racing question
01-28-04, 01:13 AM
#51
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Originally posted by Howi
sigh... call the honda whatever you want. the truth remains that they are incredibly fast cars on circuit tracks. But you don't care anyways, because you have a 7 and it's a "real sports car." According to your logic, it doesn't matter if a civic whips your *** on the race track, because you have a "real sports car," and your mind can justify that it was actually you who had won, right?
howi
sigh... call the honda whatever you want. the truth remains that they are incredibly fast cars on circuit tracks. But you don't care anyways, because you have a 7 and it's a "real sports car." According to your logic, it doesn't matter if a civic whips your *** on the race track, because you have a "real sports car," and your mind can justify that it was actually you who had won, right?
howi
Yes, the hoda can be an incredibly fast circuit car, but the FASTEST circuit cars are still RWD, are they not?
01-28-04, 01:20 AM
#52
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regardless of if the engine is turned around and moved closer to the firewall, it still restricts the ability to work on it. Never said it cant be done, of course it can, anything can with money, but with (at a bare minumum) obnoxious repercussions if you want to remove manifolds, or even worse, turbochargers.
Pulling the Ebrake during a turn does not = oversteer, nor does punching the breaks on a dirt course to get the rear come out.
However you put it, e-brake, brake, grip- conditions, fact is that the rear end will come out easier on a car if more weight is shifted to the front.
Howi
01-28-04, 01:26 AM
#53
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Not a flame, but a question/comment.
Yes, the hoda can be an incredibly fast circuit car, but the FASTEST circuit cars are still RWD, are they not?
Yes, the hoda can be an incredibly fast circuit car, but the FASTEST circuit cars are still RWD, are they not?
yes they are, and i absolutely agree that RWD is the ****. why do you think i ditched my civic and bought a 7?
i just think it is pretty sad that there are 7 owners out there who believe that they can't be beaten by an economy car, even after they've been beaten. don't you think it's sad too?
howi
01-28-04, 01:32 AM
#54
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Originally posted by Howi
no flame taken
yes they are, and i absolutely agree that RWD is the ****. why do you think i ditched my civic and bought a 7?
i just think it is pretty sad that there are 7 owners out there who believe that they can't be beaten by an economy car, even after they've been beaten. don't you think it's sad too?
howi
no flame taken
yes they are, and i absolutely agree that RWD is the ****. why do you think i ditched my civic and bought a 7?
i just think it is pretty sad that there are 7 owners out there who believe that they can't be beaten by an economy car, even after they've been beaten. don't you think it's sad too?
howi
I mean, you can't imagine the crap people get on my old web haunts when they switch from a big american V8 to a "little" import or "ricer". I can't even imagine what they're gonna say when I tell them I got myself a little 1.3 liter mazda
And it's just going to get worse when I tell them how much more fun I'm having, and how much more I enjoy the 7 on so many levels over my old car!
01-28-04, 01:50 AM
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yes additional weight over front wheels will make the car faster, in a straight line. Vector diagrams mean nothing unless you take into account every aspect of what you are analyzing, its unfortuante but true. As you said before there are many variables which you have left out, were not talking about putting a bucket full of water on a string and swinging it in a circle, we are talking about a complex body in which you have to take into account shock bound/rebound, force from the sway bars, vectors altered and force lost to chassis felx, road impurities just to name a few, which verges on impossibility.
Your thinking and mathematics are flawed, by assuming that frictional force and centrifugal force increase and deacrease together you assume that the frictional force is uniform on all 4 tires all the time, which (once again) hopefully we know this to not be true, as you can see when a car takes a hard turn and body rolls the the outside of the car squats, while the inside lifts. Which leads to my saying that centrifugal force DECREASES the mass OVER THE FRICTIONAL AREA (note: i did not say the mass goes away, it is MOVED) with a large portion of it being transfered to the outside suspension. (ever seen an SUV flip? or a car pick up a wheel on a sharp autoX turn? not too much weight over that frictional surface eh? according to your line of thinking that centrifugal force cannot cause a decrease in weight over the friction surface, this is not possible, but reality speaks for itself)
PLease see explaination of function of a sway bar in my previous post
If you truly believe that a front sway bar helps increase traction on the rear wheels of a car, i suggest you attempt to find a hardcore drag racer that has a front sway bar in their car, becuase they typically dont. Why? because the REAR sway bar tightens up the suspension and increases traction in the rear, the front does so for the front.
Look im not trying to be a dick, but you cant simply pluck the formulas out of your physics book and think you can apply them to any situation, because it is just not true. If we are talking about a high speed particle in space that has its velocity changed by the gravity of a nearby star, its a different story, but we are not, we are talking about something far more complex. Im not saying i konw everything about these processes, i take reality and reason from there. Front heavy FWD cars(espeically in higher torque applications) throttle and brake understeer unless their suspension/brake system has undergone adjustment. Argue me all you want, but your reasoning cannot change facts, its that simple.
As for the ebrake, well...i suppose you could say it causes massive brake oversteer, but when over/understeer comes up in conversation among people discussing grip racing, its usually throttle steer that they are talking about, as it is given that (even close to)stock brakes are tuned for brake understeer a vast majority of the time.
Your thinking and mathematics are flawed, by assuming that frictional force and centrifugal force increase and deacrease together you assume that the frictional force is uniform on all 4 tires all the time, which (once again) hopefully we know this to not be true, as you can see when a car takes a hard turn and body rolls the the outside of the car squats, while the inside lifts. Which leads to my saying that centrifugal force DECREASES the mass OVER THE FRICTIONAL AREA (note: i did not say the mass goes away, it is MOVED) with a large portion of it being transfered to the outside suspension. (ever seen an SUV flip? or a car pick up a wheel on a sharp autoX turn? not too much weight over that frictional surface eh? according to your line of thinking that centrifugal force cannot cause a decrease in weight over the friction surface, this is not possible, but reality speaks for itself)
PLease see explaination of function of a sway bar in my previous post
If you truly believe that a front sway bar helps increase traction on the rear wheels of a car, i suggest you attempt to find a hardcore drag racer that has a front sway bar in their car, becuase they typically dont. Why? because the REAR sway bar tightens up the suspension and increases traction in the rear, the front does so for the front.
Look im not trying to be a dick, but you cant simply pluck the formulas out of your physics book and think you can apply them to any situation, because it is just not true. If we are talking about a high speed particle in space that has its velocity changed by the gravity of a nearby star, its a different story, but we are not, we are talking about something far more complex. Im not saying i konw everything about these processes, i take reality and reason from there. Front heavy FWD cars(espeically in higher torque applications) throttle and brake understeer unless their suspension/brake system has undergone adjustment. Argue me all you want, but your reasoning cannot change facts, its that simple.
As for the ebrake, well...i suppose you could say it causes massive brake oversteer, but when over/understeer comes up in conversation among people discussing grip racing, its usually throttle steer that they are talking about, as it is given that (even close to)stock brakes are tuned for brake understeer a vast majority of the time.
01-28-04, 01:56 AM
#57
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Originally posted by Howi
I still disagree, but it seems like we are both pretty stubborn, so I am going to give up trying to express my opinion because you do not look like you will ever be convinced. Which is fine, of course, because we are different people with different opinions.
Ok, I think this is where you are getting TOO stubborn.
However you put it, e-brake, brake, grip- conditions, fact is that the rear end will come out easier on a car if more weight is shifted to the front.
Howi
I still disagree, but it seems like we are both pretty stubborn, so I am going to give up trying to express my opinion because you do not look like you will ever be convinced. Which is fine, of course, because we are different people with different opinions.
Ok, I think this is where you are getting TOO stubborn.
However you put it, e-brake, brake, grip- conditions, fact is that the rear end will come out easier on a car if more weight is shifted to the front.
Howi
We shall agree to disagree.
ps. with a light backend and heavy front, brake oversteer is the only kind you will see, coupled with a healthy dose of throttle plow
now that duz make sense
01-28-04, 02:06 AM
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Originally posted by Howi
sigh... call the honda whatever you want. the truth remains that they are incredibly fast cars on circuit tracks. But you don't care anyways, because you have a 7 and it's a "real sports car." According to your logic, it doesn't matter if a civic whips your *** on the race track, because you have a "real sports car," and your mind can justify that it was actually you who had won, right?
howi
sigh... call the honda whatever you want. the truth remains that they are incredibly fast cars on circuit tracks. But you don't care anyways, because you have a 7 and it's a "real sports car." According to your logic, it doesn't matter if a civic whips your *** on the race track, because you have a "real sports car," and your mind can justify that it was actually you who had won, right?
howi
to flip my statement around it is even more impressive that a honda can beat a 7 because thay are at a dissadvantage from the start. to beat a 7 a honda will have to have a proportianly greater level of tuning. thats a fact. take it as you may.
01-28-04, 02:22 AM
#59
Originally posted by Howi
However you put it, e-brake, brake, grip- conditions, fact is that the rear end will come out easier on a car if more weight is shifted to the front.
However you put it, e-brake, brake, grip- conditions, fact is that the rear end will come out easier on a car if more weight is shifted to the front.
Originally posted by andrew lohaus
and let me tell you they can sling the rear out like its nobody's buisness.
and let me tell you they can sling the rear out like its nobody's buisness.
01-28-04, 10:01 AM
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[QUOTE]yeah what can i say, im pretty stubborn whem im quite sure im right, I dunno, if i feel my reasoning is solid i get worked up when other people cant see it *shrug*
We shall agree to disagree.QUOTE]
we'll do that
and we shall stay stubborn. hehehehe....
mmm.. ic... sorry about that! I may have misunderstood your tone....
howi
We shall agree to disagree.QUOTE]
we'll do that and we shall stay stubborn. hehehehe....
i wasnt saying that the honda's econobox roots would nullify any potential victory they might have. please. what i was trying to point out is that a lot of the adjustments made to hondas are to offset the fact that they are fwd and have relatively flexible chasis and soft suspension. whereas an rx7 is a prety damn complete package right out of the box. what part of the rx-7s inherent dynamics to owners try to fight. baisicaly none! we sisply try to capitalize further on the many strenghts.
howi
01-28-04, 01:38 PM
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"...as you can see when a car takes a hard turn and body rolls the the outside of the car squats, while the inside lifts. Which leads to my saying that centrifugal force DECREASES the mass OVER THE FRICTIONAL AREA (note: i did not say the mass goes away, it is MOVED) with a large portion of it being transfered to the outside suspension..... .....according to your line of thinking that centrifugal force cannot cause a decrease in weight over the friction surface, this is not possible, but reality speaks for itself)"
wow, u must have failed physics hard core. so when weight is transfered from the inside tire to the outside tire, the net weight over those 2 wheels decreases eh? so where did it go? there has to be an upward force. like when suspension compresses more on the back or front of the car. "DECREASES the mass" mass duz not decrease. plz stop saying that. "note: i did not say the mass goes away, it is MOVED)" u just said it decreased!!!!
"If you truly believe that a front sway bar helps increase traction on the rear wheels of a car, i suggest you attempt to find a hardcore drag racer that has a front sway bar in their car, becuase they typically dont. Why? because the REAR sway bar tightens up the suspension and increases traction in the rear, the front does so for the front."
sorry, i was talking about cornering. i have no idea nor do i care what a sway bar duz for a car in a straight line.
"Front heavy FWD cars(espeically in higher torque applications) throttle and brake understeer unless their suspension/brake system has undergone adjustment. Argue me all you want, but your reasoning cannot change facts, its that simple."
i never argued this. i agree 100% on this issue. throttle induced understeer on a FWD car is a huge problem. and, if u add more weight to the front, it helps diminish this problem.
wow, u must have failed physics hard core. so when weight is transfered from the inside tire to the outside tire, the net weight over those 2 wheels decreases eh? so where did it go? there has to be an upward force. like when suspension compresses more on the back or front of the car. "DECREASES the mass" mass duz not decrease. plz stop saying that. "note: i did not say the mass goes away, it is MOVED)" u just said it decreased!!!!
"If you truly believe that a front sway bar helps increase traction on the rear wheels of a car, i suggest you attempt to find a hardcore drag racer that has a front sway bar in their car, becuase they typically dont. Why? because the REAR sway bar tightens up the suspension and increases traction in the rear, the front does so for the front."
sorry, i was talking about cornering. i have no idea nor do i care what a sway bar duz for a car in a straight line.
"Front heavy FWD cars(espeically in higher torque applications) throttle and brake understeer unless their suspension/brake system has undergone adjustment. Argue me all you want, but your reasoning cannot change facts, its that simple."
i never argued this. i agree 100% on this issue. throttle induced understeer on a FWD car is a huge problem. and, if u add more weight to the front, it helps diminish this problem.
01-28-04, 02:47 PM
#63
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Originally posted by Tsunami
too much initial D for this one. 3cyl geo metro vs Z06 corvette, corvette does win 10/10.
too much initial D for this one. 3cyl geo metro vs Z06 corvette, corvette does win 10/10.
01-28-04, 03:34 PM
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Some info on the Lude Power just for some info that is.
H22A1 190hp 92-97 PRELUDE
H22A? 200hp JDM 92-96 Prelude VTEC
H22A? 202hp JDM 97-01 Prelude VTEC
H22A? 223hp JDM 97-01 Prelude Type-S
H23A1 160hp 92-96 PRELUDE
H23A4 195hp 97-98 PRELUDE
Mage
H22A1 190hp 92-97 PRELUDE
H22A? 200hp JDM 92-96 Prelude VTEC
H22A? 202hp JDM 97-01 Prelude VTEC
H22A? 223hp JDM 97-01 Prelude Type-S
H23A1 160hp 92-96 PRELUDE
H23A4 195hp 97-98 PRELUDE
Mage
01-28-04, 04:30 PM
#66
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Originally posted by oregano
wow, u must have failed physics hard core. so when weight is transfered from the inside tire to the outside tire, the net weight over those 2 wheels decreases eh? so where did it go? there has to be an upward force. like when suspension compresses more on the back or front of the car. "DECREASES the mass" mass duz not decrease. plz stop saying that. "note: i did not say the mass goes away, it is MOVED)" u just said it decreased!!!!
sorry, i was talking about cornering. i have no idea nor do i care what a sway bar duz for a car in a straight line.
i never argued this. i agree 100% on this issue. throttle induced understeer on a FWD car is a huge problem. and, if u add more weight to the front, it helps diminish this problem.
wow, u must have failed physics hard core. so when weight is transfered from the inside tire to the outside tire, the net weight over those 2 wheels decreases eh? so where did it go? there has to be an upward force. like when suspension compresses more on the back or front of the car. "DECREASES the mass" mass duz not decrease. plz stop saying that. "note: i did not say the mass goes away, it is MOVED)" u just said it decreased!!!!
sorry, i was talking about cornering. i have no idea nor do i care what a sway bar duz for a car in a straight line.
i never argued this. i agree 100% on this issue. throttle induced understeer on a FWD car is a huge problem. and, if u add more weight to the front, it helps diminish this problem.
believe it or not the sway bar's function and design do not change when the car is cornering and going in a straight line. It sounds like you have no idea nor do you care about what a sway bar does period.
Yes, if you have a NOSE HEAVY FWD CAR, throttle understeer is a primary concern, front weight (in a grip/turning situation) make more intertia for the front end, which in turn = plow. Physics theory is not on your side, nor is reality.
01-28-04, 05:01 PM
#67
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Originally posted by Tsunami
agreed, weight in front does not better the handling of a car. if this were true 50/50 weight distribution would not be a goal of any sports car manufacturers.
Weight distribution while maintaining constant (and perfect)circular velocity may not be a primary factor because there is no weight transfer, however this has no real world application. Moving mass has momentum, the more mass, the more momentum. The more mass in the front of the car when turning, the more inertia it will have and thus cause a greater force to move the front in a straightline, which will contribute to an understeer situation.
Friction and centrifugal force are inversely proportional in this example. If they were not inversely proportional then making a very hard turn would increase a cars traction, which hopefully we all know it does not. Mass increase (or in this case weight) is directly proportional to both friction and centrifugal force, but the two are not so to each other. Centrifugal force DECREASES the amount of weight (and mass, in case of body roll) over the frictional service, thus causing a loss of friction (and traction).
Addition of mass to the front of the car (or subtraction of weight from the rear) will result in both more friction and more centrifugal for the front of the car, its been stated how the attidtion of centrifugal force will contribute to an oversteer situation, but the increase in friction (or traction as it may be) will reduce the cars rotational ability (as there is less mass in the back of the car to give its centrifugal force towards the rotation of the car) and this will aid the fwd in its natural tendency to understeer. The wheels in the car do not want to turn, as the force of the car's inertia is attempting to go in a striaght line, running torque through the drive wheels only increases this tendency as the force of accelleration is further pushing it to go in a straight line. The more friction(traction) available, the more the torque is able to carry out this natural inclination, combine this with the more massive front half (and thur more inertia) and the lack of mass in the rear to aid in rotation, and you built yourself an understeer monster.
And just for kicks, heres a thought: does a beefier front anti-sway bar cause understeer or oversteer? understeer because it increases the contact patch on the front wheels. A beefier rear sway bar will increase the contact patch of the rear wheels, (and increase its mass), thus increasing its rotational ability.
Werd
agreed, weight in front does not better the handling of a car. if this were true 50/50 weight distribution would not be a goal of any sports car manufacturers.
Weight distribution while maintaining constant (and perfect)circular velocity may not be a primary factor because there is no weight transfer, however this has no real world application. Moving mass has momentum, the more mass, the more momentum. The more mass in the front of the car when turning, the more inertia it will have and thus cause a greater force to move the front in a straightline, which will contribute to an understeer situation.
Friction and centrifugal force are inversely proportional in this example. If they were not inversely proportional then making a very hard turn would increase a cars traction, which hopefully we all know it does not. Mass increase (or in this case weight) is directly proportional to both friction and centrifugal force, but the two are not so to each other. Centrifugal force DECREASES the amount of weight (and mass, in case of body roll) over the frictional service, thus causing a loss of friction (and traction).
Addition of mass to the front of the car (or subtraction of weight from the rear) will result in both more friction and more centrifugal for the front of the car, its been stated how the attidtion of centrifugal force will contribute to an oversteer situation, but the increase in friction (or traction as it may be) will reduce the cars rotational ability (as there is less mass in the back of the car to give its centrifugal force towards the rotation of the car) and this will aid the fwd in its natural tendency to understeer. The wheels in the car do not want to turn, as the force of the car's inertia is attempting to go in a striaght line, running torque through the drive wheels only increases this tendency as the force of accelleration is further pushing it to go in a straight line. The more friction(traction) available, the more the torque is able to carry out this natural inclination, combine this with the more massive front half (and thur more inertia) and the lack of mass in the rear to aid in rotation, and you built yourself an understeer monster.
And just for kicks, heres a thought: does a beefier front anti-sway bar cause understeer or oversteer? understeer because it increases the contact patch on the front wheels. A beefier rear sway bar will increase the contact patch of the rear wheels, (and increase its mass), thus increasing its rotational ability.
Werd
for real, come guys
01-28-04, 05:04 PM
#68
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Sideways7
[B]Also, the e-brake will lock the wheels, which greatly reduces the tire's grip. Thats why cars have ABS.
that's not always true... ABS doesn't do a damn think in the snow.
[B]Also, the e-brake will lock the wheels, which greatly reduces the tire's grip. Thats why cars have ABS.
that's not always true... ABS doesn't do a damn think in the snow.
01-28-04, 06:43 PM
#69
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i am talkin bout weight transfer, weight ditribution, cent. force, and u are talkin bout mass moving due to suspension allowing a car body to roll. plus u do not seem to understand that whatever mass u move away from the inside wheel will go to the outside wheel, and since friction is m*g*u, the net traction on those 2 wheels will be the same.
"yes, yes i failed physics hardcore, which is why im a second year mechanical engineering major"
wow. im, sorry. u r so kool. i forgot how hard university is.....not. anyone can make it with a little bit of help from there friends, a little copying and some cheating. anyways, mechanical is all math with little applications to the real world. that must be why u r having so much trouble with this concept. it is ppl like u that keep endorsing piston engines.
"yes, yes i failed physics hardcore, which is why im a second year mechanical engineering major"
wow. im, sorry. u r so kool. i forgot how hard university is.....not. anyone can make it with a little bit of help from there friends, a little copying and some cheating. anyways, mechanical is all math with little applications to the real world. that must be why u r having so much trouble with this concept. it is ppl like u that keep endorsing piston engines.
01-28-04, 07:57 PM
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Originally posted by oregano
wow. im, sorry. u r so kool. i forgot how hard university is.....not. anyone can make it with a little bit of help from there friends, a little copying and some cheating. anyways, mechanical is all math with little applications to the real world.
wow. im, sorry. u r so kool. i forgot how hard university is.....not. anyone can make it with a little bit of help from there friends, a little copying and some cheating. anyways, mechanical is all math with little applications to the real world.
...and last time I checked, mechanical has the most real world application (directly related to vehicle dynamics) of the branches of engineering...
(unless you think that we should be talking to the chemical engineers about roll bars?
)...btw, learn to ******* spell "does"
01-28-04, 08:36 PM
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Re: racing question
Originally posted by josh greene
in your n/a does any one else kick most peoples *** off the line then loose in third??? i have a 87 n/a and that what usually happens to me well when racing relativly decent cars.
in your n/a does any one else kick most peoples *** off the line then loose in third??? i have a 87 n/a and that what usually happens to me well when racing relativly decent cars.
01-28-04, 08:44 PM
#72
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yeah saying mechanical engineers dont deal with real world application proves without any shadow of a doubt your ignorance. Who do you think designed your motor? or your suspension, or your entire car?
im done with this
im done with this
Last edited by Tsunami; 01-28-04 at 08:46 PM.
01-28-04, 08:58 PM
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Originally posted by superstock2
oregano i would have to disagree that the prelude is the fastest what about the NSX they hall mad *** or the s2000 there are also faster and more powerful than the prelude
oregano i would have to disagree that the prelude is the fastest what about the NSX they hall mad *** or the s2000 there are also faster and more powerful than the prelude
01-28-04, 09:00 PM
#75
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i had no idea i logged on to www.rice.com