classicauto

iTrader: (3)

Cool beans man, what are you going to use for a tank? Keep goign with the windshield washer bottle?

stylEmon

iTrader: (2)

i may use it temporarily. I am looking for a 3G tank.

The Wankler

iTrader: (14)

So you are passing on a IC and using AI instead?

stylEmon

iTrader: (2)

for now, AI only.

I may turn to IC in the future. But we'll see how things go with the reverse vent hood, and AI.

The Wankler

iTrader: (14)

Hey, you in Phoenix? I am going to be down there on the 14th-18th. My Father lives by Inianola and 33nd street. Been going down there for 34 years.

stylEmon

iTrader: (2)

of April?
We should get together for a beer!

The Wankler

iTrader: (14)

Agreed! I have a sissy rental car. I will shoot you over my number.
Chris

stylEmon

iTrader: (2)

rentals are my fav to drink and drive in... LOL

stylEmon

iTrader: (2)

did ya'll see my new oil filler neck? It's kinda touch to get oil in now (gotta keep the 10mm handy). but it stays out of the way of my intake, and makes my catch can fully fuctional.

stylEmon

iTrader: (2)

I just got my pump and injector from Devil's Own. Can't wait to get this system hooked up. Looks like I'll have the jet come on about 6-7 psi. I am keeping my first stage injector pre-turbo, but am only running water in that pump. It will come on at 1 psi.

The second stage is the 150psi devil's own pump and the jet is 7 times the size. This pump will be controlled by the MoTeC. So far, this seems to be the biggest challenge. I think the table will only run based on manifold pressure, and I will leave out RPM. This will make the system as simple as possible, but allow for an aggressive tune.

I've got a pressure switch, so I will know if there is a system failure. There will be a LED wired into this switch. Cozmo kreamer says he found a way to wire a failsafe into his boost controller... this seems like a VERY wise move.

Pics later, should be installed in the next week or two!!!!!!!!!!!

cozmo kraemer

I think you have to be REALLY careful running W/I only and not having some other trigger besides boost. I am running the Aquamist HFS-5 for a reason and the versatility of the system is a big part of that reason. My system triggers on Fuel Injector Duty Cycle and this is critical for an intercoolerless system for two reasons.

1st - When your engine experiences load (say a long sustained incline), your turbo will build a certain amount of boost in cells far different from a normal acceleration. If you are triggering the system based on Map sensor voltage, the system wont trigger... So say you are running up a really steep hill, for 15-20 minutes (ie coming back from LA ascending to Chiriaco Summit - which is the place I came to this realization). My car was seeing about 3-5psi of boost (with no intercooler) and this was causing me to have SERIOUSLY high intake temps. A highly loaded engine will have a high IDC, even if it has low boost levels (partial throttle). This wont activate a boost actuated system, but will activate an IDC triggered system. Hence ascending the same hill with my W/I my temps were a full 50C lower... YES 50C!! I was seeing almost 80C intake temps, when I actually got extended periods of high load at 6psi. In normal acceleration, even on the dyno, the stock AIT sensor was not fast enough to see this. With the W/I turned on I would see from 30-40C temps over the same stretch of road...

2nd - Fuel Injector Duty Cycle takes into account every sensor on your car. Your ECU is programed to take data from every sensor available and the only two engine functions it can control are fuel and timing. So if temps get too hot it can dump fuel and pull timing... If it is dumping fuel, since my car injects w/a proportional to IDC, it dumps a proportional amount of w/a from my aux injection system. The new FJO system has it's own mapping capabillty, but why would you want to do this if your fuel maps are already tuned? Wouldn't it make sense just to scale a system off of your currently tuned fuel map?


So to make things short, injecting just on boost is REALLY limiting your control and with the amount of money you have invested in that engine, I wouldn't feel comfortable with that alone. It will for sure work in a controlled acceleration type of environment, but if you catch it out of its element one time, it could be the end of your engine. This is why I spent big money on the Aquamist setup for its complexity and redundence.



My failsafe is wired through the junction board of my Aquamist system. Basically the boost control solenoid ground wire is wired into a pin on the board and out of a pin on the board back into the boost control box. If my system senses too little water flow (low tank level, crack in a line before my flow sensor, clogged filter, etc.) it will cut the boost control solenoid ground and hence run on the wastegate spring. Exactly contrary to that, if my flow sensor senses flow over the normal specified range (ie, leak in hose after the flow sensor, broken jet, etc) it will also cut the solenoid. Also the ground on the board takes readings from my tank level sensor. If the tank level is too low it also cuts the solenoid.

So my fail safe is wired into the actual W/I system because that is in the system design. I have other diagrams of how to wire in a fail safe if you want to do it by intake temp or something like that. Let me know...


My system triggers at about 33% IDC. Depending on load and RPM this can be all over the place as far as boost levels. It can be 1psi at 5000rpm or it can be 3-4psi at 3000rpm.... in normal driving on a flat road it starts injecting right around 3-4psi. This is ok, because of the high speed valve in my setup. The HSV only pulses at the same pulse width as the summed output of my fuel injectors. So say my IDC is 33%, the HSV is pulsing at 33% of its maximum flow (so I am not drowning the engine) as the IDC increases the pulse width of the HSV increases and so too does my flow up to the limit of the restrictor I put into the HSV. Currently my max flow at 100% IDC is 500cc/min of water.

I can manipulate the HSV pulse width using a small voltage potentiometer...if I want the HSV to have a 20% underrun all the way up to a 20% over run I can... So say my IDC never gets above 82% (at torque peak) my w/i will be at 100% using the 20% overrun.

Make sense? I really like the control of the system, and the convenience of the gauge that comes with the kit.

cozmo kraemer

To really sum things up, I think three things are ABSOLUTELY CRITICAL to running W/I only on a moderately boosted setup.

First - having some way to detect flow and how much flow you are actually seeing (so a flow sensor in the jet feed line, and some sort of gauge)

Second - A failsafe built into the flow sensor and tank level sensor (so it triggers the fail safe on fluid flow over range, under range, and low tank level)

Third - A high speed valve that can pulse in proportion to IDC (ie. w/i can trip at a low rpm/boost level and not drown the engine because it isn't an on off switch. In essense the degree you push the gas pedal controls how much w/i your car sees)

I wouldn't run a car without an intercooler to more than 6psi without those things, but that is just me.

stylEmon

iTrader: (2)

right on bro. You have really dialed in your system, far more to the extent that I've seen.

Thanks for the info on your failsafes. I am really gonna explore the control that I'll have with the MoTeC. I am sure that I can base the table off of manifold pressure and boost. I just thought basing it off boost would be the simplest route. Thanks for the warnings and explanations.

I do have a presure switch that I'll be using. And I'll have LEDs to let me know when the AI is active or low.

What dies your gauge tell you? Level?

I am sure I'll have a ton of questions once I get into this. So I hope you can give me some more advice down the line

cozmo kraemer

My gauge tells me how much injectant is flowing through the flow sensor in 75cc increments. Every 75cc/min more flow another bar lights up...total of 7 bars = 525cc/min. It first lights at 33% IDC I get two bars...which would make sense...

The gauge also tells me if the water level is low in the tank and it tells me when the fail safe is tripped and when it isn't. The flow sensor has to see a certain amount of flow before it will allow the boost control solenoid to open. When it sees 1 bar of flow, it opens the window and my boost control is active. If the flow goes beyond my specified range, it closes the switch and shuts down the boost controller.... But you can see all of this from the gauge.

stylEmon

iTrader: (2)

sounds like a really nice kit!!!

Glad you got it all worked out.

stylEmon

iTrader: (2)

Here is the Boost Juice system!!!!





Looks like it belongs in that bin, don't it!


Here is the second stage. I am running it post-compressor, pure methanol.



Here is my original AI system. It's a small injector, pre comressor, and is now spraying RO water ONLY. it will stay in tact and is activated at 1 PSI.


The second stage is wired into the MoTeC and went pretty smooth. So the MoTeC controls the AI system. Right now, the pump is on, or off. I don't yet have the ability to vary the duty cycle, but once I find the proper resistor, I'll have that ability.

Red Comet Racer

inspiring! your hard core! Im currently NA but doing alot of hw on the art of boosting! Looks sweet!

stylEmon

iTrader: (2)

thanks Red Commet Racer. Good luck on your quest for boost. You may not like my suggestion, but I think it's easier to find a T2 and go from there. The amount you spend on the 13bT and drivetrain will surpass what it takes to get a T2. If you do go looking for a T2, SCRUTINIZE the hell out of the motor.

I lived on SA for most of my life. I miss it out there. Before I left, I sold my White 87T2. Always wondered what happened to it...

Is Military Dr and Nacodoches still happening?

classicauto

iTrader: (3)

How's the MoTeC controlling it? RPM based? MAP based?

Loving the no intercooler! Any data on intake temps during a long boost pull?

stylEmon

iTrader: (2)

MAP based. I will eventually try to add more control, but first I need to tweak the way the setup works. I want both jets working from the same pump. currently I have two pumps. (one is about 150psi, the other is about 20 psi)

The AI typically keeps the AIT about 15 above ambeint during boost. I haven't been testing it in the heat yet becuase I expect the AIT to be a little lower than ambient. Until I get the desired temps, I'll probably lay off the boost in the summer.

I mentioned above the two pumps. The pre-compressor jet is controlled by the weak (20psi) pump. From all the testing I've done, the pre-compressor jet makes the most difference, dramatically! So what I need to do is, up the jet size pre-compressor, and hook that jet up to the 150 psi pump. Once that is done, everyone should be impressed by the power!!!

I've already considered that I may need to go V-mount, but I'm gonna really test this AI to the max.

stylEmon

iTrader: (2)

Got it!!
Finally we got the pre-compressor jet hooked up to the 150psi pump. Both stages are connected to the big pump now. It made SO much difference. The AIT started going down the longer I stayed in boost.

The car gets to 120mph REAL fast now.
Here's a little more details...
https://www.rx7club.com/auxiliary-injection-173/upgrading-real-pump-no-ic-w-t04e-739911/

stylEmon

iTrader: (2)

I'll get some pics soon, but I did a lot of little things to the car this weekend.

I got my hands on a wiper-less rear hatch. 4 bolts holding the hatch down, and 2 bolts for the hatch shocks. That went pretty quick. It looks much smoother without the washer nipple and the nub for the wiper.

As mentioned above, I finished the AI system and its working really well now!

I got an undertray from a freind. He did some custom ducting to the tray so that there is NO gap between the undertray and the bottom of the radiator. It lowered my water temps 5*F. He basically closed off the gap with some sheetmetal and wrapped the edges with rubber. I'll get some pics of this one!

Last, I busted the pin on my gas cap door so the door wouldn't close. I pulled the pin off another car and fixed that. Nothing major, but it's nice to tie up some loose ends.

cozmo kraemer

Couple of comments.

You shouldn't vary the voltage going to the pump with a resistor to modulate flow. This will kill your response and the atomization of the injectant. The best way to modulate flow is to keep the pump running at 150psi (pump should have an internal bypass) and put a high speed valve inline that is controlled with some kind of "brain" either the Motec, or one of the boxes from the A/I companies. This would give you variable flow, by varying the pulse rate of the HSV without killing line pressure, and with it response and atomization.

Next, OF COURSE that 20 PSI pump on the pre-comp injector was KILLING you! You had to know that! The absolute most critical thing to precompressor A/I is atomization, you can get atomization in two ways... Either using an injector that has a high pressure air source. OR using a pump that supplies VERY high pressure water and a very good injector. Obviously #1 is the best (specific injector w/ air supply) but #2 has proven to work effectively, and not damage the compressor, if used with low flow rates.

So now you are only running one mixture right? Since it is all being supplied by the same pump it has to be the same mixture at both nozzles. Are you still running pure methanol?

stylEmon

iTrader: (2)

Cosmo, I realized right after intalling the pump that varying the pump voltage is bad on many levels. Not only will it kill my flow, it will also kill the pump much faster. I'll be on the look out for some sort of inline valve soon, and wire it to the MoTeC.

I knew the 20psi pump was a huge issue, but still, we tested away. We went through different jets, different mixtures... on and on it went. But finally, we got both stages hooked up to the big pump.

Both jets are from the same tank. Much simpler now. And yes, 100% meth now, but I may mix it on the next tank. (80/20)

myersprostatus

iTrader: (2)

where did you get those wheels