Shocks and Ground Control Coilovers?
08-07-10, 09:50 PM
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Shocks and Ground Control Coilovers?
So I've been thinking about getting a setup with Ground Control Coilovers. I am planning on starting with Tokico Blues initially with stock springs, because my shocks are not too good, since they are the original. I've heard lots of good things about them so I will go this route. Eventually I will upgrade at least the rears to the Illuminas. Now the question is, what kind of spring rate can they handle? I'd like to use something that is between the spring rate of stock or aftermarket and coilovers, but I'm not sure what would be good, I was thinking on the lines of 200 lb springs in the front and 150 lb springs in the rear. Thoughts?
08-07-10, 11:42 PM
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Not exactly the response I wanted, it also a response I've seen many times. What I asking for is a specific answer, not a recommendation for something different.
I'm sorry but I hate when I get response that tell me that I should do something different, when I am asking a specific question.
I'm sorry but I hate when I get response that tell me that I should do something different, when I am asking a specific question.
08-08-10, 02:36 AM
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That is too bad because if you are more open-minded then people may give you a warning that you are about to make a very costly mistake. Actually, in this case it may be two costly mistakes, but I would never want to upset you by mentioning such things. Therefore, good luck with your project, lol.
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08-08-10, 05:18 PM
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Also if I were to get Koni dampers? where would be the best/cheapest place to get them, and does Koni have different dampers to choose from? I've been trying to find some info on them but all I see are yellows.
Also are the fronts insert type carts, I'd prefer to stay away from them, but could be convinced if installation is easy enough.
I'm not being closed minded, I'd rather use a strut/shock type unit then a actual coilover unit like Stance, where if I blew one I'd have to deal with the company, were as with Koni or Bilstein, which ever I would go with, I know they've been around for a long time.
Right now I was considering Tokico, because I was seeing a bunch of good reviews on them.
08-08-10, 07:51 PM
#11
That is too bad because if you are more open-minded then people may give you a warning that you are about to make a very costly mistake. Actually, in this case it may be two costly mistakes, but I would never want to upset you by mentioning such things. Therefore, good luck with your project, lol.
08-08-10, 09:13 PM
#12
Your proposed spring rates do sound about right for a moderately firm street ride - stiffer than either the Eibach Prokit or RB springs, but about the right front/rear differential and not so firm as to be punishing on the street.
Fellow autocrossers haven't had much good to say about the Tokico blues or Iluminas - lots of blown shocks with only moderate lowering and stiffer springs - but none on RX-7s, and I haven't seen the same sort of complaints here with applications on 7's.
As you may see in my sig, I do have GC coilovers combined with KYB AGX struts, and I've been pretty happy with them - they are easy to adjust, and no problems with seized adjusters or anything of that sort after nearly 4 summers with them on - so I'm not really sure why they would be considered a costly mistake, I consider it a bonus they can be used with a number of aftermarket struts, versus some considerably more expensive setups that don't perform or adjust well.. I'm using 350lb/in front, 275lb/in rear Eibach ProRace springs. I wouldn't recommend those rates for a primarily street driven car, I can live with it, but it is a bit punishing on our frost-heaved and potholed Canadian roads.
If I was doing it over again, I'd probably have gotten Koni yellows for the front struts, but at the time, the exchange rate sucked and really amplified the price difference between the AGX's and Konis. I would keep the AGXs at the rear though, as the non-adjustability of Koni rears on the car (without undoing the lower strut mount) is a dealbreaker, as I change the rear settings for both street use and to fine-tune to suit particular autocross courses.
The GC people were very helpful on the phone in terms of selecting spring rates, although they did seem inclined to guide me towards firmer rates - I know another racer with a v8 FC, and he's only running slightly higher spring rates than me, so I let that guide me. They might deal a lot with Honda's and other cars that have much lower motion ratios, where 500lb/in springs are still a reasonable street spring.
Hopefully this helps answer both the OP's and incubseva's questions a bit.
08-09-10, 02:28 AM
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So here's the deal, I've considered the options, and have decided to go with Bilsteins. Here's the questions/assumptions:
1. I assume these will have no fitment issues with stock top mounts.
2. Is there a write up of some sort to install the fronts, because they are inserts. I've done inserts before, but only on a car that required them, not ones that required modifying the struts to use them.
1. I assume these will have no fitment issues with stock top mounts.
2. Is there a write up of some sort to install the fronts, because they are inserts. I've done inserts before, but only on a car that required them, not ones that required modifying the struts to use them.
08-09-10, 07:47 AM
#14
If you're going with off the shelf shocks, your best bet is to just go with a matched spring package from Racing Beat, Eibach, Suspension techniques etc. I wouldn't recommend this with Tokico Blues as they're not meant for higher rate springs.
The Bilsteins will be fine with any of those springs as well.
If you really must have coilovers, start with Koni shocks from Ground Control and have them spec out a spring package for you. The springs I have on my car are 450 front and 275 rear, but my car is much lighter (especially in the back) than your car is.
The Bilsteins will be fine with any of those springs as well.
If you really must have coilovers, start with Koni shocks from Ground Control and have them spec out a spring package for you. The springs I have on my car are 450 front and 275 rear, but my car is much lighter (especially in the back) than your car is.
08-10-10, 12:16 AM
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08-10-10, 02:33 PM
#18
bilsteins are good stuff. I would recommend either them or koni yellows, most of both are rebuild-able which is nice.
ground controls are nice, but mainly due to the corner weighting capability and the ability to easily swap spring rates.
you may want to consider more normal springs like the racingbeats because they're progressive rate which you would probably like better for daily driving.
(you might be able to get progressives with the ground controls I'm not sure.)
ground controls are nice, but mainly due to the corner weighting capability and the ability to easily swap spring rates.
you may want to consider more normal springs like the racingbeats because they're progressive rate which you would probably like better for daily driving.
(you might be able to get progressives with the ground controls I'm not sure.)
08-10-10, 04:22 PM
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its not a huge deal, as GC knows what fits what, but it does require you to pick a shock first.
on shock choice, the AGX is an excellent choice for street and even racing with softer springs. we have a set of them from 2001-2002, they did 2-3 seasons of racing, and and another 3 seasons of track days and are just fine.
the eibach springs are 200/180 according to the mazdaspeed catalog (3.6/3.2).
08-10-10, 06:03 PM
#21
Being clear on why you want coilovers in the first place makes it much easier for people to help you. There is nothing wrong with wanting coilovers only to lower ride height for a more aggressive stance and/or to make the car handle a bit better.
You will waste your money spending $1000+ on coilovers if you only want them for the above reasons, in which case the ground control/blues (given that the blues can handle the springs) setup is fine, standard rates are 375lb/in. F and 250lb/in. rear (the front may be 325-not sure). Verts are a bit heavier so I would request stiffer springs but it won't make a big difference if you aren't autocrossing or doing track events.
You will waste your money spending $1000+ on coilovers if you only want them for the above reasons, in which case the ground control/blues (given that the blues can handle the springs) setup is fine, standard rates are 375lb/in. F and 250lb/in. rear (the front may be 325-not sure). Verts are a bit heavier so I would request stiffer springs but it won't make a big difference if you aren't autocrossing or doing track events.
08-11-10, 07:19 PM
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A few years before I converted the RXX-7 to its current (20B) configuration, I replaced the stock suspension with Ground Control coilovers (550# front and 450# rear) and Tokico Illuminas (5-way adjustables).
With that suspension, I was able to go to the track and out-corner almost anything. (Of course, with the 2-rotor N/A engine, I got passed on the straights. I've fixed that problem since then.
)
Interestingly, this setup was still great after the 20B conversion.
FWIW, the Illuminas are still set on "5" after 10 years, because I'm too lazy to dig in the back to find the adjusters, so I could have got by with the Blues. This means that the ride is very firm. After growing up on British sportscars, I don't usually notice.
With that suspension, I was able to go to the track and out-corner almost anything. (Of course, with the 2-rotor N/A engine, I got passed on the straights. I've fixed that problem since then.
)Interestingly, this setup was still great after the 20B conversion.
FWIW, the Illuminas are still set on "5" after 10 years, because I'm too lazy to dig in the back to find the adjusters, so I could have got by with the Blues. This means that the ride is very firm. After growing up on British sportscars, I don't usually notice.
08-11-10, 08:02 PM
#23
The GC people were very helpful on the phone in terms of selecting spring rates, although they did seem inclined to guide me towards firmer rates - I know another racer with a v8 FC, and he's only running slightly higher spring rates than me, so I let that guide me. They might deal a lot with Honda's and other cars that have much lower motion ratios, where 500lb/in springs are still a reasonable street spring.
Hopefully this helps answer both the OP's and incubseva's questions a bit.
Hopefully this helps answer both the OP's and incubseva's questions a bit.
I'm running a pretty big front bar (ST two-way) and 450lb front springs. This is on a car that is about 2,450lbs plus another 160lbs of driver. About 660lb front corner weights. I race on street tires, and it's certainly not too stiff. Here's a pic of the car on moderately grippy concrete. FWIW, the rear springs are 275lb and the rear sway bar is disconnected.
Tokico Illuminas aren't valved for high spring rates. They work okay with typical OTS springs (200-250lb) but won't last long at rates higher than that. Plus, the adjuster changes bound and rebound simultaneously. Not what you want.
I'm not really in love with the Konis on my car either. I'll probably have them re-valved in the off season or switch to ASTs or Motons.
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