Rear Subframe Bushings & Spherical Arm Bearings - Confused
12-22-09, 12:59 AM
#1
Rear Subframe Bushings & Spherical Arm Bearings - Confused
Alright,
So I was taking apart my subframe today, I ordered DTSS eliminators, and also happened to order a set of delrin rear control arm bushings.
I want to be able to adjust camber to have both sides even in the future, just to be able to have stock-like camber nothing extreme. I did some searching and from what I understood, if you run delrin/solid control arm bushings, you can't run camber adjusters.
I saw some members saying if you run the spherical control arm bearings (like what MMR has), you can adjust camber, but I am confused. Do these spherical bearings take the place of the delrin bushings I just ordered? I'm confused on this one.
Do you guys think if I use the delrin bushings for the control arms they will serve me good enough to keep the car close to stock camber, or would it be better to get the spherical bearings with individual camber adjusters?
By the way, I will also be running solid diff/subframe mounts on this (if you haven't already seen my build thread).
So I was taking apart my subframe today, I ordered DTSS eliminators, and also happened to order a set of delrin rear control arm bushings.
I want to be able to adjust camber to have both sides even in the future, just to be able to have stock-like camber nothing extreme. I did some searching and from what I understood, if you run delrin/solid control arm bushings, you can't run camber adjusters.
I saw some members saying if you run the spherical control arm bearings (like what MMR has), you can adjust camber, but I am confused. Do these spherical bearings take the place of the delrin bushings I just ordered? I'm confused on this one.
Do you guys think if I use the delrin bushings for the control arms they will serve me good enough to keep the car close to stock camber, or would it be better to get the spherical bearings with individual camber adjusters?
By the way, I will also be running solid diff/subframe mounts on this (if you haven't already seen my build thread).
12-22-09, 02:56 PM
#3
I saw some members saying if you run the spherical control arm bearings (like what MMR has), you can adjust camber, but I am confused. Do these spherical bearings take the place of the delrin bushings I just ordered?
Do you guys think if I use the delrin bushings for the control arms they will serve me good enough to keep the car close to stock camber, or would it be better to get the spherical bearings with individual camber adjusters?
By the way, I will also be running solid diff/subframe mounts on this (if you haven't already seen my build thread).
By the way, I will also be running solid diff/subframe mounts on this (if you haven't already seen my build thread).
Similarly if you run a solid trailing arm bushing you cannot use the individual camber adjusters because they rely on some flex (or ability to pivot) at the rear control arm.
Best bet is to run the stock rubber bushings in the control arms, or spherical bearings, and the individual camber adjusters.
12-22-09, 03:27 PM
#4
Ahhh, got you. One more thing, let's say I did run the solid rear lower control arm bushings, and solid subframe, dtss, diffmount. Would this most likely end up leaving me at stock camber (no coilover or dropped height on chassis) once I put everything together or would it still be best to just get the spherical bearings on the control arms and the camber adjusters?
I feel like I should of not ordered those rear control arm lower delrin bushings now.....
I feel like I should of not ordered those rear control arm lower delrin bushings now.....
12-22-09, 03:33 PM
#5
Ahhh, got you. One more thing, let's say I did run the solid rear lower control arm bushings, and solid subframe, dtss, diffmount. Would this most likely end up leaving me at stock camber (no coilover or dropped height on chassis) once I put everything together or would it still be best to just get the spherical bearings on the control arms and the camber adjusters?
I feel like I should of not ordered those rear control arm lower delrin bushings now.....
I feel like I should of not ordered those rear control arm lower delrin bushings now.....
12-23-09, 12:25 AM
#6
Im revamping my whole rear end as we speak, I have the MMR individual camber links, and UHWT driveline bushing set (w/ thin rubber spacers for the diff mounts to help isolate vibration). I'm leaving the stock bushings in for both the subframe and the RLCA's because
A) They allow use of the individual camber adjusters...
B) They are rarely the source of any handling problems...
C) Spherical bearings seem like another maintainance item to worry about...
D) In case I want to run a single camber adjuster instead (or in addition to) I will have that option. (I've heard that some people use the single link for rough adjustment and use the individual links to balance it out)
12-23-09, 04:39 AM
#7
Thanks for the replies everyone, it's cleared up my confusion! 
(UHWT, I haven't heard of that/them before?)
This really helps me re-think about what I should do about the rear suspension. The reason I got the solid diff/subframe/dtss/RLCA bushings was because I want something that I can just put in there and not worry about it down the road later.
If the spherical bearings are going to be another maintanance item, I think I might skip out those. How often do people end up replacing spherical bearing control arm bearings by the way?
Also, on the rear control arms, there is a spherical bearing that hooks up to the hub at the top. With the DTSS bushing going solid, will these be ok in the long run, I didn't see anyone that sells replacements for these, but I would think with the DTSS being solid now, these will hardly get used at all so maybe they will be fine for a long time?
And now I am wondering, why would they sell the solid control arm bushings in the first place? I get that they will stiffen things up, but they are just going to pretty much limit what you can do to adjust your suspension anyways from what it understand...
...UHWT driveline bushing set (w/ thin rubber spacers for the diff mounts to help isolate vibration). I'm leaving the stock bushings in for both the subframe and the RLCA's because
A) They allow use of the individual camber adjusters...
B) They are rarely the source of any handling problems...
C) Spherical bearings seem like another maintainance item to worry about...
D) In case I want to run a single camber adjuster instead (or in addition to) I will have that option. (I've heard that some people use the single link for rough adjustment and use the individual links to balance it out)
A) They allow use of the individual camber adjusters...
B) They are rarely the source of any handling problems...
C) Spherical bearings seem like another maintainance item to worry about...
D) In case I want to run a single camber adjuster instead (or in addition to) I will have that option. (I've heard that some people use the single link for rough adjustment and use the individual links to balance it out)
This really helps me re-think about what I should do about the rear suspension. The reason I got the solid diff/subframe/dtss/RLCA bushings was because I want something that I can just put in there and not worry about it down the road later.
If the spherical bearings are going to be another maintanance item, I think I might skip out those. How often do people end up replacing spherical bearing control arm bearings by the way?
Also, on the rear control arms, there is a spherical bearing that hooks up to the hub at the top. With the DTSS bushing going solid, will these be ok in the long run, I didn't see anyone that sells replacements for these, but I would think with the DTSS being solid now, these will hardly get used at all so maybe they will be fine for a long time?
And now I am wondering, why would they sell the solid control arm bushings in the first place? I get that they will stiffen things up, but they are just going to pretty much limit what you can do to adjust your suspension anyways from what it understand...
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12-23-09, 06:35 PM
#8
Thanks for the replies everyone, it's cleared up my confusion!
(UHWT, I haven't heard of that/them before?)
This really helps me re-think about what I should do about the rear suspension. The reason I got the solid diff/subframe/dtss/RLCA bushings was because I want something that I can just put in there and not worry about it down the road later.
If the spherical bearings are going to be another maintanance item, I think I might skip out those. How often do people end up replacing spherical bearing control arm bearings by the way?
Also, on the rear control arms, there is a spherical bearing that hooks up to the hub at the top. With the DTSS bushing going solid, will these be ok in the long run, I didn't see anyone that sells replacements for these, but I would think with the DTSS being solid now, these will hardly get used at all so maybe they will be fine for a long time?
And now I am wondering, why would they sell the solid control arm bushings in the first place? I get that they will stiffen things up, but they are just going to pretty much limit what you can do to adjust your suspension anyways from what it understand...
(UHWT, I haven't heard of that/them before?)
This really helps me re-think about what I should do about the rear suspension. The reason I got the solid diff/subframe/dtss/RLCA bushings was because I want something that I can just put in there and not worry about it down the road later.
If the spherical bearings are going to be another maintanance item, I think I might skip out those. How often do people end up replacing spherical bearing control arm bearings by the way?
Also, on the rear control arms, there is a spherical bearing that hooks up to the hub at the top. With the DTSS bushing going solid, will these be ok in the long run, I didn't see anyone that sells replacements for these, but I would think with the DTSS being solid now, these will hardly get used at all so maybe they will be fine for a long time?
And now I am wondering, why would they sell the solid control arm bushings in the first place? I get that they will stiffen things up, but they are just going to pretty much limit what you can do to adjust your suspension anyways from what it understand...
Basically, get the spherical rear arm bearings, individual camber adjusters and be done with it. You don't need the center camber link at all with that setup, and you can't use it anyway because you have solid subframe bushings.
12-23-09, 07:57 PM
#9
He means UHMW - ultra high molecular weight plastic. Similar to delrin but with no self lubrication properties. Spherical bearings are no more of a maintenence item than delrin. They both can eventually wear out when used as suspension pivot bushings. The rear suspension in these cars binds easily. Using the factory rubber RCA bushings with individual camber adjusters will cause more suspension resistance, if not binding. The soild subframe, diff, and DTSS bushings will last forever. The rest of the bearings in the hub should be fine as well if they are still in decent shape.
Basically, get the spherical rear arm bearings, individual camber adjusters and be done with it. You don't need the center camber link at all with that setup, and you can't use it anyway because you have solid subframe bushings.
Basically, get the spherical rear arm bearings, individual camber adjusters and be done with it. You don't need the center camber link at all with that setup, and you can't use it anyway because you have solid subframe bushings.
I had some more time to think about the suspension setup this morning, the only thing that was stopping me from getting the spherical control arm bearings were the maintenance issue, but you've help me reassure my doubts.
I will be going with the spherical bearings and individual camber adjusters.
By the way one more thing
Does the stock toe adjustment work with those spherical bearings or will I also have to end up getting those hemi-joint toe adjusters like AWR sells? Just want to make sure I have everything so I can continue the build...
You guys have been helping me a lot, thanks!
12-23-09, 08:33 PM
#10
Thanks for the reply,
I had some more time to think about the suspension setup this morning, the only thing that was stopping me from getting the spherical control arm bearings were the maintenance issue, but you've help me reassure my doubts.
I will be going with the spherical bearings and individual camber adjusters.
By the way one more thing
Does the stock toe adjustment work with those spherical bearings or will I also have to end up getting those hemi-joint toe adjusters like AWR sells? Just want to make sure I have everything so I can continue the build...
You guys have been helping me a lot, thanks!
I had some more time to think about the suspension setup this morning, the only thing that was stopping me from getting the spherical control arm bearings were the maintenance issue, but you've help me reassure my doubts.
I will be going with the spherical bearings and individual camber adjusters.
By the way one more thing
Does the stock toe adjustment work with those spherical bearings or will I also have to end up getting those hemi-joint toe adjusters like AWR sells? Just want to make sure I have everything so I can continue the build...
You guys have been helping me a lot, thanks!
You should not need the AWR style toe adjusters. I know the AWR rear LCA bearing retains the factory eccentric adjustability, and I believe the MMR does as well. I went with the MMR (it is in the mail), and it looks like it will retain the factory eccentric bolt to adjust toe as well.
12-23-09, 08:38 PM
#11
You should not need the AWR style toe adjusters. I know the AWR rear LCA bearing retains the factory eccentric adjustability, and I believe the MMR does as well. I went with the MMR (it is in the mail), and it looks like it will retain the factory eccentric bolt to adjust toe as well.
09-13-10, 04:23 AM
#12
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Did you ever check to see what your rear camber was with all solid mounts? I have a full set of delrins I haven't installed yet and would like to know if i should just sell my rear control arm ones now and buy spherical bearings instead? I got mine in a set with the front delrin LCA bushings I bought so its not like I had much of a choice since they all came in a set.
09-13-10, 09:47 AM
#13
No, I was curious about what it would be also. EDIT: I am running the spherical bushings now with no camber adjusters since I snapped my last adjusters during an autocross. I was thinking about running the solid LCA bushings on the rear, but also was curious as to the camber. It should be very close to stock if everything in the rear-subframe is on par.
I am suspecting the spherical bearing/bushings may be giving me some problems but I haven't had time to inspect. Only get occasional clunk if I hit hard bumps. May be something else.
I am suspecting the spherical bearing/bushings may be giving me some problems but I haven't had time to inspect. Only get occasional clunk if I hit hard bumps. May be something else.
09-13-10, 02:28 PM
#16
Need a picture in this thread, I'm getting confused. Feel free to mark up what your thinking...
The spherical rear arm bearings are where the toe cam bolt is, and the adjusters are the trailing arm control links near the center of the subframe.
When you shorten the control links (not sublink) it 'rotates' the trailing arm straightening out the wheel (adds camber), but puts stress on the other trailing arm mount (toe in adjusting cam). Is this correct?
The spherical rear arm bearings are where the toe cam bolt is, and the adjusters are the trailing arm control links near the center of the subframe.
When you shorten the control links (not sublink) it 'rotates' the trailing arm straightening out the wheel (adds camber), but puts stress on the other trailing arm mount (toe in adjusting cam). Is this correct?
09-13-10, 03:40 PM
#18
Are you sure? Because you need the toe bushing (control arm bushing) to be able to pivot. You will basically have a suspension that is truly solid and can't pivot with that setup. TC-sportline rear camber link, not familiar, but if it's the single dogbone (sublink) style one, you need the SUBFRAME bushings to pivot. If it's the individual adjusters, you need the control arm to pivot.
09-14-10, 02:23 AM
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I see something. If the subframe spacers aren't solid it could pivot on them right? I have solid mounts and now looking at the pic I will have to buy the spacers to right? If so ugg just another thing to get.....
pic of solid bushings.
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The individual camber adjusters are not a standard feature we have solid links from the factory which I circled in what was supposed to be red. The spacers are in Blue. I was wondering what geometry the lateral links control and/or why they don't make adjustable ones.
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pic of solid bushings.
Uploaded with ImageShack.us
The individual camber adjusters are not a standard feature we have solid links from the factory which I circled in what was supposed to be red. The spacers are in Blue. I was wondering what geometry the lateral links control and/or why they don't make adjustable ones.
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Last edited by anarchyb52; 09-14-10 at 02:48 AM.
09-16-10, 02:20 AM
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Good deal. The pic makes the spacers look like hats that set on the bushing. I haven't got to taking the thing off yet so I didn't know. The fact that it is a "spacer" makes it sound like it changes the height of the sub frame also that's why I was asking.