Rear Spoiler, LSD, 4 Pot Calipers - Ever on "base" model?
 

I have read the FAQ sticky. Just want to confirm 110% I have this right. It has to do with some NASA racing rules.


Did the following items EVER come STANDARD (Not an Option) on ANY Naturally Aspirated 1986 - 1991 RX7?


- LSD (not on base from my research)
- 4 Pot Calipers (not on base from my research)
- Rear Spoiler (research not conclusive)

...........
 

The GXL model had 5-lugs, 4 piston calipers and an LSD rear end. Oh And a spoiler. I tnink the GTU did too but I'm not positive on that.

You could also walk into a dealer and custom order a car if you pre pay. So someone could of had a base with those added special build order.

People do that now here in town with our new Tundra factory (lot of pre orders).

The GXL model was not a base model.

The key here is that did ANY of the above 3 listed items come STANDARD on a N/A RX7 in any year 1986-1991?

NASA "....the term OEM will be defined as follows: Any part that is identical in size, shape, and functional characteristics compared to the part that originally came on the vehicle, from the manufacturer, as a standard feature of the base model as it is listed in section 5.2 Base Classifications (factory options and specialty model parts are considered non-OEM)..."

by what you quoted, the only thing stadard would be the spoiler on the GTU year cars.
the LSD and 4 pot brakes were higher trim levels

GXLs had all of the above.

no.
but the S4 sport was a base model w/ 4-pots and a spoiler / aero parts but NO lsd.

thats good to know I have a s4 sport and havent got around to pulling the brakes to see if they were 4 pots or not

I'm looking at update/backdate rules for NASA TT......can you use those rules to put 4-pots, LSD and spoilers? After all, all FC RX-7's are in the same "base" class.

You can try and lobby Greg with NASA the PT/TT director. I just got done fighting for the 5th/6th port actuator, rod and sleeve removal for 0 points and VDI wired open for 0 points. I am sure he doesn't want another fight from me right now :)

In my reading of the rules, the LSD, spoiler and 4 pots all require points.

From the PT rules (which I think TT are the same)

"All factory options and other modifications by the factory that are not included in the basic trim package of a model (or in the non-basic trim package specifically listed below in 5.2 to assign a PT base class), must be assessed modification points as in Section 5.3."

Cite the rule that you think we can use to put on 4 pots, LSD and factory spoiler with no point hit. It works for SCCA IT but not NASA PT/TT.

I think TT rules are same as PT, therefore would disagree with the above. The Turbo II is classed differently.

RX-7 13B PTE 2800lbs
RX-7 Turbo II PTD 2775lbs

Correct me if im wrong, but my understanding is that in 89 the GTU became the base model and came with 4 piston brakes, LSD and a spoiler.

Not according to this....https://www.rx7club.com/showpost.php...27&postcount=6

GTU, GXL, Turbo, Vert, GTUs models...

GTU was base model.

LSD - Turbo, GTUs
4 pots - GXL, Turbo, Vert, GTUs
Spoiler - ?

Base models varied per year.

In 86 and 87 the Base model was just that. It was just called the RX-7 and came with 4 lug wheels single piston brakes, no aero, no LSD.

In 88 the base model was the RX-7 SE. It also came with 4 lug wheels single piston brakes, no aero, no LSD.

Then in 89-90 the base model was the RX-7 GTU. It jumped up to 5 lug wheels but was still single piston brakes, did have a rear spoiler, but still no LSD.

In 91 the base model was called just the RX-7 Coupe, and it could be ordered with factory installed A or B packages as options and those packages added the 4 piston front brakes and vented rear brakes. All came with a rear spoiler, but none came with a LSD (except the Turbo- but we were not talking about Turbos).

So maybe that will help further.

If you have a 86 or 87 technically the car could be gotten as a Base model RX-7 with the Sport Package, which would give you the 4 piston front brakes, vented rear brakes, and aero package, but you still didn't get the LSD. This model is referred to here (and around the internet) as the Sport, but the factory window sticker referred to the model as a GS (which was a factory sport package equipped FB model as well). In Canada the Sport was called the GS.

This sticky thread will give you a break down of the models and what they came with: https://www.rx7club.com/2nd-generation-specific-1986-1992-17/specifications-what-did-2nd-generation-rx-7-come-w-options-standard-features-642372/

Thanks Icemark!

So, the rear spoiler from the 89-90 GTU is acceptable to use as "OEM" and recieve no points. The 91 spoiler from the coupe can also be used, without point hit.

The LSD was always an option, point hit applies.

The 4 pots were not on the "base model" but rather available on higher trim levels or as an "option", point hit applies.

I understand the point hit for LSD but having to take points for the 4 pots is kind of crap, any NASA racers find a way not to (without cheating :) )?

What about the 88 GTU model? It was very similar to the Sport but came with TII seats and the LSD from the GXL model. It also had the 4pot brakes, spoiler and similar interior to the base model.

As for the spoiler, would the 86-87 Sport "duckbill" spoiler require points?
It's rumored to be the only RX spoiler to actually reduce drag.

I see what you're saying.....whoops, I misinterpreted the rules.

With spoiler, you can backdate any other spoiler now without point hit. I think that's how the backdating rule goes, since any RX-7 shares the same base classification.

EDIT: I meant the NA's.

I would say take the hit for the LSD, and try running single piston, non-vented rear brakes with a suitable pad and see how it runs.

Too bad we can't interchange coupe and vert parts and claim the vert as a base.

The '88 GTU was not the base model. The SE was the base model and didn't have 4 pots or spoiler.
https://www.rx7club.com/showpost.php...23&postcount=5

The 86-87 "duckbill" spoiler was not on the base model. :(

I'm not sure about using any other NA spoiler, you might want to check with Greg. I don't run a spoiler so am not concerned with that one.

Rotors are open, so it doesn't matter if you use vented, non vented, slotted, drilled or even two piece. I think you meant to say single piston on the front? The rears all have single piston and do fine. It's the fronts you need the 4 pots on and for 2 points is worth it to me.

Well the rotor and brake pad size on the 90 and 91 single piston was the same as the 4 piston, so you might try see if the single piston front brakes work or if you get uneven wear.

My head's screwed up today.

Yup, I meant to say single piston fronts with a high-temp pad......with a very light car, are the 4 pistons really a must? I've seen others track single piston cars before, but I never looked at their results.

yeah, who was the with the bright yellow S4 ITS car a couple years back?... he was running single piston front and rear with no issues.

Mark, didn't you used to drive around a track with a race-prepped FC? Did you ever do IT racing? If not, apologies, but for some reason I get that feeling, maybe it was from all of the DTSS discussions.

RE: Sport Spoilers, can't do it, I missed a sentence again.

"Updating or Backdating without a points assessment with specialty models or between two cars that have model names with different numbers or letters in them is prohibited."

This leads to some confusion, as I want to backdate the GSL-SE transmission into the FC's. To the best of my knowledge, during 84-85 there were two models offered, the GSL with the 12A and the GSL-SE with the 13B. I'm interepreting the base classification as the GSL-SE's were the 13B base models of 84-85 and thus, elgible for backdating. But that goes against the "between two cars that have model names with different numbers or letters in them is prohibited." But, if that was the case, then we wouldn't be able to backdate base models from the S4 with GTU models from the S5.

That being said, I see it this way:

13B base models over the years:
84-85 GSL-SE
86-87 Base
88 SE
89-90 GTU
91 Coupe

Thus, I stand by my interpretation that we can use GSL-SE parts to the extent that the up/back rule allows. Anyone agree?

(I sent an e-mail to Greg, awaiting his response)

No, don't agree and here's why. The RX-7 13B GSL-SE (1st Gen) is listed on the classification list as such in PTF** at 2512. It's like trying to put a Turbo II tranny in.

Complete RX-7 listings....

Mazda RX-7 12A PTG** 2345
Mazda RX-7 13B PTE 2800
Mazda RX-7 13B GSL-SE (1st Gen) PTF** 2512
Mazda RX-7 TT PTC** 2826
Mazda RX-7 Turbo II PTD 2775

The ** are on purpose. One (1) * is +7pts initial assessment, two (2) ** are +14 pts initial assessment. I was helping some 1st Gens the other day class theirs and they forget the ** +14.

What you can update/backdate is S4/S5 parts so long as they are on the base model without points hit. This might include the base model spoiler 89-91 as concluded above, S5 bumpers on the S4, S5 intake on an S4 motor, S5 rotors in an S4 motor, etc. I don't think there are any S4 parts someone would want to put on an S5, but there are some S5 parts which are perfectly legal as no point hits to put on an S4.

Here's a point hit many might miss, the .756 5th gear from the GTUs. That's a 3 point hit for altered tranny gears as that ratio is not on the base model.

Get a GTUs. It's what you want. No Sunroof, 4 pot brakes, 4.3LSD, 5 lug, T-II wheels, etc.

How does that help? Just a more expensive than necessary roller to build from. You still have to take points for 4 pot, LSD.... 5 lug is no point hit, neither is sunroof and no one is going to run T-II wheels. The 4.30 is not a big deal as the better cars will run a custom 5.12 diff - no point hit for final drive ratio, and if there was the 4.30 was not on the base model so you'd be stuck with a 4.10 or taking points.

No, you're right, I missed that line completely, I think I need to get my eyes checked.

I sent an e-mail to Gary requesting an exemption for the GTUs tranny, but now my argument doesn't hold water since I missed the GSL-SE line.

I guess for now, the tranny to get is any 1986 5-Speed per the OEM rule. Good thing the PT/TT rules are the same, makes it easy to build a TTD/PTD car. I'm hoping to get close to 200 whp with 2650 minimum weight in D-class, that should put me well ahead of the common D class car. I'm going to experiment with the front single piston setup......let's hope I don't die.

One thing that sucks about the porting rule. If I found someone who knows how to streetport very well, and can clear 220 whp with an aftermarket manifold, I have to discuss that with the TT director and ask for a re-class? I said screw it, I'm not bothering with porting then. Heck anything over 180 hp is a reclass on a streetport. I know guys making 190 whp on a stock port, rebalanced engine for crying out loud! The porting rule needs to change.

I've heard a rumor of someone having a 5.35 R&P gear in the NE....must find that gearset.

The post 2 above mine is a fine example of posting when not understanding the context of the thread. That kind of stuff needs to be cut down on. Though, it's nice to see that you're starting off with 8 points if you decide to run a GTUs.

3 for tranny
2 for 4-pot calipers
3 for VLSD

Actually, I just thought of something. Via the update/backdate same or lower class rule for donor cars, can't you use the GSL-SE transmission, anyway? If not, the GSL-SE, then possibly the GSL which was the base of the 84-85 years? We all share the same model name, though the extra letters caveat may apply here. Goddamn confusing rules.

Do you know of any lightweight (~10 lbs) 15 x 8 wheels? Looking to run 225 R6's (And get 1 point back!), and wouldn't mind hearing a few recommendations on wheels.

Calm down buddy. I'm not familiar with how the classing sytem works. I consider my GTUs pretty close to a base model. It's got what it seemed ike you were looking to put ona true base, so if it's classed the same why not get one and save youself the work?

Since when does the GTUs have a .756 5th gear?
On the Dealer page it says it has the same .697 as the other N/A's
Is that wrong?

yup, if you'll notice, (and I can vouch, since I have a GTUs)

3000 rpm in 5th gear is ~70 mph, due to the combination of the .756 and the 4.3 rear end. If it was just due to the 4.3 rear end, you'd be seeing 80 mph at 3250. Instead, you see it at 3500 mph.

On other NA's, 3000 rpm in 5th gear is 80 mph.

Mazdatrix lists ratios on their website. The GTUs is the only member of the NA 89-92 w/ LSD group. (Officially)

In NASA TT or PT racing, you automatically incur 8 penalty points for using a GTUs. Sucks, doesn't it?

I made of bunch of edits to this and my previous post, so if you'd like, feel free to read through for some answers to other questions you may be having.

Well Thanks for teaching me something new about my GTUs. I always thought it was .697 because thats what the dealer sheet in the FAQ says.

Also sorry if I ruined your buddy's serious racing thread here.

meh, it happens.

What you should do is look into STS2 Autocross from SCCA, as I think that's where the GTUs is most advantageous.

Thats what I'm up to:)

I just got my GTUs with a bad engine last month and should have a re-man in it by the end of the month.
Theres a group aroudn here that does an autoX without any classing. You just pay and go. It's fun if you're not super competitive and don't have a lot of money. I'm just getting into this and I don't have a lot of money or knowledge yet. I'll learn a whole bunch this summer I'm sure.
The only mods the car will have are R-comps on whatever lightweight 15x7 or 15x8 wheels I can find for a decent price, Pineapple aux port sleeves, and an exhaust.

Couple comments...

You mean Greg, I hope :)

200rwhp in D? Don't think it can even be done in C. As you stated any SP over 180rwhp is a dyno re-class - so, not worth it. I know a guy who did an SP on and FC and at 2550lbs he barely ended up in PTB (re-classed) with 196rwhp, that is with the rest of the car being normal ITS stuff. Greg doesn't like rotary motors, or at least what I gathered in numerous emails with them. He has stated he'd like all rotary motors to be classed by dyno which I strongly disagreed with. Furthermore, he thinks it "easy to cheat" with a rotary motor. 190rwhp on stock port is insane, we both know the best ITS cars make 180rwhp. I won't say what I am at but am very happy with my current rwhp and still have some type of engine management to do rather than an FPR. I'd be curious to see your point breakdown, PM me and I'll send you what I have for points, right at PTC limits.

Greg tried to say dyno classing for wiring the VDI open and removing 5th/6th rods and sleeves. I fought and won, no points for this with a technical bulletin coming. There will be dyno classing if you modify the 5th/6th ports with Pineapple sleeves or whatever, don't go there. Can't even ceramic coat stuff like the intake, it's considered modification and takes points.

I am still on 15x7 wheels and will probably stay there. Want to reduce unsprung weight? AWR 2 piece rotors, no point hit.

Clearly the .756 5th gear for 3 points is not worth it, but are the Miata gears? That's the joy of PT, user has to decide. With only so many mods available to to the engine, suspension, drivetrain, it really boils down to weight. Every 1 pt you can think of as 15lbs more that you could remove.


Molotovman - no offense, it wasn't personal. Just didn't make sense why a GTUs was the car to have for IT or PT racing. Join in these type threads, lots to learn.

No the only IT car I did was a RA64 Celica on the track, although I did occasionally run my old 87 sport in auto X back in the early 90's down at San Diego (now Qualcomm) stadium.

the .7111 5th gear in the 86-87 base and 88 vert would probably be close enough... I doubt many would notice the difference between the .711 and the .756

Lol, as you can see, I really am out of it today. I'll send you my point break out in a bit. I know an ITS car fully legit making 189.2 whp.

Did any of the base models ever come officially with the aluminum hood, standard?

Wait...........what was the base model for 1992? Was it the convertible?????? Hey.....doesn't that mean 4-pots and alu hood? Or does the year not matter?

I wonder if we have to assess points for the AWR 2-piece rotors, since they require the spindle to be machined for installation.

Rotors are the same between the 4 piston and single piston 5 lug calipers, right?

if they were automatics they may have had an aluminum hood but I doubt it, for cost reasons, the base models were dirt cheap, I dont think they'd slap on an aluminum hood at the factory for the cheap-o model.

some cars with 4-piston front brakes also had VENTED REAR rotors, others had solid rear rotors.

I seriously doubt the vert was the base model for 1992.

Since the vert was the only model offered in 1992, you could make that leap.

I guess it doesn't matter if some came with aluminum hoods, as long as Mazda officially says that the cars can come with just steel or with either aluminum or steel on the base model. If it's the former, than boo, if it's the latter, than yay! Can anyone verify Mazda's official stance?

Damn, none of the base models ever came with vented rotors, right?

why's it matter? rotors are 100% free, put on whatever you want, even 2 piece for 0 points.

that sucks...i thought the verts came with the lsd...boo

Calipers are different between the two different rotor types.....stupid non-OE base caliper rule.

Maybe I'm confused here. Are you saying there are 2 types of rear single piston calipers? One using vented rotors and one using solid rotors? The vented rotor caliper not ever being on the base model? Meaning we have to use solid rotors to meet the rule? Is that where this is going....

Yup

But, as I interpret it, since you're already using the 4-piston caliper......you've already taken the point hit.

As for me, looks like AWR's in the front and OEM replacements in the rear, running Blues or HT-10's.

Huh. Missed that one! I was keeping 4 pots anyways.

Now I just need to find someone to make me a ring gear with 52 teeth, a pinion gear with 9 teeth, and have it fit in the 2nd gen rearend to mate to my 86 transmission.

SCCAITS, what do you think of the 92 Base model interpretation?

Brings up a good point. According to the sticky FAQ on this site, 1992 was Vert only, therefore it has to be the base model as that was the only model offered. There are no stats on FAQ about the 1992, more research would need to be done.

On the 1991 vert, 4 pots and ventilated discs were standard. I wouldn't suppose they changed that in 1992. I don't know about the aluminum hood.

From Wikipedia, "Despite production ceasing in October 1991, Mazda built a limited run of 500 convertibles for 1992 as "specials" for the domestic market only."

Quick glance at the CCR did not show any exclusion to this, as it was a domestic market car. The 1992 vert is the RX-7 13b, it was the base model, it was for the domestic market. What it came with should be considered OEM according to the rules, and therfore not subject to point hit.

Gather up your proof of what the 1992 came with and I think you have a good case for no points on brakes and the hood and ?

SWEET!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

4-pots, aluminum hood, and a bunch of other stuff is useable now, guess I'm using the AWR all the way now.

I wonder if anyone has brochures for 1992 Verts.

I think this is a job for Icemark. ;)

92 verts were all Turbo in Japan. All came with alum hoods and 4 pot front brakes, and vented rear brakes but didn't come with a LSD. (LSD were optional in Japan).