need-a-t2

iTrader: (9)

I disagree, the whole point for removing the rats nest is to simplify the engine bay by removing the emissions components. I think that if your going to do it correctly, you should take ALL the emissions components off the motor and manifolds (and even remove the cat if possible). that would include the hot start sytem on the TB, which includes the thermowax. however, you are correct, that the TB does not NEED to be modified in order the remove the rats nest itself.

Digi7ech

iTrader: (1)

The hotstart system has NOTHING to do with emissions.

It's used for exactly what it's called HOT START. It changes the FPR reference to make a static fuel rate to help with hot starts.

The TB mod is done for two reasons. Removing the secondary butterfly to help air flow and then to remove the bastard thermowax and the coolant lines.

BTW to the orignal question. I just did th TB mod to an extra TB I had. I was going through Reted's site when he did mention that if you skipped the little spring part on it that it would cause the throttle to stick or somehting very high. Did you do EVERY step?

As for Vac leaks. There are only a couple places they could occur.
You did not seal the secondary butterfly holes suffiencently causing a leak or you have a crack TB vac line or if you removed the LIM you caused a leak there. OR the plastic mid plate has a crack or leak there.

Here is my test for Vac leaks.
If you have an aftrermarket filter you most liekly have the cone adapter(if your S4). GO to home depot and get a rubber pipe plug(I think 3 or 2inches).

This will cap off the system.
Then use an air compressor and use a valve and unplug a vac hose and put the compressed air through it.

Pressurize it to around 5psi more can pop stuff off. Then listen for hissing.

need-a-t2

iTrader: (9)

sorry, i mis-typed. the thermowax is for the cold start which has everything to do with emissions.

Digi7ech

iTrader: (1)

Not really.

The Cold start is to help the car idle on a cold start. The thermowax changes the open position of the throttle plates. I have to hold my throttle for a few seconds on a cold mornign to prevent the engine from conking out.

This again doesn't deal with emissions.

The only parts for emissions on our cars are.
ACV
EGR
majority of Solenoid rack
Precats
Cat
Air pump
oh yeah and as mentioned below PCV

Aaron Cake

iTrader: (1)

The BAC has nothing to do with the rats nest. It's not part of the emissions system. A proper rat's nest removal should not impact the functionality of the car since removing the rats nest does not necessarily mean removal of the BAC, cold start thermowax, purge valve, charcoal canister, etc.

need-a-t2

iTrader: (9)

it also preheats the cataletic converters, so it does have to do with emissions.

Digi7ech

iTrader: (1)

How does it Preheat the cats?

The 3k rpm rev does that which is not connected to the TB or thermowax.

There is a seperate solenoid for that. The AWS one or something.

Aaron Cake

iTrader: (1)

By running the engine at a faster speed. That's the main reason for the 3K startup. So yes, in a way the ASV/BAC have to do with emissions but that is only the primary purpose of the ASV, not the BAC. Also neither one of which are part of the rats nest.

NZConvertible

The thermowax is there to raise the idle speed when the engine is cold, that's it. It's not "cold-start" (it doesn't aid in starting the engine) and it has nothing to do with emissions. It simply makes the engine idle properly when it's cold. Removing it makes the engine idle badly when it's cold. There is no advantage to not having one.

As mentioned, that's taken care of by a seperate system.

Contrary to popular belief, "emissions removal" does not mean stripping everything off the engine not essential to make the engine run. Every part should be evaluated separately and its usefulness considered before removal. I've removed all of my emission controls and the TB's double throttle system because I considered these items unnecessary or redundant, but I've kept the thermowax, BAC valve and twin-scroll system because I consider these items useful and beneficial. I see no need to remove them from my car because they make it run better. They're also nothing to do with emissions.

Tech_Greek

Please go into this a bit further, as I believe when we installed my supercharger we bypassed the thermowax...as it sits, when the engines warm I can get it to idle at 1k rpm just fine, but when it's cold it has to idle at about 1500 RPM not to die...is this because of the thermowax?

Does the coolant line run up to the cap looking thing on the left side of the manifold and then run back down to the tstat housing?

Funkspectrum

iTrader: (5)

Excuse me, but this thread is a freakin headache.

I don't get why people argue about crap that has really nothing to do with each other.

Yes, I'd imagine so...If you did the TB mod, I believe you will probably have a lumpy idle on cold starts if not die on ya.

Yep...passes thru the TB and goes around to the waterpump housing...

NZConvertible

Exactly what do you mean by "bypassed the thermowax"? If you just disconnected it's coolant feed you'll get a constant high idle. If you want to disable the thermowax you have to remove both it and the linkages it actuates.

I have no idea what effect that supercharger kit has on idle. Any engine needs to idle higher than normal when cold, but if you can't idle below 1500rpm even when cold something is seriously wrong.

It runs from the thermowax outlet to a pipe on the side of the BAC valve, and from there to the back of the water pump.

Tech_Greek

You're technically supposed to have the idle set at 1500 RPM to 1800 RPM with the Camden Supercharger, I just like to push the limits.

When it's warm, I can idle at 1k RPM without a problem. When it's cold it has to idle at 1500 RPM or the idle will get too low and then die.

I have both the engine coolant spot on the back side of the block near the ground capped off and the back of the waterpump housing capped off.

SonicRAT is the one who messed with the emissions during the install, I've just been tweaking it past that.

PVD212

get a fuel regulater!! its always a good thing to have and its cheap

1RX7DRIVER

i got everything fixed car runs like a champ ordered a walboro 255 to put in her and shes good

Funkspectrum

iTrader: (5)

what did you do to fix it? I'm looking for answers to my idle problem...(my TPS is fine)

NZConvertible

But why? Unless you have a huge BP or PP, there's no reason why the engine has to idle that high. There are dozens of OEM supercharged engines and probably even more aftermarket kits, and none of them have this problem.

But did you remove the thermowax and linkage too? If not, that's probably why the idle's so high. The thermowax holds the primarly throttle slightly open until it has warm water flowing through it. Without the coolant flow it'll just hold the throttle open.

Tech_Greek

You're not getting what I'm saying, I didn't remove the emissions stuff, SonicRAT did it all. I have no idea if it's still connected, it's 2:33 AM in the morning.

When my engine is COLD, it won't idle below 1500 RPM
When my engine is WARM, it'll idle at 1000 RPM.

My car idles this way because it's a BUG with the Camden Supercharger, you're barking up the wrong tree about the whole it shouldn't have to idle blahblah - I've heard they have heard and I'm working on sovling the issue being as I'm the only S5 with it on.

NZConvertible

I understand exactly what you're saying, but unless you can tell me if the thermowax is still there then we're not getting anywhere. There's no rush, unless SonicRat posts first you can look tomorrrow and post what you find.

You asked me about the thermowax. I'm just trying to see if it's part of the problem. There has to be a logical explanation for it and a way to fix it. There's no way I'd just accept it just because Camden can't be assed figuring it out.

Aaron Cake

iTrader: (1)

Camden's kit seems to be very poorly designed. It kills the progressive throttle design, and merges the the two primary ports together at the block with an odd oval shaped port in the manifold. Couple that with the extra drag caused by the blower as well as elimination of the BAC and you get the high idle.

Tech_Greek

Nope, both sets of butterflys work on mine, you have to set the secondary up to a vacuum source.

Aaron Cake

iTrader: (1)

While the progressive opening still works on the throttle body, the manifold merges all ports into one so it is effectively killed. .

Tech_Greek

The weird thing is I've been looking at other supercharger kits and they seem to do the same thing, ex the should have been SVO Thunderbird - had a flat manifold on top that is one huge runner I guess you could say.

NZConvertible

I still don't get how that causes a high idle though. The lack of BAC shouldn't make any difference since adding one could only raise idle, not lower it. And the crappy port design should only have an affect at higher revs, not at the tiny idle airflow levels. With the thermowax and its linkage removed, and the primary throttle stop screw wound right out, the only way air can enter the engine is through the tiny hole in the primary throttle plate. I can't believe that hole is enough for an idle that high. Seems damn strange to me...

The stock UIM's are internally divided so that the primary throttle only feeds the primary ports and the secondary throttles (which start to open later) only feed the secondary ports. This means at light load only the primary ports flow, increasing port velocity. This results in better air/fuel mixing and greater combustion efficiency. The Camden manifold is not internally divided so both the primary and secondary throttles feed all four ports, meaning the TB's sequential operation has no effect. This is a downside of any intake system that replaces the stock TB and/or UIM.

That's because most engines only have a single-bore TB to start with, so there's effectively no difference. Mazda obviously found there were advantages to sequential port opening on rotary engines because they've used it from the first 4-barrel Nikki carbs through to all their EFI rotaries including today's RX-8.

So do you have the thermowax?

Aaron Cake

iTrader: (1)

I think it's mainly the extra drag caused by the supercharger. SonicRat has experience with these kits where I don't have any first hand, so maybe he'll chime in with the rest.