Interested in a FULL break kit ... tried searching
03-13-07, 10:45 AM
#26
Passing life by
The slots were to allow escaping of the gases from between the pads and rotor. The thing is with the fade 90% of the people on this forum wouldn't know what brake fade felt like or what you actually experience when brakes are being over worked. Within one lap on my TII system I am already experiencing over heating brakes running DOT4 fluid. What you will start to receive is longer braking distance and the pads will start to bite the rotors instead of glide across them. This is a sign of over heating and what you will experience first. As this continues the fluid begins to boil over. I have pulled in from track sessions and had no fluid left in my reservoir. You will also start to experience this first off as the rotors begin to over heat. I could also just stab my brakes and the sudden force will lock the tires up and I could do this with stock doge neon brakes. I could also do this on a F1 car with stock dodge neon brakes. Do you think there a reason they do not run stock neon brakes? Sure the more contact patch you can receive the more grater friction zone you have to dissipate heat and greater stopping force can be applied wit out snatching the rotor still and locking up. The grater surface zone I can cover and the larger my caliper is the less heat zone is directed as well I have more material and fluid to dissipate the heat keeping my entire braking system cooler. If I could lockup and I could a corvette Z06 with Honda civic brakes and rotors why would they waste all that money on 6piston 13in rotor combinations? If I could lock it up and I can why would the bigger system stop the car faster?
03-13-07, 11:10 AM
#27
Simple answer, its a heavier car. Size of brakes has as much to do with the weight of the car as anythinig. Putting civic brakes on a vette would be silly, the vette out weighs the civic by more than 1000 lbs. (in most cases)
As far as boiling fluid. What does the DoT number have to do with it? There is racing brake fluid (blue, Motul, etc) and there is the standard stuff. If you run standard brake fluid at a brake heavy track you are asking for fade.
Iceblue, sounds to me like you should try some high boiling point fluid if you havnt already. And because you havnt mentioned it im guessing you havint.
Boiling your fluid has as much to do with driver style as it does size of brakes. The longer and lighter you step on the brakes the more heat builds up. It's better to brake harder and less because then it gives the rotors and pads more cooldown time in between.
Compared with the combination of driving style, pad and rotor quality, and brake ducting, larger parts is by far the last and smallest step to improve overall braking peformance. And for most people they will never ever truly gain anything from larger parts. Even if they track thier cars. The stock 4-pot/fully vented setup is REALLY nice as stock setups go.
Primarily its a cost benefit argument.
In order of importance upgrade:
Pad & rotor material and design (not size).
Fluid (bleed and flush often)
Brake Lines
Ducting
THEN if you still are having trouble with brakes going away because you do long track sessions with a high HP car and R-comps THEN upgrade the part sizes.
As far as boiling fluid. What does the DoT number have to do with it? There is racing brake fluid (blue, Motul, etc) and there is the standard stuff. If you run standard brake fluid at a brake heavy track you are asking for fade.
Iceblue, sounds to me like you should try some high boiling point fluid if you havnt already. And because you havnt mentioned it im guessing you havint.
Boiling your fluid has as much to do with driver style as it does size of brakes. The longer and lighter you step on the brakes the more heat builds up. It's better to brake harder and less because then it gives the rotors and pads more cooldown time in between.
Compared with the combination of driving style, pad and rotor quality, and brake ducting, larger parts is by far the last and smallest step to improve overall braking peformance. And for most people they will never ever truly gain anything from larger parts. Even if they track thier cars. The stock 4-pot/fully vented setup is REALLY nice as stock setups go.
Primarily its a cost benefit argument.
In order of importance upgrade:
Pad & rotor material and design (not size).
Fluid (bleed and flush often)
Brake Lines
Ducting
THEN if you still are having trouble with brakes going away because you do long track sessions with a high HP car and R-comps THEN upgrade the part sizes.
03-13-07, 11:28 AM
#28
Passing life by
What on earth are you talking about the DOT has everything to do with it as the DOT specifying the boiling point of the fluid and thermal brake down range. The highest grade is DOT5 synthetic and doesn't move the point to much higher then DOT4. Yes I run both and have for years.
You apparently failed to comprehend the comparison of the civic brakes on the vett as well failed to realize the exstreamley huge comparison between the two brakes and yet the civic brakes could still lock up the tires.
Driver style only plays a minor roll when you drive so fast and got to go to such a slow speed to make a corner so much braking power is needed regardless of how you use the brakes. There is a correct way and a wrong way with little room for style to be interpreted.
You either practice correctly to become bettor or you practice wrongly to not improve.
You apparently failed to comprehend the comparison of the civic brakes on the vett as well failed to realize the exstreamley huge comparison between the two brakes and yet the civic brakes could still lock up the tires.
Driver style only plays a minor roll when you drive so fast and got to go to such a slow speed to make a corner so much braking power is needed regardless of how you use the brakes. There is a correct way and a wrong way with little room for style to be interpreted.
You either practice correctly to become bettor or you practice wrongly to not improve.
03-13-07, 11:35 AM
#29
sorry, minor corrections.
DOT 5.1 is the best and most expensive grade of fluid. Please do not put DOT 5 in your cars. You can search to see the differences between the two.
When I mentioned clamping force, I inteded the discussion on FC brakes supporting an FC only. The intention was that the extra clamping force that a bigger brake kit offers does not help you if you've already reached that force limit before your tires lock. No one's going to disagree with you that bigger is better. Fade resistance is key when racing hard lap after lap. A lot of people feel that the money can be better spent on other parts before brakes to shave off lap times. Especially, since the majority of these "racers" will most likely only go to their local autox and not want to spend the money getting themselves to the level of actual road racing. Pretty much, the question that should be asked is, "What should I get if I'm the typical FC driver here on these forums?" The first thing that comes to mind should not be a big brake kit.
DOT 5.1 is the best and most expensive grade of fluid. Please do not put DOT 5 in your cars. You can search to see the differences between the two.
When I mentioned clamping force, I inteded the discussion on FC brakes supporting an FC only. The intention was that the extra clamping force that a bigger brake kit offers does not help you if you've already reached that force limit before your tires lock. No one's going to disagree with you that bigger is better. Fade resistance is key when racing hard lap after lap. A lot of people feel that the money can be better spent on other parts before brakes to shave off lap times. Especially, since the majority of these "racers" will most likely only go to their local autox and not want to spend the money getting themselves to the level of actual road racing. Pretty much, the question that should be asked is, "What should I get if I'm the typical FC driver here on these forums?" The first thing that comes to mind should not be a big brake kit.
03-13-07, 12:09 PM
#30
Passing life by
Correct you can not just toss in DOT5 you need a virgin brake system hence why I stated DOT4. Again correct and agreed there is a limit of force the tire can handle before locking up depending on tire and compound. If this is the case a bigger kit wont relay help much, but this is not to be confused with the ability to slam on the brakes and lock them up.
There is a reason big brake kits cost $2,000 to $5,000 and a reason full track race brakes cost you $40,000 dolors. Big difference, there also a reason your FC brakes cost $300 dolors at napa.
Boiling Point Ranges
Dry Boiling Point Wet Boiling Point
DOT 3 205°C (401°F) 140°C (284°F)
DOT 4 230°C (446°F) 155°C (311°F)
DOT 5 260°C (500°F) 180°C (356°F)
DOT 5.1 270°C (518°F) 191°C (375°F)
There is a reason big brake kits cost $2,000 to $5,000 and a reason full track race brakes cost you $40,000 dolors. Big difference, there also a reason your FC brakes cost $300 dolors at napa.
Boiling Point Ranges
Dry Boiling Point Wet Boiling Point
DOT 3 205°C (401°F) 140°C (284°F)
DOT 4 230°C (446°F) 155°C (311°F)
DOT 5 260°C (500°F) 180°C (356°F)
DOT 5.1 270°C (518°F) 191°C (375°F)
03-13-07, 01:02 PM
#32
Rider of the Sky
Originally Posted by Roen
About slotted rotors, I used to be a fan, but I'm not quite sure anymore. I don't believe they offer anymore than solid rotors. The slots were meant to clean off brake dust, if I remember correctly. This stuff would form a layer between pad and rotor, and worsen brake performance. I don't believe modern pads do that anymore, and the slots will worsen the brakes ability to retain heat and not transfer that heat to the fluid.
I've always been under the opinion that if you can lock your tires, the best upgrade to reduce stopping distance is to buy grippier tires. If you can't lock your tires, then buy bigger/ more effective brakes.
I've always been under the opinion that if you can lock your tires, the best upgrade to reduce stopping distance is to buy grippier tires. If you can't lock your tires, then buy bigger/ more effective brakes.
There are three approaches to rotor cuts for reducing the different kinds of brake fade. Dimpling/pitting is soley for green fade, by providing spaces for vaporized brake material to be carried away from the pad without significantly affecting the amount of braking surface or compromising the strength of the rotor.
Crossdrilling helps with green fade in the same way, but also reduces the mass of the rotor and increases its surface area. This allows it to cool faster and control fade from overheating, as hotter pads have a lower coefficient of friction. Reducing the rotor mass also helps with high-speed cornering, as the gyroscopic energies of a steel rotor can actually affect the handling. Crossdrilling isn't used so much anymore for competition (only show and street sport) as it weakens the rotor, and there are more effective ways of reducing mass and cooling -- including the use of exotic materials and better ducting.
The last is the method you mentioned: slotting. The purpose isn't for clearing brake dust, rather it combats both types of fade by shaving off a few microns from the pad surface with every rotation during braking. This keeps a fresh, uncompromised pad surface against the rotor at all times. The downside is you go through pads much faster but on the track that's an acceptable loss.
Another thing I noticed is the ability to lock your brakes is being referred to too heavily as a mean for measuring effective braking power. The brakes off an EK could lock up a dump truck's wheels if applied hard enough, but in no way is that an effective system. The misconception comes from the fact that proper way to rate a system is effective braking power UP TO the point of seizure. Better brakes have a higher level of kinetic friction, meaning they can excert more friction while still allowing movement, before making the jump to lockup. In the above example, an EK's brakes would do almost nothing to slow the vehicle, then suddenly lock the wheels when enough force was finally applied.
The absolute optimum for maximum braking is 10% slip, meaning the wheel makes 9 rotations across the distance that would normally take 10 rotations without the brakes applied. Bigger brakes, better pads, better fluids, and proper foot control in correct proportions are needed to attain and maintain that. Huge brakes with crappy pads, grippy pads and tiny rotors, or a panicy foot won't cut it.
03-13-07, 01:39 PM
#33
Crossdrilling used to help, until it was shown, and unintentionally proven, that removing the metal of the rotor caused it to crack when used hard on the track.
http://www.fc3spro.com/TECH/MODS/BRAKES/rotors.htm
I see where the misconception is coming from, i had the wrong idea as well, but for the hapless that read this and decide "I need bigger brakes now first thing!", my advice is "NO YOU DON'T" There are better things to spend your money on than big brake kits. As iceblue pointed out, good ones are minimum 2k, less if you're lucky, and that money could be put to better use.
When I do go to big brakes after exhausting every other option, I'll most likely keep the slotted rotor. Personal preference is the reason for me.
http://www.fc3spro.com/TECH/MODS/BRAKES/rotors.htm
I see where the misconception is coming from, i had the wrong idea as well, but for the hapless that read this and decide "I need bigger brakes now first thing!", my advice is "NO YOU DON'T" There are better things to spend your money on than big brake kits. As iceblue pointed out, good ones are minimum 2k, less if you're lucky, and that money could be put to better use.
When I do go to big brakes after exhausting every other option, I'll most likely keep the slotted rotor. Personal preference is the reason for me.
03-13-07, 02:47 PM
#34
So much ignorance Blue i dont know where to begin. You far over simlplify alot of this stuff then go attacking others for ignorance. It's almost out of hand.
Yes the DoT rates fluids PARTIALLY on wet and dry boilding point temperatures but it is based on a assumptive assessment of the composition being very simple.
When has wet boiling point mattered at all on a properly maintained brake system? (Flush the fluid once a year with new fluid and make sure your system is sealed well and you dont really need to worry about wet boiling point. Further on a track car it's a non factor (again if properly maintained).
Now if your little chart is so correct and all encompassing then how do you explain
MOTUL having a dry boiling point of 593 yet being DoT 4 rated?
The fact is your chart is neither cause or effect of one another DoT rating and true product boiling points are realistically independent in every way. If you pay attention to DoT rating to decide what is the best fluid to buy you could end up with "napa" 2.99 200°F and a bottle of 15$ motul with nearly tripple that in dry boiling point. But hey both are DoT 4, make yourself a cocktail!!!
http://www.stoptech.com/tech_info/wp...fluid_1a.shtml
And to say that all FC brakes are 300$ napa variety is like saying all FCs have 160 HP engines.
Ive spent well over 1000$ on upgrading my "stock" brake system with better components but they are all the same size and design as stock, just better materials and revised ducting.
Yes the DoT rates fluids PARTIALLY on wet and dry boilding point temperatures but it is based on a assumptive assessment of the composition being very simple.
When has wet boiling point mattered at all on a properly maintained brake system? (Flush the fluid once a year with new fluid and make sure your system is sealed well and you dont really need to worry about wet boiling point. Further on a track car it's a non factor (again if properly maintained).
Now if your little chart is so correct and all encompassing then how do you explain
MOTUL having a dry boiling point of 593 yet being DoT 4 rated?
The fact is your chart is neither cause or effect of one another DoT rating and true product boiling points are realistically independent in every way. If you pay attention to DoT rating to decide what is the best fluid to buy you could end up with "napa" 2.99 200°F and a bottle of 15$ motul with nearly tripple that in dry boiling point. But hey both are DoT 4, make yourself a cocktail!!!
http://www.stoptech.com/tech_info/wp...fluid_1a.shtml
And to say that all FC brakes are 300$ napa variety is like saying all FCs have 160 HP engines.
Ive spent well over 1000$ on upgrading my "stock" brake system with better components but they are all the same size and design as stock, just better materials and revised ducting.
03-13-07, 04:30 PM
#35
Lovin my 7
Originally Posted by Black91n/a
Cryo treating is bogus, nothing special happens to the metal when you cool it, it's not like a heat treatment that way.
Are you serious??? This is a proven treatment. Your right simply cooling metal does nothing but when it is brought to -185 degrees Celsius or under -300 Fahrenheit, it enters a state of molecular relaxation. Which forces out impurities such as retained austenite (large, unstable particles of carbon carbide) from steel. Which is what heat tempering was designed to help do away with. Also the heat is not what forces the impurities out it is the cooling or "quenching" process.
Some more information:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cryogenic_tempering
03-13-07, 06:30 PM
#37
r o t a r y
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Originally Posted by Delphince
The absolute optimum for maximum braking is 10% slip
Good tires should be the first braking/handling upgrade. Brake upgrades won't help as much as good tires.
just my thoughts
03-13-07, 06:49 PM
#38
Passing life by
Originally Posted by Delphince
Crossdrilling helps with green fade in the same way, but also reduces the mass of the rotor and increases its surface area. This allows it to cool faster and control fade from overheating, as hotter pads have a lower coefficient of friction. Reducing the rotor mass also helps with high-speed cornering, as the gyroscopic energies of a steel rotor can actually affect the handling. Crossdrilling isn't used so much anymore for competition (only show and street sport) as it weakens the rotor, and there are more effective ways of reducing mass and cooling -- including the use of exotic materials and better ducting.
Originally Posted by Darrick Dong; Director of Motorsports at Performance Friction.
"In the days of asbestos pads there was a gas boundary layer that appeared at the interface area of the pad and rotor. Although that gas boundary layer still occurs it is much less of a problem with modern friction materials. Slots are more than adequate to carry that gas away. Years ago that gas boundary, along with reducing weight, led to the popularity of drilled rotors. However, in the intervening period, the myth has persisted that cooling is the main reason for drilled rotors. Anyone that tells you that drilling makes the disc run cooler is smoking crack."
Darrick Dong; Director of Motorsports at Performance Friction: "Anyone that tells you that drilling makes the disc run cooler is smoking crack."
Power Slot: "At one time the conventional wisdom in racing circles was to cross-drill brake rotors to aid cooling and eliminate the gas emitted by brake pads. However, today’s elite teams in open wheel, Indy and Trans Am racing are moving away from crack prone, cross-drilled brake rotors in favor of rotors modified with a fatigue resistant slotting process."
Stop Tech: "StopTech provides rotors slotted, drilled or plain. For most performance applications slotted is the preferred choice. Slotting helps wipe away debris from between the pad and rotor as well as increasing the "bite" characteristics of the pad. A drilled rotor provides the same type of benefit, but is more susceptible to cracking under severe usage. Many customers prefer the look of a drilled rotor and for street and occasional light duty track use they will work fine. For more severe applications, we recommend slotted rotors." (Note that even though Stop Tech sells both drilled and slotted rotors they do not recommend drilled rotors for severe applications.)
Wilwood: "Q: Why are some rotors drilled or slotted?
A: Rotors are drilled to reduce rotating weight, an issue near and dear to racers searching for ways to minimize unsprung weight. Drilling diminishes a rotor's durability and cooling capacity."
From Waren Gilliand: (Warren Gilliland is a well-known brake engineer in the racing industry and has more than 32 years experience in custom designing brake systems ...he became the main source for improving the brake systems on a variety of different race vehicles from midgets to Nascar Winston Cup cars.) "If you cross drill one of these vented rotors, you are creating a stress riser that will encourage the rotor to crack right through the hole. Many of the rotors available in the aftermarket are nothing more than inexpensive offshore manufactured stock replacement rotors, cross drilled to appeal to the performance market. They are not performance rotors and will have a corresponding high failure rate"
From Baer: "What are the benefits to Crossdrilling, Slotting, and Zinc-Washing my rotors?
In years past, crossdrilling and/or Slotting the rotor for racing purposes was beneficial by providing a way to expel the gasses created when the bonding agents employed to manufacture the pads...However, with today’s race pad technology, ‘outgassing’ is no longer much of a concern...Slotted surfaces are what Baer recommends for track only use. Slotted only rotors are offered as an option for any of Baer’s offerings."
Grassroots Motorsports: "Crossdrilling your rotors might look neat, but what is it really doing for you? Well, unless your car is using brake pads from the '40s and 50s, not a whole lot. Rotors were first drilled because early brake pad materials gave off gasses when heated to racing temperatures, a process known as "gassing out." ...It was an effective solution, but today's friction materials do not exhibit the some gassing out phenomenon as the early pads. Contrary to popular belief, they don't lower temperatures. (In fact, by removing weight from the rotor, they can actually cause temperatures to increase a little.) These holes create stress risers that allow the rotor to crack sooner, and make a mess of brake pads--sort of like a cheese grater rubbing against them at every stop. Want more evidence? Look at NASCAR or F1. You would think that if drilling holes in the rotor was the hot ticket, these teams would be doing it...Slotting rotors, on the other hand, might be a consideration if your sanctioning body allows for it. Cutting thin slots across the face of the rotor can actually help to clean the face of the brake pads over time, helping to reduce the glazing often found during high-speed use which can lower the coefficient of friction. While there may still be a small concern over creating stress risers in the face of the rotor, if the slots are shallow and cut properly, the trade-off appears to be worth the risk. (Have you looked at a NASCAR rotor lately?)
AP Racing: "Grooves improve 'cleaning' of the pad surfaces and result in a more consistent brake performance. Grooved discs have a longer life than cross-drilled discs."
also from AP: "Cross drilled...can compromise disc life. Radiused drilled...mainly used for aesthetic reasons on road applications."
Power Slot: "At one time the conventional wisdom in racing circles was to cross-drill brake rotors to aid cooling and eliminate the gas emitted by brake pads. However, today’s elite teams in open wheel, Indy and Trans Am racing are moving away from crack prone, cross-drilled brake rotors in favor of rotors modified with a fatigue resistant slotting process."
Stop Tech: "StopTech provides rotors slotted, drilled or plain. For most performance applications slotted is the preferred choice. Slotting helps wipe away debris from between the pad and rotor as well as increasing the "bite" characteristics of the pad. A drilled rotor provides the same type of benefit, but is more susceptible to cracking under severe usage. Many customers prefer the look of a drilled rotor and for street and occasional light duty track use they will work fine. For more severe applications, we recommend slotted rotors." (Note that even though Stop Tech sells both drilled and slotted rotors they do not recommend drilled rotors for severe applications.)
Wilwood: "Q: Why are some rotors drilled or slotted?
A: Rotors are drilled to reduce rotating weight, an issue near and dear to racers searching for ways to minimize unsprung weight. Drilling diminishes a rotor's durability and cooling capacity."
From Waren Gilliand: (Warren Gilliland is a well-known brake engineer in the racing industry and has more than 32 years experience in custom designing brake systems ...he became the main source for improving the brake systems on a variety of different race vehicles from midgets to Nascar Winston Cup cars.) "If you cross drill one of these vented rotors, you are creating a stress riser that will encourage the rotor to crack right through the hole. Many of the rotors available in the aftermarket are nothing more than inexpensive offshore manufactured stock replacement rotors, cross drilled to appeal to the performance market. They are not performance rotors and will have a corresponding high failure rate"
From Baer: "What are the benefits to Crossdrilling, Slotting, and Zinc-Washing my rotors?
In years past, crossdrilling and/or Slotting the rotor for racing purposes was beneficial by providing a way to expel the gasses created when the bonding agents employed to manufacture the pads...However, with today’s race pad technology, ‘outgassing’ is no longer much of a concern...Slotted surfaces are what Baer recommends for track only use. Slotted only rotors are offered as an option for any of Baer’s offerings."
Grassroots Motorsports: "Crossdrilling your rotors might look neat, but what is it really doing for you? Well, unless your car is using brake pads from the '40s and 50s, not a whole lot. Rotors were first drilled because early brake pad materials gave off gasses when heated to racing temperatures, a process known as "gassing out." ...It was an effective solution, but today's friction materials do not exhibit the some gassing out phenomenon as the early pads. Contrary to popular belief, they don't lower temperatures. (In fact, by removing weight from the rotor, they can actually cause temperatures to increase a little.) These holes create stress risers that allow the rotor to crack sooner, and make a mess of brake pads--sort of like a cheese grater rubbing against them at every stop. Want more evidence? Look at NASCAR or F1. You would think that if drilling holes in the rotor was the hot ticket, these teams would be doing it...Slotting rotors, on the other hand, might be a consideration if your sanctioning body allows for it. Cutting thin slots across the face of the rotor can actually help to clean the face of the brake pads over time, helping to reduce the glazing often found during high-speed use which can lower the coefficient of friction. While there may still be a small concern over creating stress risers in the face of the rotor, if the slots are shallow and cut properly, the trade-off appears to be worth the risk. (Have you looked at a NASCAR rotor lately?)
AP Racing: "Grooves improve 'cleaning' of the pad surfaces and result in a more consistent brake performance. Grooved discs have a longer life than cross-drilled discs."
also from AP: "Cross drilled...can compromise disc life. Radiused drilled...mainly used for aesthetic reasons on road applications."
Last edited by iceblue; 03-13-07 at 07:05 PM.
03-13-07, 06:52 PM
#39
I would recommend looking into AWR Racing's brake kits. They are stock sizes, but are lighter and will help reduce unsprung weight. If you have 4 piston brakes up front and vented discs in the rear, I'd suggest working with those first, and if they are not up to par, upgrade afterwards.
I've had upgraded brake kits on my last car, from AEM, and it definatly made a big difference in brake feel. It didnt make the the car stop faster on its own, but made the feel of the brakes much much better, as though you can modulate the pedal pressure more precisely. And Cryo treating is something to consider to aid in rotor life, but wont make a difference in stop times. As far as slotted rotors go, I would say, go for it, but avoid the cross drilled ones if possible. Especially the cheaper models, which are just blanks with some holes in em, which can crack with repeated abuse that a track car will see.
One thought of keeping brake fluid cooler was using a titanium backing for the brake pad that will possibly help reduce the heat transfer from brake pad to brake fluid. I dont know anything about the thermal properties of titanuim vs steel, but it seems to be worth some more research. I just saw this on a group buy on this forum, but again, I didnt do any research on these, so they may just be more hype than there worth.
People argue too much on the forum over small details. I'd say go with what you want, and experiance it for yourself, then decide if you want to take a different path if it doesnt float your boat.
I've had upgraded brake kits on my last car, from AEM, and it definatly made a big difference in brake feel. It didnt make the the car stop faster on its own, but made the feel of the brakes much much better, as though you can modulate the pedal pressure more precisely. And Cryo treating is something to consider to aid in rotor life, but wont make a difference in stop times. As far as slotted rotors go, I would say, go for it, but avoid the cross drilled ones if possible. Especially the cheaper models, which are just blanks with some holes in em, which can crack with repeated abuse that a track car will see.
One thought of keeping brake fluid cooler was using a titanium backing for the brake pad that will possibly help reduce the heat transfer from brake pad to brake fluid. I dont know anything about the thermal properties of titanuim vs steel, but it seems to be worth some more research. I just saw this on a group buy on this forum, but again, I didnt do any research on these, so they may just be more hype than there worth.
People argue too much on the forum over small details. I'd say go with what you want, and experiance it for yourself, then decide if you want to take a different path if it doesnt float your boat.
03-13-07, 08:25 PM
#41
Lives on the Forum
Ford DOT3 has a 550 degree boiling point, so the DOT # doesn't fix the temp, it's a MINIMUM guideline.
Yes locking power is part of the equation of "do I have enough brakes" but if you can lock them up and don't have problems with fade, you can't make use of bigger brakes, they'll probably make you slower due to increased weight.
The stock brakes are fine, this isn't heresay, I haven't seen ONE FC at the races with other than stock brakes (tons with stock) and they do just fine. I've tracked my car with stock brakes, high temp fluid and race pads with no issues. Solid disks are fine, no issues and are SOOO much cheaper. Even if the fancy rotors lasted twice as long, they cost more than twice as much as the cheap NAPA ones, so it's not worth it. There's also not going to be much/any performance difference.
If you want to improve feel then make yourself a brake master cylinder brace, it makes a noticable difference, this is from first hand experiance.
If you come in to the pits with an empty MC, then something's wrong, fade shouldn't do that, the fluid has to go somewhere, you're leaking.
There's so much crap in this thread it's unbeleivable. It seems that half the people have are talking out their ***.
Yes locking power is part of the equation of "do I have enough brakes" but if you can lock them up and don't have problems with fade, you can't make use of bigger brakes, they'll probably make you slower due to increased weight.
The stock brakes are fine, this isn't heresay, I haven't seen ONE FC at the races with other than stock brakes (tons with stock) and they do just fine. I've tracked my car with stock brakes, high temp fluid and race pads with no issues. Solid disks are fine, no issues and are SOOO much cheaper. Even if the fancy rotors lasted twice as long, they cost more than twice as much as the cheap NAPA ones, so it's not worth it. There's also not going to be much/any performance difference.
If you want to improve feel then make yourself a brake master cylinder brace, it makes a noticable difference, this is from first hand experiance.
If you come in to the pits with an empty MC, then something's wrong, fade shouldn't do that, the fluid has to go somewhere, you're leaking.
There's so much crap in this thread it's unbeleivable. It seems that half the people have are talking out their ***.
03-13-07, 08:53 PM
#42
Passing life by
Originally Posted by Black91n/a
If you come in to the pits with an empty MC, then something's wrong, fade shouldn't do that, the fluid has to go somewhere, you're leaking.
03-13-07, 11:03 PM
#43
Lives on the Forum
The fluid boils in the caliper, it only takes a few small bubbles to get a really soft pedal, the gas stays in the caliper. If the fluid in your reservoir is boiling then there's something seriously wrong.
03-14-07, 11:42 AM
#47
I ran cross drilled rotors only once and they cracked almost imediatlly on track.
Cross drilling is really only helpful on trucks for towing. The only benefit ive ever seen from crossdrilling is resistance to warping on pickups while towing.
Iceblue is 1 step away from "My dad can beat up your dad!" land...
Cross drilling is really only helpful on trucks for towing. The only benefit ive ever seen from crossdrilling is resistance to warping on pickups while towing.
Iceblue is 1 step away from "My dad can beat up your dad!" land...
03-14-07, 03:45 PM
#48
Rider of the Sky
Originally Posted by iceblue
Smoking again?
Originally gathered by damonB from FAQ's.
Originally gathered by damonB from FAQ's.
Reducing mass and increasing surface area doesn't make them run cooler, genius, it makes them recover faster from heating to be cooler at the next turn. Furthermore, as I stated, cross-drilling isn't used as a competition staple anymore as titanium, magnesium, and carbon composites handle the weight reduction factor more efficiently, and slotting takes care of both kinds of fade.
03-14-07, 03:50 PM
#49
Rider of the Sky
Originally Posted by ultrataco
wouldn't that depend on the tires?
Good tires should be the first braking/handling upgrade. Brake upgrades won't help as much as good tires.
just my thoughts
Good tires should be the first braking/handling upgrade. Brake upgrades won't help as much as good tires.
just my thoughts
03-14-07, 04:44 PM
#50
Eats, Sleeps, Dreams Rotary
Not to mention, the more tire grip you have, the more front bias the brakes need (more grip = more weight transfered to the front), the more of a load you put on your front brakes.
I can't believe more FC tuners in Japan, etc (with big brakes and such) don't have adjuster valves... for just an engine bay mount it's apparently much simplier to install than you'd think (according to Flying Miata at least).
In one Option video with the Takeyari FC build up (RE Amemiya), they put big brakes on it, but no adjuster, and it had drivability issues that caused it to not be able to get the best time.
Apparently most Japanese tuners adjust the bias by changing the grade of brake pads... which is amuzing since a set of ENDLESS pads cost 5 times what a bias valve costs.
Although, the FC supposedly has a valve that puts more and more pressure on the front, the more you harder you press.
I can't believe more FC tuners in Japan, etc (with big brakes and such) don't have adjuster valves... for just an engine bay mount it's apparently much simplier to install than you'd think (according to Flying Miata at least).
In one Option video with the Takeyari FC build up (RE Amemiya), they put big brakes on it, but no adjuster, and it had drivability issues that caused it to not be able to get the best time.
Apparently most Japanese tuners adjust the bias by changing the grade of brake pads... which is amuzing since a set of ENDLESS pads cost 5 times what a bias valve costs.
Although, the FC supposedly has a valve that puts more and more pressure on the front, the more you harder you press.