pulsation dampner
05-26-04, 12:09 AM
#27
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Originally posted by Maxthe7man
To tell you the truth, I have never seen pusation dampener on carbed vehicle, I did just have a carter race mechanical pump part though, and there is a fuel pressure regulator, no dampener by any means though, so I don't know where you got your info from ? Links?
To tell you the truth, I have never seen pusation dampener on carbed vehicle, I did just have a carter race mechanical pump part though, and there is a fuel pressure regulator, no dampener by any means though, so I don't know where you got your info from ? Links?
I am still trying to understand your experience though. Did you say you had a motor fail because you didn't use a PD?
killinfoo66: since no one "really" understands the PD, it would be arguable on how effective its position is now.
05-26-04, 02:25 AM
#28
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I bet not one of the anti-PD people can asnwer this one simple question.
If it's not needed, why does every EFI car have one?
It's not a hard question, but every time I ask it in these threads (many, many times...), nobody answers. Ever.
If it's not needed, why does every EFI car have one?
It's not a hard question, but every time I ask it in these threads (many, many times...), nobody answers. Ever.
05-26-04, 11:06 AM
#29
The problem I see here is that Max is giving you his experiences with his car, as well as the links to discussions and other literature on the subject, written by very knowledgeable people.
Ted on the other hand keeps telling us he has "real world" experience. He refers to "ours" and "we". In order for his comments to have ANY merit he needs to tell us who "ours" and "we" are. Otherwise it's just him making **** up. I have no problem wtih his style of arguement, but he needs to show some evidence of his experiences. I for one am not willing to be led to slaughter just because the "almighty" ReTed asks me to follow him.
There are a few people here who are saying they've done a ton of research on the topic, but when it comes to the facts their way off, leading me to believe they either didnt do the research they say they have, or they don't understand the principles involved. I'm not sure why people are fighting this tooth and nail, maybe their affraid to go back on their word and eat a little crow. From reading the links Max posted, and checking out a few books on the topic from the library of my local technical institute it's become clear to me. Regardless of the type or model of FPR a pulsation dampner is beneficial to any car that has reliability to think about.
Ted on the other hand keeps telling us he has "real world" experience. He refers to "ours" and "we". In order for his comments to have ANY merit he needs to tell us who "ours" and "we" are. Otherwise it's just him making **** up. I have no problem wtih his style of arguement, but he needs to show some evidence of his experiences. I for one am not willing to be led to slaughter just because the "almighty" ReTed asks me to follow him.
There are a few people here who are saying they've done a ton of research on the topic, but when it comes to the facts their way off, leading me to believe they either didnt do the research they say they have, or they don't understand the principles involved. I'm not sure why people are fighting this tooth and nail, maybe their affraid to go back on their word and eat a little crow. From reading the links Max posted, and checking out a few books on the topic from the library of my local technical institute it's become clear to me. Regardless of the type or model of FPR a pulsation dampner is beneficial to any car that has reliability to think about.
05-26-04, 11:34 AM
#30
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Not to get off topic (the argument), but fstrnyou posted a good question, that I am also curious about.. What does that screw in the middle of the PD, underneath the yellow plastic cap, do? Mine was also loose, although not falling out or anything, I screwed it down a bit, then put it back on, so far my engine hasn't caught fire, should I be wary?
Thanks!
~Wonko The Sane
And now back to the argueing
Thanks!
~Wonko The Sane
And now back to the argueing
05-26-04, 12:42 PM
#32
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Originally posted by rx7_turbo2
The problem I see here is that Max is giving you his experiences with his car, as well as the links to discussions and other literature on the subject, written by very knowledgeable people.
Ted on the other hand keeps telling us he has "real world" experience. He refers to "ours" and "we". In order for his comments to have ANY merit he needs to tell us who "ours" and "we" are. Otherwise it's just him making **** up. I have no problem wtih his style of arguement, but he needs to show some evidence of his experiences. I for one am not willing to be led to slaughter just because the "almighty" ReTed asks me to follow him.
There are a few people here who are saying they've done a ton of research on the topic, but when it comes to the facts their way off, leading me to believe they either didnt do the research they say they have, or they don't understand the principles involved. I'm not sure why people are fighting this tooth and nail, maybe their affraid to go back on their word and eat a little crow. From reading the links Max posted, and checking out a few books on the topic from the library of my local technical institute it's become clear to me. Regardless of the type or model of FPR a pulsation dampner is beneficial to any car that has reliability to think about.
The problem I see here is that Max is giving you his experiences with his car, as well as the links to discussions and other literature on the subject, written by very knowledgeable people.
Ted on the other hand keeps telling us he has "real world" experience. He refers to "ours" and "we". In order for his comments to have ANY merit he needs to tell us who "ours" and "we" are. Otherwise it's just him making **** up. I have no problem wtih his style of arguement, but he needs to show some evidence of his experiences. I for one am not willing to be led to slaughter just because the "almighty" ReTed asks me to follow him.
There are a few people here who are saying they've done a ton of research on the topic, but when it comes to the facts their way off, leading me to believe they either didnt do the research they say they have, or they don't understand the principles involved. I'm not sure why people are fighting this tooth and nail, maybe their affraid to go back on their word and eat a little crow. From reading the links Max posted, and checking out a few books on the topic from the library of my local technical institute it's become clear to me. Regardless of the type or model of FPR a pulsation dampner is beneficial to any car that has reliability to think about.
On the other hand, Max came into the conversation he has a Grand National that failed because of the PD(or lack there of, he hasn't explained yet). He has even mentioned having a high output rotary car fail because of the PD(or lack there of, still no explanation). I would give him credibilty, if he said these cars failed because of no PD. I certainly don't appreciate all the name calling he is sending out.
I am not for or against having a PD, but I seriously want to know its function. Maybe its has a function to keep fuel flow constant from injector pulses? To me, my real world experience is having seen one on at least one carb'd vehicle. Besides the RX7, I don't remember having one on any of my cars(all fuel injected), so I am still looking into if they did have one. For now though I just want more info on the PD's function.
05-26-04, 01:50 PM
#33
Originally posted by pyrojunkie
RETed only posted that in has never affected any of his cars he has tuned. He only said from his testing that he had enough proof for himself. He mentioned only that it was his real world experience and not info read in an article.
RETed only posted that in has never affected any of his cars he has tuned. He only said from his testing that he had enough proof for himself. He mentioned only that it was his real world experience and not info read in an article.
On the other hand, Max came into the conversation he has a Grand National that failed because of the PD(or lack there of, he hasn't explained yet). He has even mentioned having a high output rotary car fail because of the PD(or lack there of, still no explanation). I would give him credibilty, if he said these cars failed because of no PD. I certainly don't appreciate all the name calling he is sending out.
I am not for or against having a PD, but I seriously want to know its function. Maybe its has a function to keep fuel flow constant from injector pulses? To me, my real world experience is having seen one on at least one carb'd vehicle. Besides the RX7, I don't remember having one on any of my cars(all fuel injected), so I am still looking into if they did have one. For now though I just want more info on the PD's function.
05-26-04, 02:11 PM
#34
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So I pulled the "spider" & ran heat shielded rubber hose (3.5 meters total) from the firewall to the rails.
The PD stays for now, but it leaks, it's gone.
The hose is my PD..
The PD stays for now, but it leaks, it's gone.
The hose is my PD..
05-26-04, 04:13 PM
#35
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Originally posted by Maxthe7man
I guess a set of hammered injectors and a popped motor is not "real world experience"...
give me a break....
I guess a set of hammered injectors and a popped motor is not "real world experience"...
give me a break....
I here a lot of claims from you, but I never hear of proof.
You keep "hiding" behind your references.
I would also say there are alot of people out there have popped a motor and wondered why , how many times have you read," all the a/f's were good, the timing was good, it just let go"....
All of the ones running EGT gauges have mentioned elevated EGT levels. See the thread on NoPistons about the car Steve Kan was tuning that keeps letting go on the dyno (several times); this car is almost an identical set-up as others cars Mr. Kan has tuned, but he does mentioned elevated EGT's which cannot be explained.
It shows your ignorance on the whole subject of EGT's. if the EGT is in it's safe range, it's next to impossible to kill a motor from detonation. This also shows your ignorance on the relation of PD's to fuel delivery to EGT's. If there is adverse effects from the missing PD, there *IS* going to be an adverse effect on fuel delivery. Ergo, EGT is going to be affected due to the inconsistent EGT. Now you're talking yourself in circles which makes no sense...which I've already claimed you're illogical.
well I think that phenonem is in the fuel rails..
Will it show up on a guage? probably not...
Will it show up on a wideband, probably not, although it might show up on a narrow band, much like the closed loop in that regard, its to fast of an event, and you get an "averaged" readout on most widebands..
Is it there all the time? No, it seems every fuel system has a certain resonance, where the fuel delivery will become unstable...
You can basically corral this occurence to batch injection, in sequential injection, the pulses according to GM cancels each other out.
(references snipped)
If you can save a buck on a car, and you make a million cars thats a million dollar saving, they aren't putting the pulsation dampeners in over a million cars, just for kicks now are they...Max
(references snipped)
If you can save a buck on a car, and you make a million cars thats a million dollar saving, they aren't putting the pulsation dampeners in over a million cars, just for kicks now are they...Max
You pull your PD and run an aftermarket FPR exactly how my parallel fuel rail diagram states. If you blow the engine, I'll buy you ANY 13B engine to replace yours. I wouldn't think you would allow me to build you an engine....pshaw...so the deal is you pick the builder (Racing Beat, Mazdatrix, Atkins, Don Marvel, R.E. Amemiya, FEED, PanSpeed, I don't care), I pay for the tab if you provide me conclusive proof the non-existance of a PD in the set-up causes the demise of your engine.
Put your money where your mouth is or JSTFU.
-Ted
05-26-04, 04:24 PM
#37
Lives on the Forum
Originally posted by Maxthe7man
I am not arguing with Ted, Ted is arguing with the rest of the world on this one,
I am not arguing with Ted, Ted is arguing with the rest of the world on this one,
I dunno where you get this implication from, but it's not my intention to do so.
I think you're inferring the wrong point from my postings.
it seems his experience on his mostly stock FC outwieghs what most of the auto manafactures in the world think, along with leading manafactures of efi equipment..
I read a recent Turbo (or someting close) about PD's, and the main points were 1/2" ID fuel rail, very long fuel rails, and multi-point injection. The FC fuel rails almost break all of these rules.
Most of Teds real world experience is unprovable, you don't get 10000 posts working on high output FC's and FD's, you get it by sitting on the internet blowing your own horn..
I do not imply my experience is a thorough, scientific proven "truth".
I'm sorry if my experience isn't good enough to change your views.
I present them as a "data point", not as an end-all answer.
I dunno, I am tired of explaining this, if you are dumb enough to risk your motor when there are nearly a 100 credible sources written by people alot more credible than Reted, then all the power to you...max
http://www.teamfc3s.org/forum/showth...threadid=29559
THIS is what pissed me off.
THIS is what I'm defending.
THIS is where I think you're wrong.
-Ted
05-26-04, 04:29 PM
#39
Lives on the Forum
Originally posted by Aaron Cake
Please keep this thread friendly and free of flames. Thanks.
Please keep this thread friendly and free of flames. Thanks.
Hell, you're the mod, you can delete, and I can't do anything about it.
You know the history between us.
You even started a thread about me in the Mods forum, so I understand.
-Ted
05-26-04, 04:38 PM
#42
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I don't always see eye to eye with Ted on matters, but the diagram shown works fine, and has for many more people than just myself. The PD is in the FPR, atleast any modern "nice FPR" There does come a time when reality means more then theory. In theory, I could say this phone on my desk keeps tigers away. I don't see any tigers so it must work.
05-26-04, 06:09 PM
#44
Originally posted by NZConvertible
See, I told you nobody would answer my question.
See, I told you nobody would answer my question.
http://www.autoshop101.com/forms/h42.pdf
PULSATION DAMPER:
The rapid opening and closing of the injectors cause pressure fluctuations in the fuel rail. The result is that the amount of injected fuel will be more or less then the desired result. Mounted on the fuel rail, the pulsation damper reduces these pressure fluctuations.
Page 19.
I have a PD, and I intend to keep it. But if you all want to remove it. Knock yourselves out.
Rat
PULSATION DAMPER:
The rapid opening and closing of the injectors cause pressure fluctuations in the fuel rail. The result is that the amount of injected fuel will be more or less then the desired result. Mounted on the fuel rail, the pulsation damper reduces these pressure fluctuations.
Page 19.
I have a PD, and I intend to keep it. But if you all want to remove it. Knock yourselves out.
Rat
05-26-04, 07:49 PM
#47
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Originally posted by NZConvertible
Well you and I know why they're there. I was actually hoping for an explanation from someone who thinks they're not necessary.
Well you and I know why they're there. I was actually hoping for an explanation from someone who thinks they're not necessary.
And Ted, I guess the difference from my point of view and yours is mine comes from about 150 rwhp more experience...max
05-26-04, 08:06 PM
#49
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Since we're just arguing in circles...how's about this deal.
You pull your PD and run an aftermarket FPR exactly how my parallel fuel rail diagram states. If you blow the engine, I'll buy you ANY 13B engine to replace yours. I wouldn't think you would allow me to build you an engine....pshaw...so the deal is you pick the builder (Racing Beat, Mazdatrix, Atkins, Don Marvel, R.E. Amemiya, FEED, PanSpeed, I don't care), I pay for the tab if you provide me conclusive proof the non-existance of a PD in the set-up causes the demise of your engine.
Put your money where your mouth is or JSTFU.
-Ted
You pull your PD and run an aftermarket FPR exactly how my parallel fuel rail diagram states. If you blow the engine, I'll buy you ANY 13B engine to replace yours. I wouldn't think you would allow me to build you an engine....pshaw...so the deal is you pick the builder (Racing Beat, Mazdatrix, Atkins, Don Marvel, R.E. Amemiya, FEED, PanSpeed, I don't care), I pay for the tab if you provide me conclusive proof the non-existance of a PD in the set-up causes the demise of your engine.
Put your money where your mouth is or JSTFU.
-Ted
And how do you think I came across this?... get your cheque book out, I ran without a PD, and parallel rails, and the motor with a toasted front rotor, with injectors that drip fuel like an eye dropper...I am in the process of putting a serial looped fuel rail back in the car with a pulsation damper...
Anyone know what makes the PD screw fall out? is it the constant pulsing?
As for ignorance Ted, apparently you need a a course on reading, Where did I say EGT's, now you are just making **** up.. Again its your logic against the world, I can produce 20 books and gazillion links, on why the PD is there, however I have a hard time finding people with a high horsepower REted tuned car to back up your claims...Max
