Black13B

iTrader: (1)

2 things I wanted to touch base on. Two different types of Castrol 2 stoke offered:

People generally swear by 2-stroke Outboard Motor Oil by Castrol.

Castrol also offers 2-stroke Snowmobile Motor Oil. Made for higher revving engines. I know that's a generalization, but would the works of a rotary produce the same effects of a Snowmobile or an Outboard boat motor?

IMO, it's better suited using the Snowmobile premix, but..

What do you guys think?

Amur_

And you got this info where?


I've been using the Castrol Super Outboard Motor Oil for a year. Last week I went to buy another 4 liter jug of it, but there were none on the shelf. The Castrol Super Snowmobile Oil was there, instead. I looked over the jug, and bought it.

Nowhere on the packaging, nor at the website, is there any remark about this oil being for "higher revving engines."

This stuff looks the same, pours the same and smells the same as the Super Outboard goop. The only substantial difference that I can see is the writing on the jug promises that the oil will "readily flow at temperatures to minus 40."

Where did you get "higher revving" from?

TulsaTurbo

Using a metering pump adapter may be an option for some. See link:
http://www.needfulthings.net/cgi-bin...ST;f=45;t=1213

Icemark

But has outboard or snowmobile 2 stroke been tested for emissions???

Since both boats and snowmobiles have only the most rudimentary (if at all) emissions systems.

1987RX7guy

iTrader: (3)

Well I have never thought of researching on that. But given that it burns cleaner and more completly than 4 stroke I could only think that is it better for emmissions. But that wouldn't be fact only my feeling about it.

Santiago

RotaryRevn

I was always told rotary plugs should be changed every 20k or 30k? This was for my 85 gsl-se. I belive the recommended changing for pist-on motors is more like 60k.

Black13B

iTrader: (1)

It's on there. At least it's on my label. And yes it is Castrol Snowmobile 2 stroke. Perhaps you or myself has an older jug label purchased? Don't know.

And as for the comment on how it looks and smells the same, the same method of comparison would render 5w30 and 15w40 the same, no?

You are and have used both, and I guess it doesn't make any type of difference? Otherwise you would have mentioned.

Too bad you don't still have outboard left over.. Possibly try a plug comparison or something between both types.. Even then that wouldn't be a very good means of comparison..

Meh. I'm sure it's essentially the same stuff.

Perhaps I should ask the difference between the two on a snowmobile forum or boat forum..

NoPistons4Chris

wow i want to bump this because it's so long and informative

RETed

How could I have missed this one???


You sound like the type that would argue to the ends of the earth to discredit ANY proof.  You sound like you want some multi million dollar testing just to prove or disprove your point of view.  I'm sorry to disappoint you, but I don't have the time nor the money to comply with your satisfaction at this point in my life.


No, I think it has more to do with the fact that you don't want to give me the benefit of the doubt on this point (or any other point for that matter).


This sure sounds like a long-shot argument...


I agree, but I attribute this to:
1) Harder side iron surfaces
2) Thinner side seal surface
3) Harder side seal material
4) Softer side seal spring rate
5) Less heat from combustion


Please read how a 2stroke engine works and why it requires this special oil.  If the 2stroke motor didn't need special lubrication requirements, why aren't we throwing in regular 4stroke stuff?


Sure, eliminate my theory and look for an alternate...


We've run the ratios down to about 50:1 and still no significant smoking out the exhaust is apparant.  To be mixing richer ratios is either due to ignorance or stupidity.


Since when "performance" = "more power"?


You'd make a good lawyer/politician.


KDR.


That's exactly what Mazda thought.


Mazda got it right with the Kouki FD3S (99+) with just one oil injector per rotor.


Mazda has also said *on the record* that the stock OMP system was design for less hassles for the consumer versus pre-mixing, although they were aware of the superiority of pre-mixing.


If you want to run around with more carbon, be my guest.  I prefer less carbon inside my engine myself.


See above.



See above - the problem with the Zenki FD3S is the bad design of the oil injectors.  Engine running under (heavy) vacuum pulled oil out of the oil injector under (heavy) decel.  Mazda fixed this problem by making the orifice diameter smaller and with a special rubber "plug".


It depends on your definition of "cleaner".


Go look up the definition of "blow by".


Yep, see above.


Oh gawd...


See above


I've done this several times, but you're not accepting it that way.


See above


"Stubborn" is RIGHT.


Several well-known vendors (i.e. Pettit) offer pre-mix for rotary owners.  I guess they are "wrong" also.


-Ted

NoPistons4Chris

Well, one of the main arguements pointed out is that if "premixing" is superior to oil injection, why didn't mazda do it this way in the renesis? Honestly, do you know how many lazy people are out there that forget to check their oil when they fill up. Imagine the chaos mazda would have to encounter if they had premixing as a 'convenience' to their customers. The agruement that mazda choses to stay with oil injection because it's superior can't be based on actual facts. The reason being is simple marketing strategy of selling comfort and luxary. Do you honestly think mazda sales of 8's and past 7's would have stayed as efficient as it was if they told their consumers that they 'need to premix' every fill up? That's just my .02 cents. Seems like simple understanding fact on that point. On the other points Ted has pointed out, he has alot of facts that make alot of sense, especially if a vendor like Pettit would offer premix for rotary owners. Would they really offer something like that so it can ruin their name?

-Chris

JasonL

Why isn't this in the archives?

Philip_g

Cool, thank you!
I have the engine apart for a rebuild now so this should take like an hour

cbrock

iTrader: (1)

BTW, it took 3 dimes to fill in the void that the OMP left behind. When you pull off the pump, you'll see a shaft that has a small male key to *plug* into the front housing. The dimes fit around an outer ring and do not rub against the gear. Don't know if it's really needed, but I do know that the gear has 0 chance of walking in and out. A little rtv, the block off plate and you're done.

Icemark

A copy of it is... its just people keep bringing it back to life here instead of just letting it die like it should.

There will always be three camps on this...

One that believes pre-mix and no MOP is the way to go

Another than believes that stock is best

And another that wants more HP or engine life and thinks or wants or hopes this mod to provide all the answers to their concerns.

And in each and every case of those three, there are advantages and disadvantages, and the opinion of the others will seldom change.

1987RX7guy

iTrader: (3)

Well I have never seen the copy of this thread in there.

In any case I really didn't make the thread way back when I did to say that pre-mix was better or worse than the MOP but I truely beleive that it is. It just doesn't make sense that mazda would ask their buyers to go out and have to buy two stroke for every fill up. The only other source of lubricant is the crank case so they used that as a substitute. I think I can just say this: with aa 128:1 ratio per tank compared to the mop the amount of lubricant going onto the seals/chamber is substantially increased. More lubricant means more protection from wear plain and simple.


Santiago

PS- The TII is going on the two stroke bottle as soon as my new microtech arrives.

andrew lohaus

yeah, after reading this thread, reted's defence of premix, and kevin lander's first-hand testimonials, i have decided to convert mine. i baisicaly am a little afraid of the fact that my OMP is only injecting at something like a 1:1000 ratio if not less! (i only use one quart per 3000 miles, or about 150 gallons!!!!!) and half of that might be from a leaky oil pan. just doesnt seem like enough for me and my driving style. besides my motor only has about 30k on it, still has good compression and i want to do everyhting i can to keep it that way.

TantricScorpio

I just took off my OMP today and I made my own block-off plat out of 1/4 inch steel. I didn't have time to read this whole thread so I was wondering, until tomorrow what do I need to do with the vacuum line and the oil lines. Tomorrow I'll take off the UIM and all to get to the oil injectors. I don't have time tonight. So what do I do with the oil lines and the vacuum line?

Amur_

They aren't going to hurt anything just sitting there. Might as well leave them alone until you can remove everything at once.

rexman13b

iTrader: (7)

another pre-mix writeup, WTF, how boring.

TantricScorpio

Amur, thanks for letting me know. I just wanted to be sure that I didn't mess anything up. So far everything is holding up, no leaks or anything.

JLB

This has been an interesting post (although long!) to read since I just last weekend switched my '91 NA over to pre-mix. I went from the stock fuel injection to a standalone, and quite frankly did not want to deal with pulling the crank pulley and front cover to swap to an S4 mechanical setup. Instead, I pulled the shaft out of a spare electronic OMP, used 4 bolts to plug the outlets, and then bolted it back on to cap the hole in the cover off.

I had been debating over the change for many years now - and 2 vehicles. Here are some points that haven't been mentioned yet:

Nobody has mentioned the actual mechanism that spreads the lubricant (injected or premixed) to the seals. The apex and side seals have a loose fit in the rotors. This is NOT a perfect, airtight seal by any means. As the intake charge is compressed you can bet that there is a certain amount of leakage at about every point in the sealing system. Even the the interface between the apex seal and the rotor housing is not a perfect seal - there will be some (negligable compared to the total volume of the intake charge) blowby and therefor oil transferred to the sealing surfaces. There will be even greater pressures and blowby from combustion pressure. I have no concern that the premix oil is not getting to all the wear points on the seals.

Has anyone looked into the oils designed specifically for air-cooled 2 cycles? They tend to operate with outrageous cylinder temperatures since the heat transfer directly to the air is not going to be as effective as liquid cooling. My vintage aircooled dirtbikes see some scary temperatures when ambient is in the 90's or above, yet there is always an oil film on the cylinder, piston, etc when you dismantle it. This is running at a 50:1 ratio.

Another dirtbike point - going down long grades it is perfectly acceptable to use the engine as a brake - and no fuel (or oil) is going in with the throttle closed.

Here is another thought. Mazdas are not the only application of the rotary engine. They are, however, one of the few rotary applications that does not use premixed fuel. Sachs snowmobile engines, lawnmowers, model airplane engines, outboard motors, chainsaws, etc all have similar sealing matrixes yet rely on premixed lubrication. Granted, these were mostly products of the past, but they did exist. Mazda's choice for lubrication had to be decided by one important factor - they couldn't expect consumers to bother with premixing, and there is no easy way to ensure proper ratios by injecting the oil into the fuel supply. You can't pump it into a float bowl on a carb and know you're getting the proper ratio, nor can you pump it into a fuel injector that has a constantly bypassing flow.

I think the oil metering pump was an excellant solution to the problem - and that's why I've always run them. The main reason for switching to premix for me was having to work around an S5 OMP, plus I do feel 2 cycle oil is better suited to the job.

Oh - just as a sidenote - I have about 4 cans of 1960's vintange "ARTIC CAT ROTO_LUBE" premix on my shelf in the garage from when my dad had a snowmobile with a one rotor Sachs in it.

Jason

nashman69g

iTrader: (3)

Wow, its cool to see that someone used my same method of filling that void....$.30 fix and your done!!

TantricScorpio

When I put the bolts in that plug the injector holes, I noticed That 1987RX&GUY said that you need 4 10mm x 1.0 bolts. I do not have a TII motor and it took the 10mm x 1.25 bolts. Just thought that might shed some light on what bolts are needed to fill the iol injector holes.

1987RX7guy

iTrader: (3)

I forgot what bolts I used but the ones that I did use we posted up. If you have different thread pitch maybe there are different versions of oil injectors or something.

TantricScorpio

My car is an 86' n/a, but the rebuilt motor that I put in it is an 88' block. I just thought that people would like to know.