RTEK 2.0 vs Standalone EMS?
 

Ok, I'm curious. What's the difference between the Rtek 2.0 and an actual Standalone EMS? What does a Standalone EMS have the the Rtek 2.0 doesn't have?

I can see that the Standalone EMS would have more options for fuel injectors, while the rtek has a few presets.

Rtek:
14 x 14 Fuel Correction Maps
21 x 19 Adjustable Timing Maps
Adjustable secondary staging RPM

Amongst other things.

How much better is a Standalone EMS?

go only standalone....there is no use in an rtek imo...

lots could be said here, but its all been said before. Logging is one of the chief advantages of an EMS, as in total control over the engine and what you need to run it.

^ Rteks datalog too.

How about a fraction of the price, extremely easy to tune since the starting point is the stock maps, and it will allow you to pass smog tests in the land of overzealous emissions laws: CA?

define fraction of the price... you can pick up a haltech e6k for $500 if you look hard enough...

Is that a used price? I'm sure you could find a used Rtek 2.x for $3-400. I think their new price is up to something like $470. And the price of a standalone does not include dyno and/or tuner costs you'll incur building the maps from scratch. It's just not nearly as ready to go out of the box, which means more time/money to get things right.

...rtek you still need to tune....which would include dyno time/tuner costs....lets face it dude....standalone is the way to go...not a chipped stock old ass ecu....

and you can find a haltech e6k full sensors for $500 if you wait/look around...i just sold one :)

You have LOT less to tune. And you ignored the most important part of my original reply: the OP lives in CA just like I do. Jumping through hoops every 2 years is how it works, and good luck running the emissions equipment with a haltech in there.

:wallbash::facepalm1:

A microtech may be so outdated it seems a monkey designed it, but the great part is a monkey could tune it too.

I picked up an Rtek 2.0 for $270 used. I have yet to install it. I don't see whats so "Bad" about it. sure a full standalone has a more sensitive tuning ability and definitely has that Baller status. Imo is not needed unless you plan on going 350+hp. Rtek is perfect for mild to moderately modified 7's.

Ok- I did not think we would need to get into this again, but here we go-

RTEK is only as good as the original ECU, and since the S4 was not that good to begin with, your limited. The knock control, ignition and fuel accuracy, etc. are all lacking when compared to a good EMS.
Haltec IMHO sucks and I would not use it on a cheap go-kart, but thats MY opinion, others love them. AEM, MOTEC, these are where its at, cutting edge technology that works, and the AEM is affordable.
Now, one arguement thats often used for Haltec is that the stock harness sucks and should be replaced. This can be true, but not all cars suffer this and to me its just not worth adding in potential failure points if the OEM harness is in place and working. Again this is my point of view based on having dealt with the product over the years as well as watching the issues others have had.

A few more bits of information-
It is a lot easier (generically) to get a modified car through emissions using an EMS than trying to to use the stock ECU. I ummm know of OBD2 cars including Evos and STI's using AEM ecu's that sailed through emissions, they simply claimed thier OBD2 port had never worked right and it was $$ to fix it. In every case they testing center simply tested the car as if it were an OBD0 or 1 car and let it roll. Older cars are even easier, and I got a barely tuned MK3 Supra to FAST pass first try, so getting an FC to pass even Denvers Nazi dyno test is cake, esp with O2 feedback enabled ;)

Yes, a standalone cost money, but they are not as expensive inthe long run as buying piece of crap after piece of crap until you finally get tired of jacking with the car and just putting one in. I have a customer right now with a Nissan who spent a fair chunk of money over the years installing an AFC, then some other POS piggyback, a 'chipped' ECU, until finally he put the AEM in, and all is well with the world. My advice if your modding a car, think about your goals and if the end point is pretty high, the first money spent, before anything else- before turbo, fuel system, intercooler or exhaust- before anything, needs to be the EMS thats going to run it all. Its just the smart thing to do, and smart money spent.

Unfortunately, the Series 4 does not have support with the AEM EMS, I've looked there is no patch harness, so all the wiring would have to be soldered or crimped in or something. Not something that I'm particularly interested in doing, unless I had all the information I needed. Not to mention any base map the AEM has will most likely be for a turbo model, not an NA or Turbocharged NA engine. So in the end it's still going to cost a butt ton of money.

So it still hasn't been explained why the aftermarket EMS are better. What kind of specifications or capabilities make it better? Other than being newer.

The biggest question is... what is the setup and the goals for the car?

Banzai Racing Power FC harness will work.

Also, Rich at Autosport Wiring will make you virtually any wiring harness adaptor you want, and his pricing is right.

I actually do have basemaps for a 6-port for AEM. In fact I have basemaps for small block chevys, Audi 5-cylinders, Porsche 4 and 6 cylinders, and even the Dodge SRT8 motor, all using AEM.

really?

because I've been doing research for EMS for my FC. Thinking of AEM or F-Con V-Pro.

Like D Walker said, I always think long term so I don't mind paying extra to get the best in the first place. At least Im sure I will be able to do it right.

So Banzai Racing sells the harness that will work with AEM. what about F-Con V-Pro? Anybody use that before ?

LOGGING- yes RTEK logs, but the speed and usefulness of the data is not in the same league. Inormation is everything, and you cannot tune a car without it.
RESOLUTION- Accuracy is the life of your engine when using EFI, if I need say anymore you need to sell your car and take up sailing.
FLEXIBILITY- I have cars running as Flex-Fuel cars, able to run pump gas or e-85 without changing maps etc. Most EMS's will be able to control boost, have outputs to control other things like fans, water injection, nitrous, traction control, etc. The ability to use any sensor opens up commonly available and less expensive sensors. I could go on-
TOTAL CONTROL- AEM gives you actual knock control, boost cut, built-in two steps that are able to be tailored to your engines needs, full control over the idle, warmup, etc.

I can go on, but I hope the point is made. Hell go to aempower.com, pop over to the AEM forums and download the AEMPRO (not TUNER) software and poke around.

aems are garbage....motec is the best but at a $5000+ price tag...i doubt anyone here can really afford to have a motec and unlock some of the tuning features...

haltech e6k is pretty much entry level....the p1000/p2000 arent nearly as good as the motec systems but they do rip alot of their stuff off and are fairly nice...motec then haltech....those are the only ecu's i would use in any of my cars....rtek...aem...microtech...why even waste your time

My understanding is only specific HKS dealers (that have paid an assload of money) can do much more tha a basic tune the F-Con. This might have changed, but even though I can sell them I never do, and I generically do not recommend them when they come up used.

Also, I know Banzai has a harness for the PFC into the S5 and it works. Not sure for an S4, BUT I know Rich at Autosport wiring can make you one, or I can make you one if I was motivated enough.

Nice thing about the AEM is that it does not really care as much as the PFC about some of the OEM inputs, so it may or may not be slightly easier to get up and running.

Cheers,
Don

I have a Banzai series 4 harness Power FC harness on my personal car right now. I have thought about switching from PFC to AEM but the car runs fine right now and I have higher priorities for the car. PM Banzai Racing about it, they can tell you more.

yea, bad thing about F-Con is that it has to be tune by HKS Pro dealers. There was a "leaked/hacked" version of their Tunner software leaked a while ago. but then HKS updated their F-Con again to block the hacked version from reading.

instead of F-Con V-Pro, I also wonder if F-Con iS would work with S5.

AEM smokes the Haltec onto the dirt in software, ease of use, features, and reliability :)

But then I am biased, I have over a dozen of them inthe shop at any given time, and have used them on everything from DD DSM's to single seat hillclimb cars. Funny thing- we have a good friend who had a Honda powered Wells Coyote Hillclimb car- pretty racey engine- big ITB's, bigger cams, the whole bit, and it had some whack ECU controlling it. The ECU failed, so I put an AEM Universal EMS in it. It was literally the most reliable ECU among the hillclim racers. Never once gave any issues despite the fact he ran a total loss electrical system, started onthe button every single time no matter what the weather and never once hiccupped. No other ecu was as reliable, including Haltec, Autronic, and Electromotive.

Haltec is pure crap IMHO, with possibly the worst tech support. Yes, the product is better now, the software is getting better, and so far they have been OK reliable, but it still buggy and crap and I wouldn't put it on a go-kart. But hey thats just me ;)
Oh and I do have them in the shop from time to time, and I do tune them fairly well, I just do not like them and think they are more trouble than they are worth.

Cheers,
Don

going back to my previous point about the OP's car: if it's just going to have some bolt on BNR turbo, looking for high 200s low 300s to the wheels, the Rtek makes more sense. It's far less money and trouble than all the other options.

If you have a naturally aspirated street car I DO NOT recommend a standalone. You simply cannot justify the cost in time and money. And trust me, if it ain't costing you much money it's going to cost you a lot of time (Megasquirt etc). Rtek 2.1 is perfect, especially if you have an s5 because you can delete the OMP without limp mode, control aux ports and VDI, adjust cranking fuel to fix flooding problems, etc. I wish it had been available when I had a nonturbo.

all i have to say is...you are full of shit....and extremely biased...you think haltech tech support is bad...try giving motec support a call :) bet you dont even get to talk to anyone....and they are literally the best of the best...

We have had an S4 adapter for nearly as long as the S5 (many years) http://banzai-racing.com/store/S4_PFC_adapter.html

Yes, it can be used to install the FD AEM EMS. There are people already using it.

Currently I am working on gathering parts for a 6-port T2 turbo setup, however I'm also planning on messing with the NA setup, see what's possible. What I wanted to know with this question is, how much better is a standalone, how much more finely tuned can you get. What do you mean by accuracy and resolution is better?

Ahhh wellI have worked for MOTEC dealersinthe past, so no the tech support is not bad, you just need to know who to call. Motec is not like other ECU companies in that they sell to dealers only, and the dealer is the one who is supposed to do the install and troubleshoot any issues.
Couple of MOTEC memories-

A fellow who travels to OZ quite a bit buys a MOTEC there, going around MOTEC USA. He is told specifically that MOTEC USA will not support him if he does this, but does it anyway. He has many issues with his self-install. Luckly for him the MOTEC dealer in town took pity and helped him out. The car still had issues unrelated to the MOTEC, and I have no idea where it all ended up. But the end result was he got what he needed.

Another one- Motec advertises a PNP STI ECU. The only one ever sold in the US is installed by the local MOTEC dealer. The car runs but has issues with the diff control, which in road racing an AWD car is where your laptime is. MOTEC USA is at a loss, so refer to MOTEC AUS. MOTEC AUS has not experienced the issue, so they went out ant got an 09/10 STI brought it in and were duplicating the tests etc. to help get this to work.
THATS customer service!

Cool- did not know that :) I will make a few people aware of that locally.

How well would this work with a Series 4 NA engine?

whew! I was worried my future RTEK purchase was going to be a waste. I have an S/4 N/A and I'm hoping with the RTEK I can monitor things a little more closely than the dash gauges - along with tune for a few more ponies and gas mileage. I realize not much can be done with an n/a so for the price of 450$ and getting introduced to tuning and monitoring a car how can that be BAD?????????

Any engine management is only as good as the tuning/tuner. We have had great success with the PFC on N/A cars, we have created a vacuum only map for the system that utilizes all the cells.

Ok, now I'm intrigued, the PFC is definitely in my sights now, not to mention how much more affordable it is then most other engine management systems.

Could you go over some details of how well the PFC works on an NA, well well as what capabilities you have with it when tuning NA? I suppose I would have full control of any injector I would like to use. Could you provide any review kind of information specifically for NA RX7s?

Like any engine management, the PFC gives you full control over timing, fuel, etc. You can add a knock sensor if you like, control an e-fan, etc

That being said the AEM can do the same thing.

We have achieved 199rwhp out of a non-ported S5 N/A on a Mustang Dyno. This was on the break in tune for an ITS race car, with just a full exhaust, MSD 6A and a set of 550 injectors. After break in this should increase to 210-215. Dyno sheet at the bottom of the gallery http://www.banzai-racing.com/dyno_gallery.htm

to the original question ... standalones can offer things like idle control, multiple maps, and some can double as boost controllers that the rtek cant but the rtek doesnt require any wiring or new sensors which might force you to drill and tap it is straight plug and play. the tuning is fairly simple the only issue i had with it was all tuning was done on a tiny palm which is annoying after a ccpl mins. But if you are just slightly moding your car it is by far the way to go its cheap and easy to use with no moding required...

That being said im surprised no one has mentioned megasquirt as a possible EMS. if you want a full standalone on a budget and you have some electrical skills this is the way to.

Wow, that's actually really impressive, I honestly wasn't expecting that much power from the stock ports. How good is the powerband with this tune?

Anymore specifics? What kind of gas was it running? How aggressive was the tuning?

I'm going to be actually doing something very similar, but instead of 550cc injectors, I am going to be using RX8 yellow injectors. I also need to pick up a header for mine as well.

I'll be doing all this prior to turbo charging, if I find that I like it, I'll shelve the turbo parts for now and have fun with it until I desire more power.

I think the question we should all be asking ourselves is: What do I need in an EMS?

Well in my case, reliable, affordable, and very versatile, which apparently the Apexi Power FC fulfills rather nicely.

The Rtek 2.0 is a piggyback that lets you change many of the parameters of the crappy old stock ECU that was designed in the 1980s. An actual standalone EMS completely replaces the stock ECU and AFM, which increases or adds some abilities and reduces or eliminates others, depending on the particular EMS.

The optimal method for selecting an EMS is to shop for a local tuner rather than an EMS. The idea here is to tell your tuner what you want and let him figure out how to make it happen. See my posts in this thread:
https://www.rx7club.com/forum/showthread.php?t=669577

Since you live in Kalifornia, your options may be limited.

Versatility rarely matters. For example, do you really need an EMS that will control Honda VTEC cam timing, wasted spark ignition on an Allison V12 engine, sequential fuel injection for up to 12 cylinders, and outputs real-time telemetry data to your pit crew? Talk to your tuner about what you really need and don't worry about the rest of the bells and whistles that you will never use.

Rtek 2.1 can control fuel and timing just fine. No custom wiring is needed to control both the aux ports and VDI on s5 applications (it uses the factory soleniods). The Power FC can't independently control both of those out-of-the-box. The Power FC requires removal of the vane airflow meter but on a sub 300whp application it's not a big restriction.

I have a Power FC on my T2. The advantage of the Power FC isn't so much that it's versatile. Compared to other standalones, it's really not (no real switched output capability for example, and no knock control). The advantage is that it was engineered to work on a rotary, so lots of Rx-7 specific things work out-of-the-box with minimal hassle. There is no time or trouble spent with crank angle sensor configuration/wiring. The s5 OMP works if you want to keep it and there is zero setup required. If you had sequential twin turbos you can control that right out of the box with zeros setup required. It can work with the FD, s5, or s4 TPS.

It can control boost if you know how to set it up and tune it. The injector staging is also IMO the easiest to configure of all the standalones. It controls the A/C out of the box as well, in exactly the same way as factory. It plugs right into the factory harness and has OEM-grade electrical noise filtering--so yes, it will work with old harnesses just fine as long as they aren't completely trashed. I have a 24-year-old harness on my car with integrated OEM resistor pack so I could run low impedence injectors.

The PFC is still going to cost you money though. You have to buy the unit, and I recommend you get it new because you will want the new hand controller which is much easier to read. If you want laptop access and datalogging you have to buy a separate box for that. To make it work on an FC you have to buy the adapter. Even with used parts it still adds up.

is the power fc user freindly
without being a professional tuner
also can you hook it up in your driveway

I think I will wait for Banzai Racing to reply here, there are some good points brought up about the Rtek 2.0 that I'd like to see if there is a counter argument made for the PFC.

I do not know what "argument" you are trying to provoke. You can put whatever ECU you want in your car. If you are on a budget, then stick with the stock unit, if you want something more controllable and have the money to spend, then there are options.

Dennis-yes the PFC and AEM can both be hooked up in ones driveway, with our adapter they are PNP for the most part. Tuning however can be dangerous in the wrong hands. Even a simple S-AFC can be tuned terribly wrong, I have seen this first hand.

so before purchasing one of these unit ...your saying to educate yourself in tunning
ive read few threds on tuning
but are there any tips and rules
for tunnig eg ...injector staging

No, not what I meant, I meant sorta like counter argument or debate against, not a fight argument.

Honestly, it's experience. One could write an entire chapter on it and a person with no experience is still going to struggle. When I worked with my first EMS, I spent months getting it right. And it still wasn't right! Yesterday I tuned a car from scratch, no base map at all, in about an hour with a tune I'm very pleased with. Experience is the key.

There are a couple books that I recommend. They're filled with good general information on how engine management systems work and what an engine needs to work properly. But in the end, you the tuner, needs to make it happen by feel and knowledge. The only way to gain that is experience.

http://www.amazon.com/Engine-Managem...4211459&sr=1-1
http://www.amazon.com/Modify-Managem...4211489&sr=1-2

I actually have the 2nd book but not the first.

I'm not sure this is really important to the OP or not, but does the PFC have the ability to give you CEL codes like the RTEK can?

still didn't see were his goals are listed, i'm sure that would end this EMS debate.
IMHO Goal<350=Rtek 2.x.

Haters call an Rtek a piggyback. simple truth is, when they update it to lose the AFM, and add in a few duty cycle controlled outputs, it will put it even more on par with everybody else.

Further more, YOU CAN USE ANY SENSOR with the rtek, it has the option within the software to define any parameters for such. although it only supports two extra over the stock.and things like the ECT and TPS can't be made to use one of these after market sensors, the extra two are more for datalogging, and display, like EGT,Lambda(a/f), boost/backpressure, knock.

the PFC does not utilize the check engine light anymore, it was built for Jspec cars and adapted for use on american cars by people in the US that wanted to have standalone EMS options aside from chipping their ECU. maybe Banzai rewired their adapter for the FC so that it uses the CEL versus the overheat exhaust temp light circuit which is how it works on the USDM cars with the PFC but that is only an ECU error indicator, the PowerFC does not have a trouble code generator circuit for the CEL.

if there is an issue it is easy to figure out by looking at the hand controller or laptop sofware unlike the stock ECU which gives no live data feeds for diagnosing issues. the Rtek 2.0/2.1 still generates codes like the stock ECU does.

Correct, it is easier then Check Engine codes, all the info is available on the Commander sensor/switch check screen http://www.banzai-racing.com/store_i...werFC_FD3S.pdf