oil control rings look mint, turbo verified fine, yet burns oil..
06-23-09, 07:56 PM
#1
oil control rings look mint, turbo verified fine, yet burns oil..
Car - S4 tII stock ports, rebuilt engine approx 8 thousand miles ago.
After awhile it started burning more and more oil. I always assumed it was the turbo but even at start up it would blow flumes of blue smoke and every couple hundred miles I'd have to add a quart of oil or 2. this lead me to believe it was the oil control rings. (even though i had no idea why they would have gone bad) I put my friends s4 turbo off his car and put it on mine and saw no difference, still smoked.
I tore the engine down and inspected the rings.. I can't find anything wrong with them nor the o-rings inside, they are still stretchy and round. i cant think of another source for the oil to be coming from..
After awhile it started burning more and more oil. I always assumed it was the turbo but even at start up it would blow flumes of blue smoke and every couple hundred miles I'd have to add a quart of oil or 2. this lead me to believe it was the oil control rings. (even though i had no idea why they would have gone bad) I put my friends s4 turbo off his car and put it on mine and saw no difference, still smoked.
I tore the engine down and inspected the rings.. I can't find anything wrong with them nor the o-rings inside, they are still stretchy and round. i cant think of another source for the oil to be coming from..
06-24-09, 12:20 PM
#3
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This might be out there, but I had the same problem right after rebuilding and it turned out that where the oil injector goes into the housing wasn't doing a slow drip, but doing a pour. I found it by blowing carb cleaner into the injector holes and one of them was passing a whole lot more cleaner than the other one. Just a suggestion.
06-25-09, 01:54 AM
#5
What is your side-seal to corner-seal clearance? I got a lot of blowby and burned oil with an average clearance of about 5.5 thousandths of an inch on my old motor, which is technically in spec. When I rebuilt it I bought new side seals and clearanced them to 2 thousandths. The first time I started the engine up it smoked less and burned less oil than my old motor did starting up after thousands of miles.
06-25-09, 02:21 PM
#6
My side seal clearance is absolutely horrible! I didn't pay any attention to it, if I remember right the Atkins rebuild video didn't say anything about how to clearance them or anything about tolerances. my mistake for not looking into it or missing it, I just made them "fit" Careless of me.
I could see black where blow by was at the apexes of the rotor where the side and corner seals meet. The fattest feeler gauge I think it was .030 fit loosely! Whereas .002 is idea! I knew this had a lot to do with my compression issues along with the scoring and for some reason chatter on the housings, but I didn't know it had anything to do with burning of oil. I thought the rings handled that solely. The scoring on the housings I speculate is because of my oil injectors or pump not working for 2k miles before I deleted them and started premixing. In addition I think I over heated my engine 1 too many times and the chatter on the housings may have been because of semi flat apex seals, although I didn't have a new set to compare the spring tension to nor the shape. So I ordered new. Along with corner seal springs and oil o-rings and of course side seals.
When I took the oil pan off it looked like metal shaving, they were hard and abundant. but once I got closer I noticed it was the factory paint the oil pan was painted with! This leads me to believe the over heating may have been partly to me relocating my oil cooler due to my v mount. The oil may have been way too hot. I don’t know if it’s common for these coatings to flake so bad? I don’t have an oil temp gauge so I don’t know the temps, but I will for the next startup.
Needless to say this was one unhealthy engine. I don’t know how it lasted so long. Without hailers hot start mod I wouldn’t of been able to even get it to start often enough to use it as a DD.
I could see black where blow by was at the apexes of the rotor where the side and corner seals meet. The fattest feeler gauge I think it was .030 fit loosely! Whereas .002 is idea! I knew this had a lot to do with my compression issues along with the scoring and for some reason chatter on the housings, but I didn't know it had anything to do with burning of oil. I thought the rings handled that solely. The scoring on the housings I speculate is because of my oil injectors or pump not working for 2k miles before I deleted them and started premixing. In addition I think I over heated my engine 1 too many times and the chatter on the housings may have been because of semi flat apex seals, although I didn't have a new set to compare the spring tension to nor the shape. So I ordered new. Along with corner seal springs and oil o-rings and of course side seals.
When I took the oil pan off it looked like metal shaving, they were hard and abundant. but once I got closer I noticed it was the factory paint the oil pan was painted with! This leads me to believe the over heating may have been partly to me relocating my oil cooler due to my v mount. The oil may have been way too hot. I don’t know if it’s common for these coatings to flake so bad? I don’t have an oil temp gauge so I don’t know the temps, but I will for the next startup.
Needless to say this was one unhealthy engine. I don’t know how it lasted so long. Without hailers hot start mod I wouldn’t of been able to even get it to start often enough to use it as a DD.
06-25-09, 07:45 PM
#7
One thing that impresses me about these motors is how long they actually do last when they are not put together very well. When you get a good 2 to 3 thousandth clearance, the side seals fit in there snugly but they still move up and down smooth and don't bind. You can tell a sloppy clearance because they are "too easy" to put in the groove.
Take a look at the rebuild and inspection procedures in the service manual again. It's a good idea to use the shop manual in addition to the videos etc. The shop manual says a couple things I don't like, like use vaseline on the coolant seals. But most of the stuff is on point.
Take a look at the rebuild and inspection procedures in the service manual again. It's a good idea to use the shop manual in addition to the videos etc. The shop manual says a couple things I don't like, like use vaseline on the coolant seals. But most of the stuff is on point.
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07-31-09, 02:03 AM
#8
Rebuilt the engine with new oil o-rings and new side seals with .002 -.003 clearances. Additionally I went ahead and got new apex and side seal springs.
Started it up and smokes worse than it did previously (probably due to modifying the oil pressure regulators)
I pulled the plugs after about 30 minutes of idling and I saw fresh shiny oil all over them.. I was hoping the new o-rings would solve my problem but the only other thing i can think of that it could be is the irons unfortunately, I don't have another set. -Anyone want to hook me up with a deal?-
I've been curious as to how many people have had oil ring issues as in issues with the oil control RINGS not the o-rings. Mine did not seem scratched or warped.. Do they warp? Is this common?
Lastly. I’ve found the cost of lapping irons, but does anyone know what it costs to re-nitride them and who does it?
Started it up and smokes worse than it did previously (probably due to modifying the oil pressure regulators)
I pulled the plugs after about 30 minutes of idling and I saw fresh shiny oil all over them.. I was hoping the new o-rings would solve my problem but the only other thing i can think of that it could be is the irons unfortunately, I don't have another set. -Anyone want to hook me up with a deal?-I've been curious as to how many people have had oil ring issues as in issues with the oil control RINGS not the o-rings. Mine did not seem scratched or warped.. Do they warp? Is this common?
Lastly. I’ve found the cost of lapping irons, but does anyone know what it costs to re-nitride them and who does it?
07-31-09, 11:42 AM
#11
oil filler nipple is open to atmosphere. nipple on middle iron is blocked, i assumed if 1 or the other is not blocked then it should be fine. same as we did my friends and hes not having smoking issues. didn't replace the springs they felt pretty springy.
07-31-09, 12:22 PM
#14
i dont have the fsm on this computer, but iirc, you measure the width from
here
]>------------------<[
to here
and then the installed height.
i just know the oil system is the one part of the motor build you won't know how it's gonna turn out until you start the car. compared to you can spin the motor to hear for compression and you can pressurize the coolant channels to make sure you dont have a pinched seal before you put a motor in. it makes checking all the points of the oil system that more important.
here
]>------------------<[
to here
and then the installed height.
i just know the oil system is the one part of the motor build you won't know how it's gonna turn out until you start the car. compared to you can spin the motor to hear for compression and you can pressurize the coolant channels to make sure you dont have a pinched seal before you put a motor in. it makes checking all the points of the oil system that more important.
10-11-09, 12:28 AM
#18
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I look forward to hearing if you find the cause.
I have the same problem. Long story, but in short it took 4 rebuilds to get a non smoker. All but the 4th was pooling oil in the rear rotor housing overnight.
At this point, the only common parts used in the smokey motors is the rotating assy, although oil control casings & o-rings were swapped out for 1 of the builds unsucessfully resolving the problem.
At this point I suspect a lazy oil control spring otherwise it could only be the rotor itself or maybe the e-shaft.
Have to get the car ready for an event next weekend so no more engine diagnosis until after then, just glad to get a runner into it in time...
I have the same problem. Long story, but in short it took 4 rebuilds to get a non smoker. All but the 4th was pooling oil in the rear rotor housing overnight.
At this point, the only common parts used in the smokey motors is the rotating assy, although oil control casings & o-rings were swapped out for 1 of the builds unsucessfully resolving the problem.
At this point I suspect a lazy oil control spring otherwise it could only be the rotor itself or maybe the e-shaft.
Have to get the car ready for an event next weekend so no more engine diagnosis until after then, just glad to get a runner into it in time...
10-14-09, 01:10 AM
#19
If I am understanding what you're saying correctly.. you replaced the oil control ring carriers and o-rings in a previous attempt to solve the oil burning issues and it still burnt oil correct? Just to get this straight. The way you put it, it sounds like you did not replace the oil ring springs at the same time as the carriers and o rings, you didn’t replace the springs until the current successful attempt? if so maybe in the springs lie the problem.. i have not replaced mine. I assumed them fine then again come to think of it I think my oil temps were abnormally high the majority of the engines life. The fault being my own wich is another story. High oil temps might weaken oil ring springs without showing signs of wear? Hmm it’s a theory..
Of course on the build that did not smoke you probably replaced more than 1 rotating component which makes it hard to track just exactly what the culprit was if it was in the rotating assembly. Could you give me a list of the rotating assembly components you replaced on the successful attempt? i had thought about the rotors themselves somehow being the culprit or perhaps the e shaft… How?... well i don't understand how, but it is possible I suppose. Lately I’ve been thinking about the thermal pellet in the e shaft, it directly deals with the oil. But I don’t know the symptoms of a failing thermal pellet.
it's frustrating when i have purchased well within spec irons hoping there was too much step wear in the old irons and the issue didn't even show a sign of improvement.
Of course on the build that did not smoke you probably replaced more than 1 rotating component which makes it hard to track just exactly what the culprit was if it was in the rotating assembly. Could you give me a list of the rotating assembly components you replaced on the successful attempt? i had thought about the rotors themselves somehow being the culprit or perhaps the e shaft… How?... well i don't understand how, but it is possible I suppose. Lately I’ve been thinking about the thermal pellet in the e shaft, it directly deals with the oil. But I don’t know the symptoms of a failing thermal pellet.
it's frustrating when i have purchased well within spec irons hoping there was too much step wear in the old irons and the issue didn't even show a sign of improvement.
10-14-09, 04:56 AM
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Like I said its a long story...
2 engines.
Smokey one came about after a rebuild due to a cracked dowel land on the front end plate. The set of irons I used has slightly out of spec stepped wear so I had the surface ground. This engine got brand new oil control casings & o-rings, but same old springs along with all the rest of the internals remaining the same. Result = smokey & pooling oil in rear rotor housing.
On teardown I noticed the oil control casings were fairly worn after just a couple of km testing & figured the end plates were too rough from the grinding so I smoothed them out with emery paper wet... Replaced the new oil control casings with still in spec older ones & tried again. Result = smokey & pooling oil in rear rotor housing.
At this point I left it assembled & built a totally separate second engine from parts & it was fine until I recently detonated it. (it had 2mm 3pc apex seals)
Now I came back to the engine on the stand for parts (it had 3mm seals) using the known good end plates from the recently detonated engine along with the rotors & eshaft from the smokey engine the build Result = smokey & pooling oil in rear rotor housing.
It had been suggested on ausrotary that the rotor gear could have walked out resulting in no rotor clearance & I was hoping that was the case but it measured up perfectly...At this stage In hindsight I should have looked at changing oil control springs but they appeared to give good amount of tension, so I just swapped out oil control casings & orings again for other random spare but in spec ones. Result = smokey & pooling oil in rear rotor housing.
Finally & where Im at now, swapped out rotating assy for the 2mm rotors & e-shaft, also swapped back to the surface ground end plates & the once new oil control casings & orings. Result = non smoker.
So that leaves just the oil control springs (which im dissapointed in myself for not swapping out at any stage) & rotors & e-shaft as the only common parts in the smokey builds.
If it turns out the oil control springs are not the cause, I fugure about all it could be is a crack or hole in the rear rotor....
2 engines.
Smokey one came about after a rebuild due to a cracked dowel land on the front end plate. The set of irons I used has slightly out of spec stepped wear so I had the surface ground. This engine got brand new oil control casings & o-rings, but same old springs along with all the rest of the internals remaining the same. Result = smokey & pooling oil in rear rotor housing.
On teardown I noticed the oil control casings were fairly worn after just a couple of km testing & figured the end plates were too rough from the grinding so I smoothed them out with emery paper wet... Replaced the new oil control casings with still in spec older ones & tried again. Result = smokey & pooling oil in rear rotor housing.
At this point I left it assembled & built a totally separate second engine from parts & it was fine until I recently detonated it. (it had 2mm 3pc apex seals)
Now I came back to the engine on the stand for parts (it had 3mm seals) using the known good end plates from the recently detonated engine along with the rotors & eshaft from the smokey engine the build Result = smokey & pooling oil in rear rotor housing.
It had been suggested on ausrotary that the rotor gear could have walked out resulting in no rotor clearance & I was hoping that was the case but it measured up perfectly...At this stage In hindsight I should have looked at changing oil control springs but they appeared to give good amount of tension, so I just swapped out oil control casings & orings again for other random spare but in spec ones. Result = smokey & pooling oil in rear rotor housing.
Finally & where Im at now, swapped out rotating assy for the 2mm rotors & e-shaft, also swapped back to the surface ground end plates & the once new oil control casings & orings. Result = non smoker.
So that leaves just the oil control springs (which im dissapointed in myself for not swapping out at any stage) & rotors & e-shaft as the only common parts in the smokey builds.
If it turns out the oil control springs are not the cause, I fugure about all it could be is a crack or hole in the rear rotor....
10-14-09, 08:57 AM
#21
your 2 cents is greatly appropriated! thank you for the full story. I'm definitely going to be replacing the oil ring springs on this next built. I will let you know the outcome. Actually as much of a hassle as it is i plan to replace only 1 part at a time until i identify which is faulty. if the oil rings don't solve the problem I will replace the rotors. since i am currently running s4 N/A rotors on boost and have a good set of s4 turbo rotors at hand that wont be too difficult to do.
I'm now leading to the springs being the problem because unlike you i have oil in both chambers and the likelihood of there being a crack or hold in both rotors i would think is very slim whereas both rotors do share springs...
I'm now leading to the springs being the problem because unlike you i have oil in both chambers and the likelihood of there being a crack or hold in both rotors i would think is very slim whereas both rotors do share springs...
10-15-09, 05:01 PM
#22
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I kind of randomly found some info today where I wouldnt normally look... While cleaning up a scrren full of icons on my pc desktop, I pulled up the pdf FSM for the engine. 6 pages in it has a troubleshooting guide... >
Excessive oil consumption- Leakage into combustion chamber:
Deformation or abnormal wear of side housing
Malfunction of rotor (blowholes)
Scratched or burred rotor land
Malfunction of oil seal (incorrect angle)
Interesting, It never occured to me to look there so I thought I'd share
Excessive oil consumption- Leakage into combustion chamber:
Deformation or abnormal wear of side housing
Malfunction of rotor (blowholes)
Scratched or burred rotor land
Malfunction of oil seal (incorrect angle)
Interesting, It never occured to me to look there so I thought I'd share
10-15-09, 06:28 PM
#23
I have a big smoky problem myself. my car really didnt smoke before the kinda rebuild but now i it smokes like a ****. i used same apex, oil control, springs and seals. everything elses was replaced. I think mine is due to the irons. you can catch a couple finger nails lol. i can care less ocmpression is amazing runs good after its warm. just sucks when you get out of class and fills the whole entire acers and acres parking lot up with nasty smelling 2 stroke. I dont think some people realize how bad it is. im going to have to post a video soon
10-15-09, 07:43 PM
#24
I didn't see it stated here but what you measure on the cast iron oil control rings for wear to be within spec is the shiny flat wear surface that develops at the point of contact with the side housings.
If this band of wear around the control ring is too wide the ring is out of spec. Don't know the width off hand
If this band of wear around the control ring is too wide the ring is out of spec. Don't know the width off hand
10-15-09, 11:39 PM
#25
I didn't see it stated here but what you measure on the cast iron oil control rings for wear to be within spec is the shiny flat wear surface that develops at the point of contact with the side housings.
If this band of wear around the control ring is too wide the ring is out of spec. Don't know the width off hand
If this band of wear around the control ring is too wide the ring is out of spec. Don't know the width off hand