AllMotorRotor

I was looking into better filtration and thought that a bypass filter would be a great addition. I'm already using there full flow filter which filters down to about 7 micron. The Bypass filters down to 1micron.

The bypass filter will use 1/8" fittings and I was thinking of plumbing the intake where the oil pressure sender is and then either, getting a oil filter pedistal with 1/8" ports and plumb the output there or just drill and tap a hole into the oil pan or front cover.

My question is, if I buy a oil filter pedistal and plumb the output into one of the fittings, would the pressure just equalize between the input and output, initally having no oil flow at all through the bypass filter? If so I will just drill and tap a hole in either the oil pan or front cover.

I don't think I would have to upgrade to a T2 pump since its a small amount of oil flowing through but I may have to.

Any suggestions?

Aaron Cake

iTrader: (1)

I'm not sure I understand your question. You are thinking of plumbing the filter into the filter pedestal and then draining into the pan? If that's the case, then that's how the filter is designed to operate.

I do question the value of such a filter in an engine with low oil change intervals running a non-synthetic oil. You're probably solving a problem that doesn't exist and adding another point of failure.

AllMotorRotor

Im keeping the full flow filter on the engine, but adding another filter which has a much low flow rate so I can't run it inline with the stock oil system. Hence the bypass filter which lets some oil bypass the rest of the oil system, to be filtered, and then would get dumped into the oil pan.

Im just wondering if there is say 40psi from the output of the oil cooler which leads up to the stock filter location and also the pressure sender, and tap into the oil pressure sender for the input which again would have 40psi, and have the output in a pedestal where pressure would also be 40psi, would there be any flow through the bypass filter? Or would the flow try to go in the output and input of the bypass filter as well?

Im not solving any problems im adding better filtration, with synthetic oil to increase the change intervals and decrease wear on the internal engine parts.

deadRX7Conv

Which bypass filter PN?

For a small engine, like the rotary, make sure that the bypass's restriction orifice is small. Most bypass filters are sized for larger engines. I'd installing an orifice down to .030-.020. I believe that Amsoil equips the filter with .040 holes. Or, consider running a 10psi ball/spring restrictor to reduce flow through bypass.

What is your goal?
Extended oil change intervals, IMO, is not good for a rotary. Fuel dilution, shearing,.....will beat the oil to hell. No filter can help with that. Even with the bypass, I'll still recommend 3k/3mo OCIs.

Keeping the oil clean is a great goal. But, there is more to oil in our application that can NOT be addressed with filtration.

Amsoil full flow filters are too expensive. $25 is a lot to spend for a filter when Pureone, X2, M1,.....can be had for $6-10. I'll just stick with my $3 filter and throw it out every 3k miles. And, those fancy Amsoil bypass filters cost $40 or more, but should last 30k+ in this small engine.

Any pressure source will feed a bypass filter. Plumb it for the easiest installation, shortest lines,........ Tee-in anywhere ANY oil pressure is.

Pro/cons:
Cleaner oil during OCI--but still needs to be changed because of fuel dilution and shearing. Is that a benefit? You can prove it with a used oil analysis.
Bragging rights---look at what the Amsoil 'salesman' sold me.
Increased oil capacity---any additional oil should help maintain oil condition, oil cooling, oil temps......
Increased points of failure- the filter, t-fittings, bypass return(new hole in pan), plumbing....... adds more risk.
Oil PSI and flow loss--yep, any oil going to the filter 'bypasses' the engine. Thats flow and pressure that could be used to prevent wear. This was an issue with their 'dual mount remote kits'.

IMO, increased oil change intervals are great for certain engines. The rotary is NOT one of them.

Get the bypass filter if you want. But, you'll still need to remove excess fuel dilution with 3k oil change intervals.

alexdimen

iTrader: (13)

Are you having oil problems? Hvae you even heard of anyone having an oil related failure on a street driven FC?

You should be worried about coolant quality and lubrication of the combustion chamber and seals way before bypass filtration. This mod would make 0 (zero) difference in engine longevity.

RETed

If I read your description right, that thing is a royal waste of money.

BTW, the oil pressure at the oil cooler is more like 100psi+.


-Ted

ericgrau

iTrader: (1)

I thought the AMS bypass oil filter system just screws in where your existing oil filter is , and then branches off with spots to put both filters. No?

AMS oil filters are actually cheaper in the long run compared to Mobil 1 and Pure One (which also filter really well), b/c AMS filters last a super long time.

Anyway I was thinking of getting the same system eventually, so I'm curious if there are in fact plumbing issues. The benefit of a bypass filter system is 100% filtration. You could almost get away with never changing your oil in a bypass sytem (though they recommend changing it 1/year or every 25k miles, I think). It is popular among 18 wheelers, since their engines need to last 500,000 miles without excessive wear. So really I'd think the main issue would be, "But what if something else kills your engine? Then the bypass system is a waste."

Since the bypass filter is in parallel with the main filter, restriction is not an issue. In fact, there should be slightly less restriction overall.

deadRX7Conv

The Ams dual remote takes the place of the existing filter and should be avoided. It has issues. Stick with the standalone single filter kit. Or, make your own. All you need is the filter mount, hoses, some fittings, and comon sense. The Amsoil kits are a waste of money, but do ease the installation for wannabe mechanics. The Frantz and Motorguard would be better choices since you are not forced to use overpriced media. The Frantz/Motorguard filtration media is available everywhere, cost <$1, can absorb moisture that synth-media filters don't touch, is a true depth filtration media.......

Amsoil full flow filters are not cheaper in the long run. Noone has proved that they last a long time. Particles counts comparing the $6 Pureone filter to the $20 Amsoil fullflow filter were similar, so there not really better at filtering when compared to any other boutique filters. A full flow oil filter should be changed at every oil change. Hows changing $20 filter cheaper then a $4 OEM filter every 3k? And, at every oil change, I would want to remove as much old oil as possible. Rotaries tend to leave too much old oil behind compared to a boinger.

The Rx7 isn't a truck. Don't confuse the two. 18 wheelers have huge sumps that would need to be changed every few weeks. Larger engines have sump capacities of 25-40 quarts or more. Changing the oil every 2 weeks would be very expensive and time consuming. Bypass filtration quickly pays itself off here. Diesel engines can last 500k or more miles without bypass filtration. Bypass filter simply reduces maintenance intervals, by reducing the soot/insolubles loading up the diesel engine oil. Rotaries don't have soot issues. Diesel fuel soots the oil up quickly. It took less then 5 minutes for TDIs and CRDs that I serviced to make the oil look darker then black ink. My Rx7 with a 100hrs on the oil is just a dark amber. The soot amount DIRECTLY affects the oil change interval, and IMO, is why bypass filtration should be mandatory in a DIESEL engine.

A bypass filter will NOT remove fuel dilution that is common to the pig rich rotary. The oil is good for 3k and nothing else. Used oil analysis can be used to track the fuel dilution if you want to push the interval beyond 3k. Don't expect miracles from ANY filter. Standalone fuel injection, with perfect A/F ratio dyno tuning, along with accurate ignition timing control, can help reduce fuel dilution. But, rotaries aren't tuned to run lean or have excessive timing advance. What percentage of Rx's are in a good state of tune to begin with? The fuel dilution percentage will DIRECTLY affects the oil change interval. No filter or oil can change that.

Shearing of the oil is an issue. A diesel engine with a <2500rpm redline won't shear an oil. Shoot, I don't think that my '7 is ever under 2500 rpm. Anyone thinking that extended oil changes is acceptable, even with a super filter, needs to pull head out of **** and breath some air. The oil viscosity that is sheared DIRECTLY affects the OCI. No filter can prevent that. But, higher end oils, narrow range oils, and better additized oils shear less.

Don't take my views as anti-Amsoil or anti-bypass filters.
I have used and installed bypass filters. They have their place. For the rotary, the additional oil capacity/filtration/cooling will help. But it will NOT extend the oil change interval.
And, I also recommend Amsoil often, along with most other boutique brands, when it is in your budget. I just don't see them as 'best'. I don't see them as the 'only choice'. And, I hate their marketing/advertising department, along with their entire ignorant and arrogant sales, commision payed, force. I also pity anyone brainwashed by that 'sales force'.

arghx

iTrader: (3)

sounds like another spot to leak if you ask me

AllMotorRotor

I see a lot of negitive opinions with no facts backing up what they say. AMSOIL FILTERS ARE CRAP! Ya ok, where is YOUR proof?

There site specifically shows and tells you why other filters fail and why there filters last longer. Why drive 3000 miles with 40+ micron crap running through your engine?

I am going to be sending my oil out for annalysis just to see what is actually in it and the condition. So far their oil and filter combination has shown me the cleanest oil yet. Other oil and filter combos, the oil would be quite filthy by now. Its been close to 3000 miles.

You all say its another spot to leak. You guys don't know how to make a secure fitting or by the cheap hose and fittings? C'mon guys, you do something right you won't have to worry about it.

I was thinking about the dual oil mount kit but as I was looking at it, I specifically wanted to know the ID of the fittings it would need. They are 1/8" in diameter smaller then ours so that wouldn't work. The single should work but have thought about restricting the flow. Hence the comment I made about upgrading to a T2 oil pump.

Have you tested the oil? I run a tuned rebuild with slightly advanced timing. The only rich spot it has is around idle.

How micron can they filter down to? Are you talking about those cheap *** oil filters?

Not at idle or lower rpms. My oil pressure tops out at around 70psi.

My description makes this sound like a waste of money? You need to read the ACTUAL product description.

arghx

iTrader: (3)

What exactly are you hoping to accomplish here?

Change the oil every 2500 miles and you shouldn't have any kind of oil problems if your OMP and related stuff is working fine and has no leaks.

deadRX7Conv

What 40 micron crap? where's your proof? The typical particle count of ANY oil filter shows pretty good 10 micron and larger filtration. It the below 10 micron where ANY of the bypass filter kits shine. This means my walmart brand filter for <$3 does a pretty good job of keeping my oil clean. And, if I'm feeling rich and wasteful, I'll splurge on a Pureone, Mobil1, or Fram X2 filter, for that extra couple percent of filtration. No need to overpay for a filter and never change it to justify the cost(profit margin).

There is plenty of data at noria and theoildrop. You could learn a little there. And, industrial filtration puts auto oil filters to shame.

There are plenty of store/OEM filters that have excellent measured insoluble levels in UOAs. And, multiple particle counts of the Amsoil full flow $25 filter were NO BETTER then the $6 Purolator Pureone Micronic filter. Thats proof enough. The UOAs are posted in the filtration and oil forums at theoildrop.

Yes, I've have sent out oil samples. Rotary engines always show high fuel dilution. It simply can be blamed on running rich for safety. Surprisingly, many new cars are experiencing excessive time running rich. Most of it is for emissions tuning. Automakers are using A/F ratio to control NOx, and A/F ratio to control catalytic temperature to extend their life. We dump fuel for safety. They dump it for emissions longevity and PPMs. This is why extended oil changes need to be monitored closely by UOAs. And, a UOA cost more than an oil change. Guess which is better?

Toilet paper and ANY dense media filter will filter below 3 microns. BTW, TP, shredded newspaper, and paper towel filters have been in use for 80+ years. They are not CHEAP *** FILTERS. THEY ARE proven. Amsoil just grabs some overpriced synthetic media and goes to town with fancing advertising. Oh, it also been noticed the older BE media(cellulose) kept the oil 'looking' cleaner then the new synthetic bypass media. And, synthetic media can not catch or hold moisture, until it can be evaporated. Charge more and provide less. This is Amsoil's 3rd or 4th generation of bypass filters. They get more expensive each time and do less. Marketing sells to small minded people everytime. I know plenty of Amsoil bypass filter uses that are dumping their Amsoil units as they run out of 'BE' elements. The 'EaBP' are a step in the wrong direct. And, of course Amsoil won't give you a choice. Try to find bypass elements for the earlier bypass filters.

The benefit of synthetic media is that it flows better and holds more.
In a full flow application, what do you think holds more crap? 5 Pureone oil filters or 1 Amsoil EA0?
In a bypass application, flow is controlled by the orifice. So, there is NO benefit to synthetic media there.

BTW, I was an Amsoil sales rep. I have read, studied, and understand their information. I also have a very good understanding of the competitor products that are far superior.

I think that the thread starter is trying to accomplish super long oil change intervals. Feel free to post your UOAs here. I also wouldn't use a certain lab that is partnered with Amsoil. There numbers and comments are biased.

ericgrau

iTrader: (1)

Mazda's recommended oil drain interval for the RX-7 is 7500 miles, same as any other car. deadRX7Conv is just full of it, I don't even know where to begin. Just, "No", to all points, except that PureOne filters as well as AMS' filter (which is what I said in the first place). It's also really restrictive, unlike AMS and Mobil 1. That means the PureOne is likely to clog fast and not last very long. After clogging it'll trigger the internal bypass valve, leaving you with no filtration whatsoever. There is plenty of info out there for those of you who are curious on the details. Yes, you can save money by using other bypass filter brands if you're willing to custom fab all the plumbing.

As an engineer I don't put much credance in sales or marketing, either.

RETed

You're running an oil pressure sender at the oil cooler line???


So you're saying that you put up a FALSE description of the product?
Then you suck.

I dunno about your background, but I've torn down enough 13B's to inspect internal parts for oil lubrication problems.
You know what...unless the engine was thoroughly abused, there is nothing wrong with good oil change intervals and good, quality engine oils being used.

So, I'll say it again - IT'S A WASTE OF MONEY.

So you oil is filtered down to 1 micron.
Big whoopie.
Does it make the oil "better" than the rest of us?
Technically, yes.
Does it make a difference in a 13B in real world?
I put my money on NO.

BTW, I've seen a 13BT run on Amsoil 20W50 that stuck all over the insides of the rotor housing walls.
CRAP oil in my book.
I would never use ANY Amsoil product in my cars, PERIOD.


-Ted

deadRX7Conv

Eric, noone is mentioning Mazdas recommendation. Who cares what they recommend? Mazda also doesn't recommend all the mods we do anyway.
7.5k OCI's is a ticket to short engine life, especially for those that don't bother checking the oil enough during that long OCI.
Yep, I am full of it, knowledge that is. Since you can't prove anything I say wrong, what info did you provide here besides claiming I'm full of it? NOTHING!

Whether a filter clogs or not, whether is is restrictive or not, depends on the oil flow through the filter, and the crap getting into the oil from your engine.
Is there any proof that the Amsoil holds more or flows more then the Pureone, or any other filter?

BTW, I'm in the middle of UOA data collection of full flow filters used in my daily driver Toyota. So far, I have UOAs on ST, Motorcraft, & Pureone filters. Since I'm running each for 5k miles, it'll take me a year to test 4 more filters, M1, Ams, KN, Wix, and various cheapies in the future....... When I've completely gathered my data, I will share it. And, I will continue to use different filters until I run out of brands at the local stores. So far, for normal OCI usage, there isn't ANY reason to use a fancy oil filter.

ericgrau

iTrader: (1)

My claim is that you're making everything up, or recycling it from rumors. You want me to prove that? Um, no. Try proving something you've said. Anything. The OP asked about how to setup his system, not for someone to come in and rag on it. If you disagree with him, the burden of proof is on you. If you wanna go rant in the lounge or start a thread asking previous users of bypass systems whether or not it did anything, go ahead. I won't come in saying, "Ya, they work 100% sure" without showing why. Anyway point is I'm not gonna detract from the thread with a full on point-by-point side debate. I'm just gonna say you're pulling B.S. out of thin air and give the basic reason why somebody might want a bypass system (for those who have never heard of it). This topic has been discussed at length before and anyone who is curious can look it up.

OP: I'm not sure what you mean on how you want to set it up. You basically need to make sure that the oil takes two and only two seperate paths: one through the main filter and another through the bypass filter. It should not go through one first and then the other. Beyond that I don't think it should matter. And - as I said - the stock oil pump should work fine, b/c you are actually decreasing the resistance in the system (slightly) by providing an alternate path for the oil to take.

Ted: I highly doubt any oil, by itself, could do what you said. Even the cheapest oil. Heck, try to find any similar claims on google (about any oil). Probably another cause like poor maintenance. You'd have to give me some details. Fact is, even the cheapest API certified oil will do well. I don't disagree with that.

AllMotorRotor

Wow, you come off like a large ******* with no proof of anything. Tell me how you "inspect" for oil problems?

What do you mean by, stuck to the rotor housings? You want oil to "stick".

Also, are you checking oil pressure BEFORE the oil cooler or AFTER it?

Show me this? You seem to have some good info, especially about the fuel dilution, I never thought of that, but I did some research online and most filters are only about 15-20% efficient down at that point. EAO filters, I don't have any proof of them at 10 micron yet but at 15 micron they are 89% efficient. The PureOne filters do seem good but not as good as EAO filters.

could filter down that low? Im sure, are they efficient? From what I have read so far, which hasn't been much, they are not vary efficient.

You tell me. I bet that 1 amsoil filter could hold more with less effect on flow then 1 pureone filter.
I know the only benefit of a bypass filter is its filtering capability and not the flow.

Im not looking for more flow. I bet there is no real difference when they are new, but I do bet that once the filters start holding more and more crap, the pureone will allow less flow through the filter then the EAO filters.

Thank you. I was going to say this but I see it has already been said. I guess this is one of the benefits or the forum. You never get your question answered....

I was just thinking of going from the oil pressure sender hole and have the oil flow back into the engine at the oil filter pedistal. Was wondering if oil from the pedistal would try to backflow through the BP filter at all.

RETed

"Large *******".
Hmm...that's a new one.

Inspect for oil problems?
Just look at the bearings.
If you have a problem with visual inspection of layered bearings, then you need to go learn how.


Now you're looking stupid...
There was burnt residue on the rotor housing surface.
This causes the apex seal to chatter when the slide over those areas.
NOT a good thing.

I check my oil pressure how the STOCK system does - after the oil cooler, after the rear / main OPR.

You're the dumbass that asked about oil pressure AT THE OIL COOLER.
Here's YOUR quote:
The oil pressure at the oil cooler is in the neighborhood of 100psi to 150psi.
NOT 40psi, so you're already wrong there.


Geezus...
You sound like a troll who turned into a godamn informercial.

If you're going to defend this crap, then how's about this?

Most of the FC's are HIGH MILEAGE.
This means LOTS of blow-by.
Blow-by causes the oil to turn acidic.
This causes the "oil" to eat everything metal.
HOW THE **** DO YOU COMBAT THIS WITH A FILTER?

Now, how about the fact that most of these cars run RICH.
Lots of fuel get pushed into the oil.
This kills the oil's lubrication and protection through dilution.
HOW THE **** DO YOU COMBANT THIS WITH A FILTER?

So, if we're doing 3k oil changes...
I still stand with my original statement - IT'S A WASTE OF MONEY.


-Ted

AllMotorRotor

I had this backwards. I meant 98% efficient. Its actually almost 99%

AllMotorRotor

remind me not to send an engine to you for your cheap inspection.

Oh am I? You never said once that the rotor housings had "burnt residue". You said the oil stuck to the housings. Be a little more clear.

Also, were you running this 20/50 synthetic oil with the OMP operational? IF so, you again, dumb. If the OMP was not operational, then that engine had bad oil seals.

Your the dumbass that doesn't know how to read. I never said AT the oil cooler. I was giving you a direction and a side of the oil system to where I was talking about oil pressure.

My engine has no blow by. Its a rebuild. My old engine, yes that had **** tons of blow by. You trying to assume my engine has high millage even though I said it was a rebuild?

I would agree that on a high millage engine, that a bypass system would be worthless.

A lot more engines other then rotaries get fuel dilution. The fuel evaporates along with the moisture. Also the PCV system helps with this. Now the chemical destruction from the fuel is perminent, only oil testing will tell you how long your intervals can be.

On high milage engines, I wouldn't even think about extending the OCI.

I remember someone talking about oil shear and how a filter can't help with that. Well it can't and this is why the type/brand of oil is so vary important.

AllMotorRotor

I found this page below which states the EA0 filters are 50% efficient at 7 Micron.

http://www.ultimatesyntheticoil.com/...il_filters.htm

RETed

How else would you interpret that?
I did say "rotor housing".
Apex seal scrapes the entire inner surface of the rotor housing, so how the hell is oil going to stick there?


Ah, assumptions...assumptions.
I never said I did that.
I knew someone who did.
Thank you for calling them dumb.


Need I remind you what you wrote AGAIN:
You DID say "from the output of the oil cooler".
You never said WAY downstream from the output of the oil cooler.
I can interpret "output of the oil cooler" to the fittings on the oil cooler exit.

You told me above "Be a little more clear" - I think you could use your own advice here.


"No blow by"?
Bullshit.
What were your clearances / tolerances?
Used parts are going to have looser clearances - did you measure them?

Also, a fresh rebuild is going to have tons of blow-by cause the seals haven't broken in yet.

So what do you have?
A freshly rebuild engine that hasn't been broken in yet?
Or, a rebuild that uses old parts with loose clearances?
Either way, there is no such thing as "no blow by".


Bullshit.
A proper "PCV" system actually hinders "evaporation".
It's under pressure.
Vent the "crankcase" to atmosphere, and you might have a case.
BTW, it's p-e-r-m-a-n-e-n-t.


-Ted

AllMotorRotor

I asked a question and did not assume. There are two choices and you did not choose either one.

There should always be a tiny film between the apex seal and rotor housing, otherwise the engine will fail. Why do you think we need to premix or have the OMP operational?

Don't try to cover your tracks. I never said AT the oil cooler, I said exactly what I said, the output side of the oil cooler meaning that side of the oil system.
I suppose I could have been more clear for folks like you.

I guess there was no option for a fresh rebuild that was broken in.

It is vented to the atmosphere and I have the PCV which does actually still help.
I see, every forum has their spell checkers as another "self defense" method to make them look better. Sorry kid.

For any of you that care. Here is a site that tested the Purolator Micron filter. Compair those results with EAo filters
http://www.mr2.com/TEXT/oil_filter_test.html

I guess I won't get any answers from this board about this. I don't know who Reted thinks he is, but so far he knows nothing about this subject.

RETed

Are you trying to imply the apex seal never makes contact with the rotor housing?
Like in a journal bearing floating on an oil film?
Be careful what you're trying to imply...


Funny, now you're the one arguing about symantics.


I'm still waiting for the tolerances you used on the parts?


As typing is the main interface for which we communicate with, I do - actually - put an honest effort into my spelling and grammar.
Ignoring that fact either makes you stupid or lazy.
Kid?
Gawd, you can't be older than I am?
I'm 38, how about you?


Yes, when all else fails, and you can't back your claims, disrepute the antagonist and call them an ignoramous.

IBTL!


-Ted

AllMotorRotor

You have not put one ounce of facts in this thread since you first posted. I was just asking about the plumbing portion of the filter, instead I got BS. Regaurdless who likes or doesn't like the idea, the question should have been answered by someone who could answer it and not by others who just wanted to bitch that its worthless or especially have someone like you come in that doesn't give any info to back his claims up and just spreads ****.

Im done in this thread, this is rediculous.