no-start 88 gxl urgent help needed :(
05-08-08, 07:52 PM
#27
Well, Icemark definitely took me to task for my de-flood procedure. I did read the FAQ before posting. For me... the primary problem was a leaking/stuck injector. The secondary problem was low compression from an old motor. I am sure these are very common problems and that most people want the vehicle to run right away. It is not always practical to take the intake manifolds off & remove the injectors to have them professionally cleaned. It's also not always necessary.
Running some injector cleaner with the fuel every 5 tanks or so can help clear the problem, as well as using a fuel with a cleaning additive such as Techron. This was the case with me. I could tell which injector was the culprit because I have a True dual exhaust and could easily tell which rotor was chronically flooding. My idle was erattic as well. These symptoms have since disappeared and the vehicle runs, starts & idles very well now.
The practice of turning off the fuel pump & relieving the pressure in the fuel system before turning off the ignition is a PRACTICAL WAY to avoid the problem of leaking/sticking injectors - IT DOES NOT FIX the CAUSE of the problem, but prevents flooding from happenning in the first place and therefore avoiding getting out of the car, raising the hood, pulling fuses ect. I would say that it causes less wear than removing the EGI fuse procedure.
I would disagree - When you floor the gas pedal on an s4 the OMP is wide open so there is lubricant available. When you eliminate the PRESSURE in the fuel system it runs the engine until the fuel is no longer being added in enough quantity to run the engine - the engine can't run without fuel so how can this remove the lubricant from the rotor & housing? It's not spinning anymore. The fuel system is not drained by this... ONLY THE PRESSURE - so that when being restarted the fuel system is pressurized by the pump - not filled-up from scratch. Excessive cranking is not needed at all and I can see no reasonable argument of there being no lubricant present. When I turn off the fuel pump the car runs maybe 3-4 seconds at the most. It takes the same maybe less to start it.
Removing the EGI fuse & cranking the engine when flooded DOES remove the lubricant from the rotor seals and worsens compression. Thats why it is recommended to remove the plugs & add oil through the plug holes. It will not stop a sticking or leaking injector from continuing to leak fuel because the fuel system is pressurized. However, cranking the engine with no fuel pressure will de-flood the engine and allow it to fire when the A/F ratio becomes correct. Holding down the gas pedal allows maximum amount of air AND oil from the OMP to lubricate the engine and the car to start. If you have an S5 and hold the pedal all the way down the injectors no longer pulse fuel and the OMP pumps oil for lubricant, however if your injectors are leaking or stuck it will still leak fuel & still be flooded.
It's alot easier for Joe-Blow to install a 5$ switch and never have his vehicle flood ever again than it is to rebuild the engine or remove the injectors for professional cleaning or remove spark plugs and try to pour oil into the plug holes. Flipping a simple switch is by far easier, faster and more practical than opening the hood, removing a fuse, get back in car, crank for a while, replace fuse, crank again - maybe start - maybe not - close hood drive car, change contaminated oil. Are you gonna do this on a friday night out with your date? Are you gonna do this in the store parking lot or at the bank?
The simple fact is that these cars have issues that come & go. Always have, always will. A practical solution to flooding is to de-pressurize the fuel system so that it cannot leak and cause flooding. To ignore this solution does a dis-service to forum members. I agree that it is BETTER to fix the root problems that cause flooding. However, not presenting a quick fix - Installing a Fuel Pump Relay Disconnect Switch - causes unnecessary grief & frustration to many forum members. It is not my intent to point fingers or insist that my opinion is the only way to do something. I mean no disrespect to Icemark or any other member presenting an opinion or point of view. I relating my personal experience and solution I found on this forum that met MY needs.
I just wanted to state my position since Icemark seemed to really have a bone to pick with my solution and wish good luck to the OP. Sorry to waste everyone time.
Ramses666
Running some injector cleaner with the fuel every 5 tanks or so can help clear the problem, as well as using a fuel with a cleaning additive such as Techron. This was the case with me. I could tell which injector was the culprit because I have a True dual exhaust and could easily tell which rotor was chronically flooding. My idle was erattic as well. These symptoms have since disappeared and the vehicle runs, starts & idles very well now.
The practice of turning off the fuel pump & relieving the pressure in the fuel system before turning off the ignition is a PRACTICAL WAY to avoid the problem of leaking/sticking injectors - IT DOES NOT FIX the CAUSE of the problem, but prevents flooding from happenning in the first place and therefore avoiding getting out of the car, raising the hood, pulling fuses ect. I would say that it causes less wear than removing the EGI fuse procedure.
First, at start up and idle, the only lubricant that the apex seals is getting, is provided by the fuel. Yep the gasoline acts like a lubricant (and one of the reasons that the FB and FC run so rich when starting and at idle). So by killing the fuel to shut down the engine, you are effectively removing any lubricant to the apex seals.
But wait, it gets worse... then when you re-start the car, the fuel has to travel all the way from the back of the car (instead of already being pressurized in the line running all the way to the injectors) up... so now you are starting the car with a longer crank period (because the fuel is not there) and again you are cranking with no lubricant on the apex seals.
But wait, it gets worse... then when you re-start the car, the fuel has to travel all the way from the back of the car (instead of already being pressurized in the line running all the way to the injectors) up... so now you are starting the car with a longer crank period (because the fuel is not there) and again you are cranking with no lubricant on the apex seals.
Removing the EGI fuse & cranking the engine when flooded DOES remove the lubricant from the rotor seals and worsens compression. Thats why it is recommended to remove the plugs & add oil through the plug holes. It will not stop a sticking or leaking injector from continuing to leak fuel because the fuel system is pressurized. However, cranking the engine with no fuel pressure will de-flood the engine and allow it to fire when the A/F ratio becomes correct. Holding down the gas pedal allows maximum amount of air AND oil from the OMP to lubricate the engine and the car to start. If you have an S5 and hold the pedal all the way down the injectors no longer pulse fuel and the OMP pumps oil for lubricant, however if your injectors are leaking or stuck it will still leak fuel & still be flooded.
It's alot easier for Joe-Blow to install a 5$ switch and never have his vehicle flood ever again than it is to rebuild the engine or remove the injectors for professional cleaning or remove spark plugs and try to pour oil into the plug holes. Flipping a simple switch is by far easier, faster and more practical than opening the hood, removing a fuse, get back in car, crank for a while, replace fuse, crank again - maybe start - maybe not - close hood drive car, change contaminated oil. Are you gonna do this on a friday night out with your date? Are you gonna do this in the store parking lot or at the bank?
The simple fact is that these cars have issues that come & go. Always have, always will. A practical solution to flooding is to de-pressurize the fuel system so that it cannot leak and cause flooding. To ignore this solution does a dis-service to forum members. I agree that it is BETTER to fix the root problems that cause flooding. However, not presenting a quick fix - Installing a Fuel Pump Relay Disconnect Switch - causes unnecessary grief & frustration to many forum members. It is not my intent to point fingers or insist that my opinion is the only way to do something. I mean no disrespect to Icemark or any other member presenting an opinion or point of view. I relating my personal experience and solution I found on this forum that met MY needs.
I just wanted to state my position since Icemark seemed to really have a bone to pick with my solution and wish good luck to the OP. Sorry to waste everyone time.
Ramses666
05-08-08, 09:23 PM
#28
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The problem with what you said is you are talking about a way to make a dammaged motor somewhat driveable for a lengthened period of time. If your motor has weak compression, than if you want to start the engine while hot you will have to do some kind of deflooding procedure almost every time... ask me how I know?
This situation, we are assuming a non dammaged engine. So therefore we don't want or need to start adding randon switches and unplugging relays for something that isn't going to happen on a regular basis.
If someone with one hell of a lot more posts on here tells you your wrong, chances are they are right and you should avoid arguing with them.
This situation, we are assuming a non dammaged engine. So therefore we don't want or need to start adding randon switches and unplugging relays for something that isn't going to happen on a regular basis.
If someone with one hell of a lot more posts on here tells you your wrong, chances are they are right and you should avoid arguing with them.
05-08-08, 10:47 PM
#29
I hear ya.... not my intention to dispute the moderator. Just telling people what works for me & why. I think I made myself clear about fixing the problem & dealing with practical immediate solutions. Sounds like you have a similar experience.
Alot of people just can't rebuild their engine or take it apart for a small problem that may not require a significant investment of time & $$$$. Why not offer an easy, quick, temporary fix while identifying the underlying cause and solution?
Also, the point about having to mess with the damned thing while out & about is very relevant to me.... it's awkward & embarrassing to have to open the hood & do stuff just to get the @#$$% thing to start when I stop for a 6-pack or anything else. I just avoid the whole damned problem forever!!!!! or until the motor absolutley won't run anymore. Been there done that. Found a used one for a few hundred & put it in. Don't you get it? Some of us don't have $2000 to spend on a rebuild for a car that's worth $1000 on a good day. I wish I did. I need the car to work. A $5 dollar solution seems Absolutely viable as an alternative to what was suggested in the FAQ.
I got really, really tired of messing with the @#$%@#$! flooding issue. I am sure there are many, many, many forum members who have dealt with it before. Everyday there is another poor schmuck sitting with his head in his hand pulling his hair out 'cause he's stuck somewhere again!!!! This has been the one MADDENNING ISSUE I have ever really had with my 7 and a little B.S. Switch that took 5 minutes to put in fixed it for me. Do you think that is worth sharing or just let someone with a gazzillion posts say otherwise... OH NO!!! It might not have Lube on it?!? GIVE ME A @!$#! BREAK!!! ITS FLOODED!!! TURN OFF THE FUEL!!! HELLO?!?
Ramses666
Alot of people just can't rebuild their engine or take it apart for a small problem that may not require a significant investment of time & $$$$. Why not offer an easy, quick, temporary fix while identifying the underlying cause and solution?
Also, the point about having to mess with the damned thing while out & about is very relevant to me.... it's awkward & embarrassing to have to open the hood & do stuff just to get the @#$$% thing to start when I stop for a 6-pack or anything else. I just avoid the whole damned problem forever!!!!! or until the motor absolutley won't run anymore. Been there done that. Found a used one for a few hundred & put it in. Don't you get it? Some of us don't have $2000 to spend on a rebuild for a car that's worth $1000 on a good day. I wish I did. I need the car to work. A $5 dollar solution seems Absolutely viable as an alternative to what was suggested in the FAQ.
I got really, really tired of messing with the @#$%@#$! flooding issue. I am sure there are many, many, many forum members who have dealt with it before. Everyday there is another poor schmuck sitting with his head in his hand pulling his hair out 'cause he's stuck somewhere again!!!! This has been the one MADDENNING ISSUE I have ever really had with my 7 and a little B.S. Switch that took 5 minutes to put in fixed it for me. Do you think that is worth sharing or just let someone with a gazzillion posts say otherwise... OH NO!!! It might not have Lube on it?!? GIVE ME A @!$#! BREAK!!! ITS FLOODED!!! TURN OFF THE FUEL!!! HELLO?!?
Ramses666
05-09-08, 12:09 AM
#30
Former Moderator. RIP Icemark.
Originally Posted by Ramses666
The simple fact is that these cars have issues that come & go. Always have, always will. A practical solution to flooding is to de-pressurize the fuel system so that it cannot leak and cause flooding. To ignore this solution does a dis-service to forum members. I agree that it is BETTER to fix the root problems that cause flooding. However, not presenting a quick fix - Installing a Fuel Pump Relay Disconnect Switch - causes unnecessary grief & frustration to many forum members. It is not my intent to point fingers or insist that my opinion is the only way to do something. I mean no disrespect to Icemark or any other member presenting an opinion or point of view. I relating my personal experience and solution I found on this forum that met MY needs.
I just wanted to state my position since Icemark seemed to really have a bone to pick with my solution and wish good luck to the OP. Sorry to waste everyone time.
Ramses666
I just wanted to state my position since Icemark seemed to really have a bone to pick with my solution and wish good luck to the OP. Sorry to waste everyone time.
Ramses666
I don't get why people will not follow the manual and try cranking with the throttle wide open. I think it is because of the same idiots that said that people should put ATF into a motor to clean out stuck seals. Some one tried it once told their buddy or posted it that it works and now everyone thinks it is okay.
Clear the flood as Mazda has said to clear it for the last 40 years, not by pulling fuses, or disconnecting circuits- but by holding the throttle open and cranking. That is what I am saying.
A flooding/stuck injector at most is $100 in parts and an afternoon to fix with ordinary hand tools. So for the cost of two tanks of gas, you can get better mileage and the car runs the way it was supposed too. Not fixing a car and wiring in a switch is a bogus cop out for a stuck injector.
05-09-08, 12:31 AM
#31
It's not bogus when I don't have an afternoon or $100 or am out at night. A stuck or leaking injector does not necessarily need to be replaced. You can hold your foot to the floor till the cows come home & it won't start.... sorry that's my experience. Seems like that would cause more wear and heart ache.
Can we meet somewhere in the middle on this? I'm trying hard. This works for me. I'm happy with it. My leaking injector has sorted itself out after a few tanks with Techron. Age has a way of causing injectors to malfunction. I had mine cleaned a few years ago... I am more than willing to admit that a fuel pump switch is a band-aid. The problem should be fixed properly, but sometimes we don't have that option. It's not a perfect world and Murphy's Law works overtime with these cars. Sometimes a band-aid is needed before you get to the hospital. First-aid is just that - first-aid. Having an operable vehicle can be much more important than one that functions perfectly as I'm sure most of us can relate to. It sounds like we agree about more than we disagree. your a smart guy... c'mon... Flooded engine cut fuel.... pretty basic. Why just crank & pray?
Ramses666
Can we meet somewhere in the middle on this? I'm trying hard. This works for me. I'm happy with it. My leaking injector has sorted itself out after a few tanks with Techron. Age has a way of causing injectors to malfunction. I had mine cleaned a few years ago... I am more than willing to admit that a fuel pump switch is a band-aid. The problem should be fixed properly, but sometimes we don't have that option. It's not a perfect world and Murphy's Law works overtime with these cars. Sometimes a band-aid is needed before you get to the hospital. First-aid is just that - first-aid. Having an operable vehicle can be much more important than one that functions perfectly as I'm sure most of us can relate to. It sounds like we agree about more than we disagree. your a smart guy... c'mon... Flooded engine cut fuel.... pretty basic. Why just crank & pray?
Ramses666
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