staticguitar313

iTrader: (2)

Extremely nice work, i wasnt expecting that. All that red is starting to look nice together. You could make alot of money selling that plenum setup, if FC owners wherent so poor that is.




POR-15, protects the metal and creates a smooth surface, but you didnt read everything did you?

Aaron Cake

iTrader: (1)

I don't see why not. The IDA setups are aluminium with I am not really set up to weld, but fundamentally fabbing up a plenum isn't really hard when you don't have to make the runners and such. Basically cut two holes, weld to IDA inlets, cut throttle body flange, weld to plenum, drill and tap holes. Then make end caps. It's certainly less then a day's work.

I'm just above the "I suck" level of welding. I can stick, MIG, gas weld and do basic TIG but I would still not trust my welds for critical applications. And a grinder sure comes in handy...

I have access to a TIG so it could have been aluminium if I really wanted. Compared to steel though aluninium is so hard to weld that to me it's not really worth it unless I was trying to save every ounce...Consider that the intake may have weighed 4 LBS less in aluminium...What's 4 LBs in a street car? Hell, I wear more then 4 LBs of clothes but I don't take them off to drive (usually).

POR-15 is god.

OK, from now on anyone who complains about me not using aluminium MUST post pictures of their TIG setup along with images of them running perfect beads on a structural piece of ALU. And then I want to see a cross-sectional X-ray showing perfect penetration and lack of porosity.

Seriously, there's nothing wrong with steel. Rust is not an issue here due to POR-15 and the fact that in short order the inside of the intake will be coated with a file oil film (this gets bypassed from the turbo). It's lighter then stock, and there would only be a marginal difference in weight if it was made of ALU. Now I did consider making it of stainless (you can see that the weld els are stainless) but figured there was no point since it would be POR-15'ed and painted on the outside.

LOL. Thanks.

Yeah, I think it should do the job without too much trouble. It's actually WAY more intake then this car needs.

My only real concern is tuning. I'm a little worried that without the progressive throttle things could be funky on the low end. It might be difficult to tune and prevent low-throttle hesitations and such. We'll see...

RotaryEvolution

iTrader: (30)

couple suggestions to make life easier in the future, pick up an exhaust tubing cutter, it will save you tons of time while cutting tubes flush and straight, costs about $35-40.

the intake was measured for volume i take it? it still wouldn't have been a bad idea to leave the port runners adjustable to tune the power curve, then they could be sealed up when a sweet spot is found.

everything looks nice and not far away from completion.

Aaron Cake

iTrader: (1)

I was waiting for someone to mention that, and I've already received 2 PMs about it so I'll make it clear now.

If you are going to PM me about purchasing an intake, consider this first. One, you will need a standlone already. Even still I don't know how it will behave at partial throttle. This intake is unproven so I have no idea how well it will actually work (although similar designs have been used for years).

Finally, there is cost. If you are serious about purchasing one, the cost is $1000 US. This includes the entire intake assembly MINUS the throttle body. The throttle body flange will be left virgin so you can drill and tap according to the TB you plan to use. It will come unpainted on the outside with a coat of POR-15 on the inside. Quality will be above what is shown in this thread by quite a bit. 50% payment is required to begin construction, and the final 50% due upon completion at which point it will be shipped out (shipping included).

So stop PM'ing me!

You suck.

SonicRaT

iTrader: (6)

Sorry, I love my expensive IDA

I'm curious if there'd be a more effective way of merging the runners other than the 4" pipe, though it'd make things considerably more difficult to put together. That's what's nice about IDA though, two runners is a hell of a lot easier to deal with than 4.

Aaron Cake

iTrader: (1)

People are replying faster then I can....

Yeah...Next time I'll be using horizontal bandsaw or a diamond carbide (very fine blade) chop saw. It would have saved at LOT of work.

Yes. I forget the exact figure but I think the rule is that plenum volume is to be approx 70% of engine displacement. I believe I am a little over if you consider it a 1.3 litre, but just under if you consider it a 2.6 litre.

I thought of that but it would make tuning very difficult. I'm going to wait until the car is tuned with this setup and then I can experiment with runner lengths at my leisure. Also I want to build another one that has small throttle plates in the secondary runners to mimic the stock progressive setup.

Aaron Cake

iTrader: (1)

4 runners isn't too bad really. The next one will be very easy when I implement velocity stacks since it makes keeping things straight MUCH easier. Two runners could have been done I guess by merging them just after the flange using a collector and tilting the runners slightly. It would certainly look cool, but be major pain to fabricate. Four runners is also a great look since every dumbass is going to be asking "Is that a 4 cylinder?"

For others who are reading, SDS-EFI has a writeup on how to build an intake and they use a 2nd gen as an example. Unfortunatly I found this after I had constructed mine...

http://www.sdsefi.com/techinta.htm

staticguitar313

iTrader: (2)

Like i said poor FC owners, this just kinda bursts my whole bubble, i was planning on using as much stock N/A parts as a could for emissions reasons (and b/c i keep my AC and PS) but looking at that setup just makes me HATE living in arizona where passing emissions is a must. Id sport that setup in a heartbeat, but . . . If you built that why not also fab up a nicer LIM, i know you chopped yours up and smoothed out the kinks but still. Any chance of you running Alcohol or water injection this time around? , I'm definetly going to.

RotaryEvolution

iTrader: (30)

the stock LIM is slim and basically only a cast aluminum piece could blend smoothly enough into the lower ports and still clear the turbo, no point in overcomplicating things.

the thickness of the LIM should shield it from heat much better than a steel LIM could provide.

jacobcartmill

iTrader: (6)

also, aaron: i forgot to mention i like the design. its nice, simple and effective

SonicRaT

iTrader: (6)

I wonder how much of a difference it would make rather than to flow into a flat pipe and find a hole to escape. I noticed that a lot with IDA turbo plenums most companies produce similar intake designs using runners ran into a pipe (or chamber), with a center inlet on the other side. For mine I used a mandrel U-bend and cut it in half, then I just merged the two pipes together as a Y, and ground the inside out so it was smooth and even. Makes me curious as to if I should rethink my design and incorperate some form of chamber as well, as even the stock manifolds tend to have a large chamber.

Aaron Cake

iTrader: (1)

I have to pass emissions too. It's just going to take some creative tuning, a fresh new cat and likely some luck.

The lower intake is just a simple casting so there's no real point in messing with it. It also houses the metering oil nozzles and the primary injector air bleeds (now THOSE would be a bitch to recreate...and they're absolutely necessary). My lower has already been ported and smoothed anyway.

That's a good point. I'm going to make a heat shield that will cover most of it, as well as heat-wrap the turbo/downpipe.

jacobcartmill

iTrader: (6)

you're not still using the stock s4 turbo/manifold are you?

edit: sorry if i missed some of this info in one of your threads

SonicRaT

iTrader: (6)

For break-in, to be replaced with the 35R. (Kind of curious what exhaust manifold you're going to use for the 35?)

staticguitar313

iTrader: (2)

Point taken, i have alot of time to plan and prepare for my conversion, all i really have that i'm actually going to end up using is one excellent condition HT-18 turbo, i spent a good amount of money on parts i'm not even going to use anymore IE: TII intake manifolds, a second HT-18, TII TB, misc parts . . . bleh oh well, wish i had access to welding equipment like that, my list of tools berely gets me by.

Aaron Cake

iTrader: (1)

I always picture an engine "sucking" and not being "blown" when intaking air. If you think of it that way it's not too bad. However I certainly agree that around the intake of the runners there will be turbulence caused by the sudden transition. That's one major reason for the velocity stacks as they provide a bellmouth area for air to travel through. At the time I did not think of velocity stacks until I had already attached the runners, so that is saved for version 2.

I can picture your design in my head and it's one that I had considered as well. I am VERY FAR from an expert in dynamics and flow but I believe that most intake systems incorporate a plenum of some time to provide "surge" area for reversion and ample area for the intake flow to merge into the runners. I've seen more square plenums in aftermarket then round ones, so it seems that shape is secondary to volume and tuning (ie. making runner lengths match plenum volume so intake pulses cause supercharging effect). At this point we're well over my knowledge sine many books have been written on intake tuning and it takes engineers years to come up with a good design. But I cannot stress the importance of velocity stacks. If it's something that can be done, DO IT.

RotaryEvolution

iTrader: (30)

well most car manufacturers have an expansion chamber in the intake which i'm sure it is there for a reason, my guess is to keep the amount of air entering each port perfectly even, with IDAs they may flow at slightly varying rates which can in turn kill power without you even knowing it. IMO a plenum design would be better.

SonicRaT

iTrader: (6)

If you don't have access to welding equipment/etc, then how are you not going to use the TII intakes? You can't chop up the stock LIM like Aaron did, nor make a custom upper intake & tb setup, so what are you going to do differently then?

True, however I'm not sure how an expansion/dynamic chamber would really help solve that issue, from examples I've setup using water and timed valves alternating (I get extremely bored), I've always had better luck without a chamber, but then again in this setup I always had this chamber before the throttle plates (not that I believe it would make that much of a difference). I think I'll go ahead and fabricate two similar designs and swap them out on a dyno and see if I can notice any changes, though that's not a very good indicator as length/etc will be affected, it might show me some results. I'd believe by your saying that they flow at different rates you refer to the front and rear throttle bodies, if this were the case, flow easily moves pass the lesser of the two (at least from what i've seen with water). However, I do understand that if for instance the front rotor were closed that with a dynamic chamber, there's more room for turbulence but still having even flow to the rear rotor, rather than my 3" tube where any turbulence off the front rotor could possibly create disturbance for the rear (though, as I said, when I tested this I didn't notice anything severe, especially in comparison to the pipe and welded runner method.) Anybody ever cut the stock TII chamber in half? My guess would be that it has the large expansion area as well as smooth directed runners, in an attempt to get the best of both worlds.

Anyway, sorry for getting off topic, it's nice to actually talk about intake manifold designs with people who've done it!

Aaron Cake

iTrader: (1)

Just for breakin. I'm doing this because I already had the parts fabbed up, and if I put the big turbo on there I won't have the self control to not do something stupid. I can still drive the car on the stock stuff while I fab up the new turbo manifold. At least it means that I can spend time tuning it out of boost.

I'm actually going to go with a different turbo. After having some experience with the GT35 on a VW GTI, I'm not convinced it's right for my application. The T3 hotside is very small. Even if I can get the A/Rs I want the flange is a little puny.

As for the manifold, I'll be building it myself since my application is kind of unique. I'll be using the RB exhaust flange, my own turbo flange and the runners will be SCH 40 weld els (available at any industrial plumbing store for pennies). I generally don't like the nice stainless manifolds because I can always hear a distinct "pinging" sound resonating from them. I hate that because it drives me crazy.

staticguitar313

iTrader: (2)

My current plan is to keep all the stock intake parts minus the aux ports and their actuators. I'm not going to space out the stock turbo exhaust manifold 2" like aaron did the first time, i'm having somone fab me up a stainless manifold the locates the turbo out of the way,so i get to keep all my emissions and i wont have to notch the frame.

fd3s7007

excellent. very comprehensive work.

RotaryEvolution

iTrader: (30)

they will allow you to pass emissions in AZ with a swap like this?

might want to check the emissions laws so you can plan accordingly. in Ca without a California air resources board approved sticker any modification to the engine or control system is illegal. basically out here it is all out or stock.

SonicRaT

iTrader: (6)

You should talk to 'Zero R' or whatever his name is from the Single Turbo section (The Aspec Tuning guy if I remember?) and see about his T4 35R's, doesn't get any better than that!

Aaron Cake

iTrader: (1)

Buy a DC stick welder used for about $200-$300 of at least 100A, get a book on welding and then practice. Don't get an AC "buzz box" because you can't weld aluminium (not that stick welding ALU is easy by any means, nor pretty...).

Don't start with MIG because it will teach you bad habits.

I'll have to browse that section and see what I find...

(I'm leaving the computer for a little while...When I come back I'll reply to your previous post as I think I have some ideas)

staticguitar313

iTrader: (2)

I've welded before, just dont own a unit, done Stick and Wire but no TIG,