Need help diagnosing starting issues (already searched)
03-31-07, 09:58 AM
#1
Need help diagnosing starting issues (already searched)
I finally got my car running last weekend. I drove it around a few times on Sunday, then came back and parked it as normal. When I went out Monday after work to drive it, it wouldn't start. It cranked for a split second, then nothing. The lights dimmed/radio turned off like normal, I could definately hear the fuel pump kick on, I could hear the starter solenoid click, but the starter didn't budge.
My troubleshooting told me that the starter was bad. So I took the starter off and got it tested, but it works just fine. The guy that tested it said it was turning a little slow, but that shouldn't cause it to not start at all. Next I went and tried to turn the engine over by hand to see if it was locked, but it wasn't because I could turn it over by hand just fine. Next I checked all of the underhood fuses which are fine.
So now what? I guess I need to get under and test the connections with a multimeter while someone cranks it. I assume something should be seeing 12 volts, but between which two places?
Also, if it matters, there was a large rain storm Sunday night and there was a bit of water on the harness under the car.
Thanks in advance for the help.
My troubleshooting told me that the starter was bad. So I took the starter off and got it tested, but it works just fine. The guy that tested it said it was turning a little slow, but that shouldn't cause it to not start at all. Next I went and tried to turn the engine over by hand to see if it was locked, but it wasn't because I could turn it over by hand just fine. Next I checked all of the underhood fuses which are fine.
So now what? I guess I need to get under and test the connections with a multimeter while someone cranks it. I assume something should be seeing 12 volts, but between which two places?
Also, if it matters, there was a large rain storm Sunday night and there was a bit of water on the harness under the car.
Thanks in advance for the help.
03-31-07, 10:14 AM
#2
Clean battery terminals and clean electrical connections on the starter. Use a wire brush and contact cleaner. Then I put conductive grease on all electrical connections.
and replace the starter anyway--if the guy said it was turning slowly, presumably when he tested it under better conditions (i.e. not a 20 year old electrical system), it's on its way out. My Turbo II used to do that--I'd have to try and crank it two times, but when I replaced the starter and cleaned the connections the problem disappeared. I even had a similar problem with my GTU and I did the same thing and it turns over every time.
I've heard of FD guys running a relay to the starter to make sure it gets full battery voltage as well
and replace the starter anyway--if the guy said it was turning slowly, presumably when he tested it under better conditions (i.e. not a 20 year old electrical system), it's on its way out. My Turbo II used to do that--I'd have to try and crank it two times, but when I replaced the starter and cleaned the connections the problem disappeared. I even had a similar problem with my GTU and I did the same thing and it turns over every time.
I've heard of FD guys running a relay to the starter to make sure it gets full battery voltage as well
03-31-07, 02:25 PM
#4
Ok, I cleaned all of the contacts, and its still no go. I took my meter and measured the voltage between the starter housing (ground) and the post the power is connected to. It read 12.4 V. WTF? Its getting power to it, the solenoid is clicking, the starter motor is good. Why the hell isn't it working?
Last edited by Sideways7; 03-31-07 at 02:37 PM.
03-31-07, 04:09 PM
#5
HAILERS
Join Date: May 2001
Location: FORT WORTH, TEXAS,USA
Posts: 20,563
Likes: 0
Received 21 Likes
on
19 Posts
Do this. Turn the headlights on and go to START. Now if you hear the starter solenoid click and the headlights still stay pretty bright, then it ain't the battery terminals.
So do this before fixing the car. PUll the TRAIL COIL ASSY up and lay out of the way. You don NOT have to disconnect any wires to it.
Step two: Find the jumper connector that is colored BRIGHT BLUE. Pull that connector off it's other half and lay the Blue half on top of the car out of the way.
Get a piece of wire that will reach from the battery POSITIVE terminal to the half of the plug the BLUE connector was attached to.
Step three: Put the transmission in neutral.
Step four: with one end of your wire connected to the battery Positive terminal, touch the other end to the BLACK/WHITE wire in that half of the plug the BLUE connector was attached to. The LARGE black/white wire, not the small black/white wire or any other wire.
Step five: the starter should now be whipping over.
Step six: remove the wire from the black/white wire.
Step seven: repeat the touching of the black/white wire seven times to see if the starter turns over each time.
Step eight: Write back telling me it worked or that there is no BLUE connector there under the Trai coils because you have THEFT PROTECTION.
So do this before fixing the car. PUll the TRAIL COIL ASSY up and lay out of the way. You don NOT have to disconnect any wires to it.
Step two: Find the jumper connector that is colored BRIGHT BLUE. Pull that connector off it's other half and lay the Blue half on top of the car out of the way.
Get a piece of wire that will reach from the battery POSITIVE terminal to the half of the plug the BLUE connector was attached to.
Step three: Put the transmission in neutral.
Step four: with one end of your wire connected to the battery Positive terminal, touch the other end to the BLACK/WHITE wire in that half of the plug the BLUE connector was attached to. The LARGE black/white wire, not the small black/white wire or any other wire.
Step five: the starter should now be whipping over.
Step six: remove the wire from the black/white wire.
Step seven: repeat the touching of the black/white wire seven times to see if the starter turns over each time.
Step eight: Write back telling me it worked or that there is no BLUE connector there under the Trai coils because you have THEFT PROTECTION.
03-31-07, 04:17 PM
#6
First of all, the headlights barely dim when the starter is engaged.
Ok, before you had made your post, I decided to pull the starter out yet again. With it out of the tranny, I hooked it up directly to the battery with jumper cables (neg to the body where it bolts in, pos to the terminal that needs 12V) and I connected up the small wire that activates the solenoid. When I started it, the starter fired right up.
This makes me think that maybe the starter really is just too weak to turn the motor. Is that possible?
And again, the motor is NOT frozen, its turns preatty easily by hand.
Should I still do that test you posted, Hailers, or does it not matter now?
Also, are the auto and manual starters different? I'm pretty sure they are, but I have to ask since I have a spare auto starter sitting in my garage.
Ok, before you had made your post, I decided to pull the starter out yet again. With it out of the tranny, I hooked it up directly to the battery with jumper cables (neg to the body where it bolts in, pos to the terminal that needs 12V) and I connected up the small wire that activates the solenoid. When I started it, the starter fired right up.
This makes me think that maybe the starter really is just too weak to turn the motor. Is that possible?
And again, the motor is NOT frozen, its turns preatty easily by hand.
Should I still do that test you posted, Hailers, or does it not matter now?
Also, are the auto and manual starters different? I'm pretty sure they are, but I have to ask since I have a spare auto starter sitting in my garage.
Last edited by Sideways7; 03-31-07 at 04:28 PM.
03-31-07, 04:34 PM
#7
HAILERS
Join Date: May 2001
Location: FORT WORTH, TEXAS,USA
Posts: 20,563
Likes: 0
Received 21 Likes
on
19 Posts
No. There's NOTHING wrong with the starter at all.
Put it back in the car/engine.
Put the car in neutral. After all, it's your life at stake.
Get under the car with it on stands or??? whatever.
With EVERYTHING CONNECTED UP, get a common screwdriver and touch it to the LARGE wire on the starter and the small blade on the solenoid. The small wire can be disconnected from the small blade. It won't be a player.
ANyway, if you touch the screwdrivers shank to the small blade and the large connector with the wire on it, the starter will spin cazy fast, proving once again, it's not the starter/starter solenoid, but merely a CORRUPT ignition switch.
This can be overcome, if true. Try it out first.
Put it back in the car/engine.
Put the car in neutral. After all, it's your life at stake.
Get under the car with it on stands or??? whatever.
With EVERYTHING CONNECTED UP, get a common screwdriver and touch it to the LARGE wire on the starter and the small blade on the solenoid. The small wire can be disconnected from the small blade. It won't be a player.
ANyway, if you touch the screwdrivers shank to the small blade and the large connector with the wire on it, the starter will spin cazy fast, proving once again, it's not the starter/starter solenoid, but merely a CORRUPT ignition switch.
This can be overcome, if true. Try it out first.
Trending Topics
03-31-07, 05:02 PM
#8
I did the test you told me about once I put the starter back in. It does the exact same thing as when I start it normally. The solenoid clicks real loud, but nothing happens. I will go try what you just posted, but my guess is that it will do the same thing as all the other times.
03-31-07, 05:06 PM
#9
Junior Member
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: everett,wa
Posts: 5
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'm having the same problem. I have gone through 3 (2used 1new) starters, 3 ignition switches, added a grounding kit, changed batteries, checked the flywheel teeth, and it still won't start.
03-31-07, 05:07 PM
#10
Ok, that worked, sorry for doubting.
I wouldn't call it crazy fast, but after the initial sparks, it definately turned. It doesn't make sense to me that the solenoid would engage but wouldn't start the motor from a corrupt ignition switch. But I guess I don't know nearly as much about the electrical system as you.
So what do I need to do now?
I wouldn't call it crazy fast, but after the initial sparks, it definately turned. It doesn't make sense to me that the solenoid would engage but wouldn't start the motor from a corrupt ignition switch. But I guess I don't know nearly as much about the electrical system as you.
So what do I need to do now?
03-31-07, 05:55 PM
#11
I went back out to try it again and it sparked some mroe and now the starter wont turn by jumpering those two connectors. When I reconnect the small wire it still clicks but not as loud. Did something happen to the starter from jumpering it?
03-31-07, 07:18 PM
#12
HAILERS
Join Date: May 2001
Location: FORT WORTH, TEXAS,USA
Posts: 20,563
Likes: 0
Received 21 Likes
on
19 Posts
Wellllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll.............. .......mabe the starter is bad.
In the past I've had the click, click, click, click....start problem That means it would click each time I went to Start and finally after several times it would actually start.
The starter was good, the interlock switch was good. What was bad and is til this day, was/is the ignition switch. It could not carry the current to actallly pull the starter solenoid in. A new starter or starter solenoid would do the same after a day or so.
To prove it was the ignition switch I jumpered batt voltage to the balck/white wire at the BLUE connectors mate. It started the car each and every time proving the starter/starter solenoid were good.
So I put a common relay in the picture. I used the green/black wire at the Blue connector as the power to pull the new relay in. I used a new wire runnng to the chassis for the relays gnd.
The ran a fused wire from the engine fuse box to the new relay. Then ran the black/white wire at the Blue connectors mate to the new relay.
Go to START and the new relay pulls in. The contacts in the new relay pull in and bridge the black/white wire to the new fused wire from the engine fuse box.
Now the car starts each and every time and no more click, click, click, clicjk start bull ****.
YOUR starter sounds cooked. I've had one of those in the past. One of the Brushes in the starter was crumblecake. Only smacking the starter on the side with a hammer could make it work. Carried a hammer around til I got a new starter.
In the past I've had the click, click, click, click....start problem That means it would click each time I went to Start and finally after several times it would actually start.
The starter was good, the interlock switch was good. What was bad and is til this day, was/is the ignition switch. It could not carry the current to actallly pull the starter solenoid in. A new starter or starter solenoid would do the same after a day or so.
To prove it was the ignition switch I jumpered batt voltage to the balck/white wire at the BLUE connectors mate. It started the car each and every time proving the starter/starter solenoid were good.
So I put a common relay in the picture. I used the green/black wire at the Blue connector as the power to pull the new relay in. I used a new wire runnng to the chassis for the relays gnd.
The ran a fused wire from the engine fuse box to the new relay. Then ran the black/white wire at the Blue connectors mate to the new relay.
Go to START and the new relay pulls in. The contacts in the new relay pull in and bridge the black/white wire to the new fused wire from the engine fuse box.
Now the car starts each and every time and no more click, click, click, clicjk start bull ****.
YOUR starter sounds cooked. I've had one of those in the past. One of the Brushes in the starter was crumblecake. Only smacking the starter on the side with a hammer could make it work. Carried a hammer around til I got a new starter.
03-31-07, 07:48 PM
#13
Ok, thats kinda what I was afraid of. The ignition switch is going out also, though, because it has always had the problem where I have to try a few times for it to engage. My daily driver is doing the same thing as well. Its weird that it fired up that one time by jumpering the post and spade connector, though. And that it went when out of the tranny. Who knows.
That said, how exactly did you hit the starter with the hammer while starting the car? I can't even get to mine without a jack, let alone hit it while reaching the key.
Also, could you confirm that the auto starter won't work in a manual NA tranny?
Thank you very much for all of the help.
That said, how exactly did you hit the starter with the hammer while starting the car? I can't even get to mine without a jack, let alone hit it while reaching the key.
Also, could you confirm that the auto starter won't work in a manual NA tranny?
Thank you very much for all of the help.
03-31-07, 08:49 PM
#14
HAILERS
Join Date: May 2001
Location: FORT WORTH, TEXAS,USA
Posts: 20,563
Likes: 0
Received 21 Likes
on
19 Posts
I'm not responsible for any damage.
I smacked it prior to starting the engine. Smacked it on its side, THEN got in and started the engine. The smacking sort of made the bad brush make better contact??? Got me. Worked for me.
If you jumpered the small blade to the large, bolted down wire next to it and it only sparked, well it's probably a bad starter. By jumper, I mean made contact with the screwdriver shaft with both items at the same time.
I don't know anything about auto starters.
About your daily driver: do what i suggested. LIft the Trail coils assy up and set to the side. Pull the BLUE jumper plug off. The with a spare piece of wire, one end connected to the battery positive post, touch the other end of that wire to the socket where the black/white wire is.
The black/white wire is in the connector the BLUE jumper WAS connected to. That black/white wire leads directly to the small spade connector on the starter solenoid. Do that numerous times to verify that the starter works each and every time. If that happens, it confirms there is nothing wrong with the starter itself.
I smacked it prior to starting the engine. Smacked it on its side, THEN got in and started the engine. The smacking sort of made the bad brush make better contact??? Got me. Worked for me.
If you jumpered the small blade to the large, bolted down wire next to it and it only sparked, well it's probably a bad starter. By jumper, I mean made contact with the screwdriver shaft with both items at the same time.
I don't know anything about auto starters.
About your daily driver: do what i suggested. LIft the Trail coils assy up and set to the side. Pull the BLUE jumper plug off. The with a spare piece of wire, one end connected to the battery positive post, touch the other end of that wire to the socket where the black/white wire is.
The black/white wire is in the connector the BLUE jumper WAS connected to. That black/white wire leads directly to the small spade connector on the starter solenoid. Do that numerous times to verify that the starter works each and every time. If that happens, it confirms there is nothing wrong with the starter itself.
03-31-07, 10:07 PM
#15
Oh, my daily driver is an MX3, so its different. It works fine, but occasionally I have to turn the key 2 or 3 times before it goes. I'm not gonna worry about it right now. Its just on my list of things to do once I get my 7 up and running reliably.
As for the starter, when I did the thing you first told me and said again in the last post (connect the wire directly from the battery to the black/white wire) it did exactly what happens when I try to start it normally - the solenoid clicks and thats it. The first time I jumpered the pos post of the starter and the spade for the small wire it it sparked and worked. When I went back and tried it, it just sparked. After that, it wasn't even sparking. Other than that its still working the same. My guess is that when I took the starter off the last time (I've removed it 4 times today) I dropped it and it just worked that one time. Just for the hell of it, I'm gonna try the hammer trick tomorrow and see if it does anything.
Just so I know, what is involved in cleaning the ignition switch? I'm gonna go ahead and do that anyway sometime soon since I know it needs it, and it could be part of the problem.
As for the starter, when I did the thing you first told me and said again in the last post (connect the wire directly from the battery to the black/white wire) it did exactly what happens when I try to start it normally - the solenoid clicks and thats it. The first time I jumpered the pos post of the starter and the spade for the small wire it it sparked and worked. When I went back and tried it, it just sparked. After that, it wasn't even sparking. Other than that its still working the same. My guess is that when I took the starter off the last time (I've removed it 4 times today) I dropped it and it just worked that one time. Just for the hell of it, I'm gonna try the hammer trick tomorrow and see if it does anything.
Just so I know, what is involved in cleaning the ignition switch? I'm gonna go ahead and do that anyway sometime soon since I know it needs it, and it could be part of the problem.
Last edited by Sideways7; 03-31-07 at 10:12 PM.
04-01-07, 07:07 AM
#16
HAILERS
Join Date: May 2001
Location: FORT WORTH, TEXAS,USA
Posts: 20,563
Likes: 0
Received 21 Likes
on
19 Posts
********As for the starter, when I did the thing you first told me and said again in the last post (connect the wire directly from the battery to the black/white wire) it did exactly what happens when I try to start it normally - the solenoid clicks and thats it.*********************************************** ***************************8
Conclusive proof the starter or starter solenoid is bad.............IF the power wire on the starter is on good and the gnd wire on the long starter bolt is on good and the battery terminals are good (batt terminals proved good when you went to START and the headlights stayed bright).
Conclusive proof the starter or starter solenoid is bad.............IF the power wire on the starter is on good and the gnd wire on the long starter bolt is on good and the battery terminals are good (batt terminals proved good when you went to START and the headlights stayed bright).
04-01-07, 09:09 PM
#18
Ok, so I got a "new" starter from O'reilly's and installed it. It is doing the exact same thing as before. I tried the wire from the batt to the b/w wire and it still did the same thing.
So I the only thing this leaves is that I'm just not getting sufficient power to the starter. I looked at my batt cables and the + cable looked really corroded. Pulled it apart and sprayed battery cleaner on it and scrubbed it, then put it back to together and Voila! It starts. It is clearly turning better than my old one, so its not a lost cause that I bought a reman starter.
Now I have more issues. The tach isn't working, and I have what seems to be a horrible ground problem since it won't even go past 3800 when in gear (but will when fre-revving.) I think I can fix those on my own, but I'll start a new thread if I need help.
Thanks to all those that helped, escpecially Hailers.
So I the only thing this leaves is that I'm just not getting sufficient power to the starter. I looked at my batt cables and the + cable looked really corroded. Pulled it apart and sprayed battery cleaner on it and scrubbed it, then put it back to together and Voila! It starts. It is clearly turning better than my old one, so its not a lost cause that I bought a reman starter.
Now I have more issues. The tach isn't working, and I have what seems to be a horrible ground problem since it won't even go past 3800 when in gear (but will when fre-revving.) I think I can fix those on my own, but I'll start a new thread if I need help.
Thanks to all those that helped, escpecially Hailers.
04-01-07, 09:47 PM
#19
I was stupid and forgot to put the trailing coils back on. I took it out for a drive for the first time in close to 2 years. Wow! I remembered how fast it was, but I can't believe how fast it takes corners.
Anyway, now I have another issue to chase down that luckily occured as I was pulling in my driveway. I'm pretty sure I know the problem, though, so its no biggie.
Anyway, now I have another issue to chase down that luckily occured as I was pulling in my driveway. I'm pretty sure I know the problem, though, so its no biggie.
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post