RotaryRocket88

iTrader: (7)

You realize the stage 2 Rteks allow for complete remapping of the timing tables in both stock-style load based form and also MAP based? How exactly does this differ from a true standalone that requires you to make your own map from scratch as well?

*TOUCH*

iTrader: (29)

haha well said and no offense taken, i didnt design it, just bought it haha.

but seriously, its not bad for a slightly to moderately modded fc. i would think it would be good for up to the low 300hp range, but it definately isnt perfect, even for a stock seven...still has issues, thats why i wanna upgrade to something better.

also, on another note, anyone see anything wrong with a 550/800cc combo being able to produce a high 11 afr reading @ 12 psi with all my other mods? or does that seem normal (i dunno, thats why im asking haha). im just curious cuz i have had the sneaking suspicion that they are actually larger (p[ossibly 1000cc) since the negative correction i have had to implement at low rpms seems alot more than it should with 800ccs on a 720cc preset (should be something like a 10% neg correction and its more like low 20s depending on vac and rpm). anyways, just a question.. also, if those are actually 800ccs, you guys think an 800/1000cc combo would be sufficient or what about a 800/1200cc? i just dont wanna buy too big and have a pain with them again....only reason i bought the 1600s, which come to think of it, they are actually bosch 1680ccs, was because of the incredible deal i got on them.

thanks

*TOUCH*

iTrader: (29)

the timing tuning is great, minus the annoyingly long setup/remapping process that has to be done on the palm in the car (sucks if its hott out haha).

the main thing i have had problems with is the fuel tuning. its just simply not flexible enough. all in all tho, the rtek is good for what it is, a $500 complete plug and play "adjustable" ECU.

arghx

iTrader: (3)

It wouldn't be fair to compare it to true standalones, and it's not marketed as such.

RotaryRocket88

iTrader: (7)

Well, yeah. You're using big *** 1600cc injectors, so the +-37% isn't enough to lean out the top end, as was mentioned. Also, if/when you get appropriately sized secondaries, drop the secondary transtion point down to something like 3000 - 3200 RPM. The stock 3800 RPM transisition is too high.

One of the advantages of the Rtek stage 2 that some people overlook is how freaking easy it is to tune. Having stock maps to start with and tweak is priceless. Yet you can still toss almost everything and start from scratch as well.

*TOUCH*

iTrader: (29)

true, true. thats why i said it is great for a moderately modded car. you start making the amounts of power that require larger injectors and stuff gets funky haha.

also, my transition point is lowered. i originally had it set at 3594rpm to coincide with one of the fuel/rpm cels that you input the correction value, but they stll werent coming on until ~4k rpm. i had to adjust it down to about 3200rpm and now they come on around 3500rpm. i read in a post somewhere where turbo2ltr (rtek subforum mod and i think a pocketlogger employee/developer) said that the transition point is the *earliest possible* rpm that the secondaries will come on at, but that is only if all other conditions are met. i assume load, manifold pressure and tps% are the other conditions...? ill find the thread and post it up.

*TOUCH*

iTrader: (29)

here it is:

https://www.rx7club.com/rtek-forum-168/secondary-staging-issue-844350/

in post 5 he says:

RotaryRocket88

iTrader: (7)

Yeah, I started that thread. The problems I was having with the injectors coming on after my staging point were cured by the latest build of their software. I have logs showing them coming on at just after 3100 RPM now, which is the point I set.

*TOUCH*

iTrader: (29)

o, ok, good to know. i believe i have the latest but probably not haha

RotaryEvolution

iTrader: (30)

the difference is, for example, that other standalones come with either 0 map at all or such a rich based and conservative map that you almost can't pop your motor. the microtechs you usually can't even get into boost because you are having raw fuel out of the tailpipe and timing that is modest even for aggressive builds.

you tossed my customer to the wolves with the first release of the v2.0 and still defend it(understandably) but if i have to get aggressive to point out possible issues i will. first is you should have reloadable maps with the ECU, one for stock cars and one that is just modest enough to get the car started so it can be tuned back with time and learning. he wanted to learn tuning, unfortunately i couldn't go over everything about the ECU with him and with the default maps i could foresee alot of motors getting destroyed by inexperience unless you have changed the maps that you send out now with the ECU's. fuel adjustments are easy, a monkey can do it, timing is what really kills most rotaries once in boost. the V2.0 is just comfortable enough to give most people the impression that everything will be fine, until they hit peak torque curve and wonder why their motor sounds like a paint can shaker. paste red letters on your product or something that anything above a stock setup needs an experienced tuner, whatever you have to do to make people understand.

*TOUCH*

iTrader: (29)

it is VERY true that the timing maps preloaded to the rtek are agressive as hell and borderline unsafe by any measure. not to mention that the adjustments of those maps are time consuming, tedious and down right annoying (again, especially since one needs the palm hooked to the ecu with the car on (at least in accessory f not running) and this ca suck if you have no AC and its hot out like it was when i did mine. took me at least 2.5 hours of sweating to do both the leading and split maps haha. it lacks a good interface with a pc or laptop and all the benefits that come iwth that. PLUS, (one of the biggest probs compared to true standalones) it lacks the ability to hok up auxilary monitoring/logging inputs (wideband O2 and EGT most specifically). plus theres lot of cool **** you cant do that you can with stanalones, your still relying on a 20 yr old harness/sensors in most cases and lots of rotary tuners dont like/wont tune them. of course there is theflexibility isse with the fuel. the rtek is simply not designed to handle large injectors and other characteristics of high power setups, which is ok since i dont believe its advertised as such.

now, with all that said, i will repeat that i still beleive that its a great tool and mod for slightly to moderately modded cars. hybrid turbos, exhaust, larger injectors (up to a certain point) etc etc, typical stuff. it has a attainable price point for guys doing these kinds of mods, installs with direct plug and play with no modification, gives you alot more control over the vehicle,and more than jst fuel and timing, shows error codes which we all kno s4s dont have CELs (dunno about s5) and is for the most part user friendly.

karack, you are absolutely right tho, the timing could and probably has cost alot of ppl motors and alot of money, so i do think that there should be some sort of disclaimer about having xperienced tuners do this.

arghx

iTrader: (3)

read the instructions dude, it has two inputs

RotaryRocket88

iTrader: (7)

On an Rtek 2.1, all you do is select the MAP based timing option, and voila, you get to make the timing map all by yourself. *Touch* even said he did this already, so the problems he had aren't even related to the stock timing tables. And anyone naive enough to plug the thing in and start driving around at WOT, regardless of their turbo setup, deserves to lose an engine, and should not be tuning anything. The maps pre-programmed are the maps from the stock ECU with small tweaks. It's not something pocketlogger went and designed with the intent of blowing engines lol. As with a standalone, the user needs to read the manual & FAQ, which will explain exactly what the initial setup is. It's not a full standalone; it bridges the gap between the stock ECU and a standalone.

What is this? Some e-mail you sent to pocketlogger? I don't work for them; I just happen to be a user of the product. It seems there's a whole lot of ignorance about the stage 2 that can easily be cured by reading up on it beforehand. Hell, I knew exactly how to use the thing & what limitations it had before I even bought it. Reading the instructions and asking the manufacturer questions is important.

*TOUCH*

iTrader: (29)

arghx! dude i was so thinking aboput that after i posted. i was like "wait....i think you can hook up your WBO2!!!" thanks for clearing that up man.

im not sure that i agree w/ this. losing a motor is traumatic man haha. but realistically, some ppl would like the rtek just for the control over fuel, logging capabilities and such and maybe not mess with the timing, but i agree, they still need to be aware and have someone knowledgeable mess with it if they are going to tinker with timing or not

RotaryRocket88

iTrader: (7)

Well, maybe they don't deserve to blow it, but it'd absolutely be no one's fault but their own. There are warnings all over the manual telling the user that is has the ability to blow the engine if they don't know what they're doing. A standalone will come with this same sort of responsibility. You can blow an engine with either one, so you had better know exactly how to use it beforehand.

The stock timing is designed for the stock turbo, which runs out of breath up top. A hybrid like yours won't do that; it will still be making torque up to redline. There's a dramatic difference between using a stock turbo with the Rtek and using a larger hybrid, and that needs to be accounted for.

Then on the fuel side of things, the largest injector size you should be running is 1000cc, since that is ~38% larger than a 720cc injector, and you have +-37% control. 800/1000 should be plenty of fuel for your turbo. You can compare it to the guys using BNR stage 3s and 4s, which have the same 60-1 compressor wheel. The BNR thread in the dyno section has a lot of useful info on the setups people use to run large hybrids. Also, once you get your W/B input connected to your sensor, you'll have a much better idea about the AFRs. Looking at the gauge while driving isn't nearly as useful as having everything plotted on a graph, so you can compare factors like RPM, injector D/C, secondary staging, etc... And the Rtek will typically have a faster response time than your gauge, so it will show changes you may miss while driving.

arghx

iTrader: (3)

I will say this regarding Karack's comments: PocketLogger could have covered their *** by supplying some really conservative, idiot-proof basemaps. I suppose then people would get overconfident and still do stupid stuff to blow their motor.

The problem is that map swapping is not easy because of the lack of a laptop interface.

*TOUCH*

iTrader: (29)

+1^^

another problem i noticed (which may just be my palm and not the rtek) is that when i tried to load saved settings (timing/fuel maps, ecu configuration etc) it would take avery long time, eventually freezing and showing an error code on the palm, resulting in a really effed up map being set in and me having to go back and replot the whole thing since i couldnt load my saved one. like i said, i tihnk this has to do with my palm tho...hell it was $40 shipped and it holds a charge so i guess i shouldnt complain haha

*TOUCH*

iTrader: (29)

ok guys, since i have gotten so much great advice and info in this thread from all of you, im gonna ask this here instead of creating another thread.

the car was fine, pulling hard with slightly leaner afrs than i like (up to low 12s) under boost, but not "pinging" like it was before. now, today im driving and am in 3rd gear, about 3000rpms, ~7 or 8 lbs of boost, high 11 AFRs. my **** makes the ping again! this time worse than before, multiple pings in very quick succession...anyways, i get home, now its idleing rough...i go over eveything, fuel press, oil level, coolant level, just all kinds of stuff since i was under the hood. i decide to check the timing, see if it remains where i set it before (lined up via the fsm procedure). i find something really effed up: my timing is jumping back and forth!!! its flashing at the right spot, them also about 10-15* BTDC (this is on the L1 wire). the only thing i can think is that i have a fouled plug and its causing it to misfire, causing the jump in timing. does this sound logical??

RotaryRocket88

iTrader: (7)

What is the idle speed at? It'll need to be under ~1k RPM, or the ECU will advance timing on its own. Also, it sounds like you're using a timing light for this. You can select lead and trailing timing parameters in the "log" menu and watch them on your palm.

*TOUCH*

iTrader: (29)

yea, its under 1k (~850) and yes, im using the timing light. rtek shows 20*ATDC for leading and 5* degrees ATDC for trailing. SOLID on the rtek, jumpy on the light

RotaryRocket88

iTrader: (7)

What happens if you swap the timing light over to L2? Maybe it's just a poor inductance connection you had. If the CAS were stabbed wrong, the Rtek would still show 20*/5*, but then your timing light would consistently show the timing off. It wouldn't jump back and forth.

What are the lead/trailing timing values in your tables at 3000 RPM & 8 psi? Have you logged timing data during a drive and compared it to what you input before? Maybe post a .PDB log, if you have one already. Or if not, pull some more timing in the mid-rpm range (for safety) and log the data to see if it looks like it should. Just log anything important: RPM, TPS, injector D/C, AFRs (if connected), airflow, secondaries, lead & trailing timing, etc...

*TOUCH*

iTrader: (29)

ok, small update here (sorry i havent posted in a bit, havent been able to mes with the car till today.) i drove the car and took logs and everything is fine, no pinging or anything, but when i ceck the timing at idle it still flashing in two diferent places. this is on both L1 and L2. also, the idle seems to be surgeing. it will hold @ 850, drop down to about 500 and stumble for a sec and surge back to 850, hold for a sec, repeat prcess....im gonna pull the plugs out tommorow, any ideas whats happening guys??

RotaryRocket88

iTrader: (7)

Surging is usually a vac leak or TPS issue, but I guess a bad series of misfires could look similar. You have been running excessively rich up top, so plug fouling isn't that much of a stretch.

Also, going back to your pinging around 3k, you're running 550cc primaries now, right? I don't know how responsive your turbo is in that RPM range, but the injectors will probably be maxing out before the secondaries come on, which could lead to a brief lean condition. Then of course your 1600cc secondaries come on and make it run extra rich at 3500+ RPM (that's your setting, right?).

The reason I suggest it is because I was able to max out 550cc primaries with the stock turbo pretty easily, but it would be at about 3300-3700 RPM with a stock-ish secondary set point. As I mentioned before, a lower transition point will help normally, but with those 1600cc secondaies it may be just as bad (except too rich instead of too lean).

arghx

iTrader: (3)

you know there are two timing marks right?

*TOUCH*

iTrader: (29)

haha of course i do. i have only my leading mark marked with a paint pen, the trailing is only marked by the factory indention, so the timing light doesnt pick that up.

rotary rocket, yea, my tps igood, its within spec as far as resistance and has no dead spots (via analog mulitimeter). i thought about a vac leak and was unable to locate one. possibly leaky injector?? just trying to sort out all possibilities altho either way im pulling the plugs tommorow. as far as the injectors, curretly im running a 550/800 (altho i think they are really 1000ccs) setup with the transition point @ 3000 to elminate the lean spot untill i can get a 720/1000 setup.

thanks so much so far guys.