively 1k rpms more to their power band and before their rev limiter)

a reference to the "claimed" hp increase from a true duals system... 28% increase in RWHP on a dyno, with power peaking at 7k rpm according to their testimony....

http://mazdatrix.com/r-ex86nt.htm

a "quote" from one of Rotarygod's threads....

"All of you true dual guys are probably wondering how your systems work. Remember that there are 2 different kinds of waves in both the intake system and the exhaust system. We have the actual gas wave itself. This wave speeds up with rpm. We also have the acoustic wave which regardless of rpm always travels at the speed of sound. When we are tuning a runner to a particular rpm, we are tuning it to a resonant acoustic wavelength. On a collected system, the acoustic waves help to scavenge the exhaust gasses out by creating low pressure zones which help pull the gasses out of the engine. When the acoustic waves encounter the collector, the increase in area causes the acoustic waves to change in phase and direction. In other words, the length of the pipe after the collector no longer contributes to acoustic scavenging from the engine. Since these resonances have changed direction at the collector, any acoustic waves after the collector are now helping to pull the gasses away from the collector. There are now 2 points of acoustic tuning within our exhaust! The collector also utilizes the gas pressure wave from one pipe to strengthen the other. They will each pull each other out. A true dual system only has the very first acoustic resonance help. Only 1 spot of acoustic benefit and not 2. The longer the pipe, the lower the rpm where power is gained. If the pipes exit the rear of the car then low end power should be fantastic. If they exit midway under the car then you may have great midrange on up but no help on the low end. You get the idea. As you get higher and higher in rpm, you will hit a point where power falls off pretty hard where the collected systems might keep going. They lack the other scavenging benefits though. On a street driven car with stock porting the true dual may not be a bad thing. Power gain is very nice throughout the powerband due to length and it is still strong at the factory redline. On a ported car or anything even remotely designed around high performance, it should be laughed at. If you have a roots style blower, exhaust design is going to have minimal effect as long as it flows good. Sorry to make this long but I thought everyone should know this. I'm sick of the true dual vs. collected debate. Make your own conclusions now that you know this information."

that being shown, yes you may get more peak HP from a collected system on a stock port N/A, or make more power higher if you have a S5 and like to redline it, but i stand by for a S4 a true dual system i believe would give you the most benefit throughout the entire rev range. I can see where with an S5 engine you would actually want it collected at some point, for power up to redline....

Being that he does, after closer inspection, have a S5, i would suggest one of the following for peak torque qher eyou want it, this also came from RotaryGod's thread...

To tune at 6500 rpm (stock intake tuning frequency)
This is the best number to tune for based on stock gearing.
short primary: 23.1"
long primary: 95.4"

@7000 rpm
short primary: 21.37
long primary: 88.5"

@7500 rpm
short primary: 19.89"
long primary: 82.54"

Now the stock intake tuning frrequency is not the same as where your car is probably making peak torque due to it looking as though your intake manifold is shorter, so your Intake manifold is making more pwer up higher in the rpm range (above 6500 rpm) I would therefore tune my exhaust for peak torque at 7k rpm or 7.5k rpm.... I am no expert, just someone who has done a good bit of research and wanted to give some opinions backed up by respected people...

- chris

SonicRaT

iTrader: (6)

From most before/after dynos posted on the forum of true duals, they tend to add around 15-20 to the wheels, versus generally around 10-15 with a header/etc. The gains versus cost aren't worth it in my opinion. But, after going through every dyno I can find regarding the camden chargers, it appears on stock injectors with the '11psi' pulley they make right around 170-180rwhp with intake/exhaust. I'd imagine with a standalone you could bump about 15 on that, the rest would be direct engine mods in my opinion (such as porting, etc)

sc0rp7

iTrader: (3)

am i the only one that sees a problem with them, only making that much power with boost? that seems VERY low... but i dont drive the cars, maybe the whole line is greatly above stock and it just dosnt make much more peak hp.... i was under the impression, with great intake, great exhaust, and a stand-alone you could make 170rwhp or so.... (well, that and no accessories, E-Fan)

- chris

SonicRaT

iTrader: (6)

Generally on stock ports it's around 160ish, little higher little lower. And yes, they don't add very much, this has been discussed in long length before. They do add some low-end torque, but that appears to be their only advantage really.

Jager

iTrader: (10)

That "dyno" proof was made by a former manufacter of a True Duals exhaust, would you beleive a dyno done by the creators? Its called marketing. Would you buy 14.4HP pullies from Mazda Racing or a 15HP e-fan? Do you really get those gains? **** no.

The only way to prove which is better to do a same day dyno. The closests thing Ive seen was RarestRX and his year apart dyno. Whats also sick is that it only gained 5 HP with a few more modifications . But its discounted since its a year apart, also fyi, it had 110PSI on both rotors.

Also RotaryGod is a self proclaimed bias guru. 95% of the people I talk too hardly see him as respected or even as a knowledgeable source. I bet if I talked alot with big words on a subject where not alot of people know about, I bet I'de be a "guru" also!

rotorwannabe

well i cant argue with any of you really on the topic at hand but i can say that the requests for a video of the car needs to be pressed for a bit more. lol id like to see it in action man