RotaryResurrection

iTrader: (8)

You've obviously thought this out, but I think you're heading in the wrong direction.

IMO, when you supply a "kit" to people, realize that you're dealing with all sorts of people. Some are mechanically inclined with common sense and previous wrench time, and know what the do's and don'ts of these cars are. And others are literally clueless. I see this on a daily basis in my line of work. IF you're going to sell something custom to someone, you almost have to make it idiot proof, or you're going to run into problems. Theyll be tearing **** up, they won't be able to figure out how it goes together, and you'll have to answer the phone calls and the emails and take care of it all.

You'll save yourself a lot of trouble of you put it together in such a way that it can only go together one way, with no variation, and supply a single set of well illustrated instructions including color photos and removal/installation notes just as if you were the one working on their car, giving them tips and ideas along the way to avoid common snags.

IF I were looking at doing something like this, here's the direction I would go with it. All of them would use new or rebuilt turbo parts, and all would be supplied with a turbo. Letting people source their own turbo will open the door to mass confusion about what does and does not fit, given that turbine housings and compressor housings are different sizes, angles, and locations, and flanges can differ as well (between stock and t4, for example). I don't see that you could offer a single manifold, or a single downpipe, for all the kits if you allow them to use different turbos, because each install would then be unique based upon turbine housing choice.

Kit 1 would be the entry level kit designed for the guy without much money, or the guy just wanting a bit more get up and go. It would use a smaller turbo, similar in size to a stock turbo, or perhaps even a rebuilt stock unit. IF you get in good with a decent turbo builder you could get them done. Depending on how you go with this, you could either do wastegate porting on this stocker, or just block that off entirely and run an external wastegate in the manifold. You supply SS braided oil and water lines and fittings. For water supply and return I'd just give them some universal metal fittings to tap into the lower and upper radiator hoses, or maybe the throttlebody coolant lines...no drilling and tapping should be necessary, it's too easy to screw up a housing or an engine block for someone who doesnt know what they're doing. For oil I'd use one of those add-on pedestal attatchments like racing beat sells, and draw oil feed from there...put a plug in the other hole (there are normally 2) but leave the option to hook up a temp or pressure sensor there as well, if they want to remove the plug later. For oil drain you supply the line, and a stock FC oilpan modded to hook the line up to...just about anyone should have the ability to replace their oilpan, plus it gives them a good excuse to reseal their gasket which probably leaks anyway. You can get FC oilpans all day for nothing, and they're all the same thing for s4 and s5, turbo and non, so there are no interchange problems. Supply them with a 70* bend of 2.5 or 3" aluminum tube for a TID. Supply them with a downpipe that fits up to the stock main cat (or any stock replacement midpipe). IF including an external wastegate, vent it back into the downpipe so it's clean and quiet. Then I'd just throw in an adjustable FPR and a high flow fuel pump. Let them worry about their own intercooler and piping. This setup would run around 5-6psi and should be safe as is, around the 200-225rwhp mark. I'd price it around $1500-1800.

Kit B would be all of kit A, plus an FMIC setup, similar to the oldschool HKS system, with both pipe runs on the passengers side, and a medium size core that does NOT require cutting or removing the front bumper or reinforcement. Since the NA's intake is pointed that way, it works perfectly. Include a BOV with this, with flange already welded on. You could also consider adding a set of secondary injectors, which are easy to replace, and an safc (brand new, with base maps for this set of mods and instructions on how to set those maps up). The setup still runs at 5-6psi, but should be safe to 10. Add $800-1200 to the price of kit A. You could probably advertise hp for the kit around 250rwhp.

Kit C would include a totally different manifold, turbo, and downpipe, with external wastegate. Make it a medium turbo like a t04E, somethign with decent spool and decent pull all around. hook up with a new turbo supplier and get them for a few hundred each brand new. Include the FMIC kit from kit B along with those fuel mods. Consider a single or dual stage waterinjection kit as well. Sell this one for around 3500-4000. Hey, they ask that for a supercharger kit that adds 40rwhp. You could probably advertise this one as 300+rwhp easily.

ddub

The way the greddy kit comes for the rx8 is retarded for oil return IMO. I think they realized it wasn't the best too, which is why they've since made a custom oil pan to go along with the kit. Not only does it have more capacity but I think it has an extra part just for the drain, that's better than the plug.

SonicRaT

iTrader: (6)

Thanks for the advice. It is VERY well considered, and because of it I definatly am considering changing that. My biggest issue was outsourcing having to rebuild turbos if I stock them myself, though I do understand your point. I'll see what I can do, and I'm definatly quite serious about going 'all the way' through with the project.

KillaKitiie

This sounds interesting lets hear more guys!Dont forget us na guys dont know much about turbo's.(i dont).

Tessai

Nice suggestions, Kevin.

I really do like Sonic's idea of the partial kit, for people like me who already own some of the parts necessary. Perhaps a website setup where you can buy pre-made kits, or select from a list of additional parts? I've already got all the manifolds I need, but I will need oil/coolant supplies. I also need a fuel pump. This site would provide these for me. Also, if theres an FMIC kit with premade hoses, I'd be interested in that as well.

So fuel pump, oil pedestal/lines, coolant lines, 720cc secondaries, and an FMIC setup. I'd probably pay a good $4-500 for this, possibly more depending on the quality and fitment of the FMIC.

For a complete kit with detailed instructions, I would probably pay $2200-2500, maybe more. Again, this would depend on the quality of the parts, as I haven't seen this intake manifold (s) you have planned. These are also ballpark numbers. If you could make a kit that would, with a reasonable amount of reliability, make over 300hp, the $4k+ that Kevin mentioned is not out of the question.

I've subscribed to this thread and will follow it closely. I'd offer my services and help design the web page, but my HTML skills are moderate at best.

Tessai

GAH!!!! My post disappeared!

Basically, what I said was that I agree with Kevin but I like Sonic's idea of a website with partial kits. This would fit me personally a lot better, as I already have intake manifolds/turbo/exhaust manifolds/few other misc parts.

I'd love to see a FMIC kit along with this, with pre-cut pipes. If possible.

How about a "fittings" kit with the oil pedestal/oil lines/coolant lines?
With a "fittings" kit and the above mentioned FMIC kit, I'd be willing to pay at least $500, depending on the quality of the FMIC in question. Throwing in extra goodies like a BOV and/or boost gauge would help the value go up. I wouldn't want anything major in the ways of the BOV, infact I'd prefer a more silent, circulate-to-manifold type than anything allowing me to go "vrrm vrrm PSSHHH" all day.

I also like the idea of complete kits, say, if I were to buy another FC down the road and wanted it to be boosted as well.

I'd be willing to pay about $1.5k for a very basic, stock turbo/TMIC/ 4x550cc kit.
A good $2200-2500 for a complete FMIC, 2x550cc/2x720cc type kit, making the power requiring that extra fuel.

I also agree with Kevin that a 300+ hp kit would be a bargain at $4k. Given how cheap we FC owners typically are, I wouldn't expect to sell many, but the option is always nice. Something to save for.

Would also LOVE for the kits to come with detailed instructions with clear photographs. Color isn't necessary, but is a help.

I'm subscribed to this thread and plan on keeping a close eye on this. I'd offer my assistance with the building of a webpage, but my HTML skills are moderate at best.

SonicRaT

iTrader: (6)

I'm pretty good with the HTML part, and most of it I'll run from 1300cc.com. You're talking about purchasing oil feed lines/coolant lines/etc, but no mention of a manifold. Does this mean you'd just want to purchase a made setup of all the lines and some various things to just complete your setup individually? I never did think of selling various parts off seperately, that's another possibility.

Of course, I'm not about to dive into this and start selling off setups that I don't test first, so don't get your hopes up of buying this tomorrow. I'm going to dyno base cars, bolt everything on, dyno again and provide ACTUAL results of what this does, so that people are informed of what they're getting.

Rotorman: what more would you like to know about?

andrew lohaus

if you just keep the advertising to word of mouth, i dont think youle have to worry as much because a they or a buddy would have seen it here or on a car and at lest be connected to people with a clue about the kit you settle on.

RotaryResurrection

iTrader: (8)

The problem with selling just the parts is that you haven't done anything special. I mean, you can go to ebay, ssautochrome, summit, or any plumbing supplier and get misc fittings, hoses, manifolds, flanges, etc. I see no real reason to dabble in that...either sell a whole kit or nothing at all. OF course how you set it up is your own business.

Now on the other hand, offering a bolt on turbo kit for the NA engines is something that hasnt been done for 10+ years, and that is something truly special and unique...you'll have a whole continent following your progress.

SonicRaT

iTrader: (6)

Yes, this is why I want to sell everything as a 'kit' that's all there so people don't have to go and do it themselves, and it's reliable, built properly, and has some evidence behind it to prove it's capabilities.

NSBerkland

I would be very interested (as in actually buy it) if it was as Kevin suggested. A no way you can screw it up no guess work bolt on every single thing you need kit.

SonicRaT

iTrader: (6)

Ok, does that mean you want the FMIC, injectors, fuel pump, etc as a kit then? With a 100% detailed no-chance of screwing up guide to how it's done? I don't intend to just sell you a bunch of parts and leave you in the dark. I want this to be straight forward, easy to do, and not require whoever buys it to think or custom make anything.

staticguitar313

iTrader: (2)

Im now EXTREMELY interested in the kit and would like to see the finished product/price one question though, are you going to make the manifolds and the whole setup emission freindly aka, are you going to have the correct places for BAC, ACV, all the vacuum stuff, b/c id like to keep my emissions/AC and PS (unlike most)

NSBerkland

yep everything you need and good instructions. Talking like lego instructions, but then again I was only good with those really big legos anyway on a ballpark guess how much do you think a complete kit would cost?

SonicRaT

iTrader: (6)

Ok, BAC I'm aiming to keep, your vac rack should be able to stay in place. The ACV however is being ditched. This does not mean that you can't pass emissions, it means you can't pass a visual sadly. I can attempt to make a device to act like the ACV, and see what it'll take to get it carb legal, but your PS/AC/etc can remain with no issues, you can run a line from the air pump to the cat and you should still pass emissions. Again, these are the things I need to iron out and try to take care of. I'll do all that I can to make it work for everyones needs.

mcnannay

obviously kevin has already thought of this type of thing, and i think its a great idea. Unfortunately you would not have my business if you sold a "complete kit" because i would want to custom build most of my setup. But as far as an intake manifold, you have a preorder waiting, and there is a possibility of more parts i would buy.

There is good reason a turbo kit has not been made thus far....

poeple wont pay for it, and that is truly a shame, but i can't help that cause as an fc owner, and unfortunately im like most out there....

BUT MAKE THE MANIFOLD AND I WILL BUY!

staticguitar313

iTrader: (2)

Damn sucks to be you i could build whatever the **** i wanted out of small legos ( i know i'm being dumb what you said was being used in a metaphoric way . . ) yeah detailed instructions with pics, i'm looking forward to this kit bigtime, i hope its priced good though **crosses fingers** i want too see the manifold thats what intruiging me the most about it b/c its the one part thats really screwy when converting

wthdidusay82

iTrader: (15)

instead of using a fmic couldnt one just use a tII intercooler with a tII hood for up to 10 psi safely with safc and bigger injectors ( 550cc x 2 720cc x 2 )

patman

iTrader: (3)

personally i think it makes sense to just advertise a complete kit. if people want the various parts, they can always contact you and get them seperately, since you will have to have a stock of them anyway. i agree with everything kevin said. you really should be designing this so joe blow moron can spend an afternoon and bolt it on to his NA.

pat

torean

yup....second the guy above me(patman).....i do have a question tho..where do u plan to find stock turbos?.....i mean....u can buy them new for like 500+ and much cheaper if they're used....but most s4 turbos have problems with cracking...would u want to sell something like that and have someone call back with complains?......

btw.....im not liking this already.....now theres gonna be even bigger demand for used turbos if im back on the market for one!

RotaryResurrection

iTrader: (8)

I think I'd leave that "PASS EMISSIONS" requirement out...sell it for offroad use only, not legal for any car to be driven upon a public highway. Can you say liability? The big companies don't use that disclaimer for no reason, you know...

FWIW, it should be possible to space the turbo farther forward a couple of inches, still keeping it low, and maintain the airpump and acv, with the SMALLER kit A and B...kit C should obviously carry the "you're on your own with emissions/inspection" waiver.

staticguitar313

iTrader: (2)

^ he said he wasn't offering turbos, just the rest of the parts, basically so he's not responsible for faulty used parts . . .

TitosToy

the idea of a complete kit is great and i'm glad there's someone willing to put it out for all of us and with tried and true results makes it worth while. but i see a few things you have to consider and by looking at all the options, its hard to decide. and dont forget what way of direction the installer wants to go. the first thing that comes to [my] mind are the manifolds. you have 3 options: 1) using the n/a, 2) using the tII, and 3) custom made. #1 is probably the cheapest way since everything's there but will require a lil more work (space issues, more fabbing, etc.); option #2 imo is in the middle because it basically can fit easily and the person can use the fsm to install the vac and fuel lines, etc. cons of this is either you have to find a source to get the manifolds, drill and port the 5th and 6th ports, and get fuel rails unless they can use the exsiting ones , and option 3 is the best way because you've designed it to fit the way it should. problem is it's more expensive cuz of the labor behind it.

then you have the plumbing stuff like oil/coolant lines. that's gonna make them drill and tap into oil pans, front cover, and most likely, the housing. unless they're planning to use the tII front cover and rear turbo housing(no fun in that) that's gonna sway the inexperience away. even with proper instructions, it will make them second guess.

then there's the hardest part - the turbo - you're gonna have to get them somewhere and that's gonna cost money (especially used ones). if you got a provider..then go for it.

intercoolers, pipes, fpr's, bov's, are the simple things you can get and that should be standard on all the kits. i'd give the options of injectors, fuel rails, and stuff.

and with all of these things the main issue is the cost. can you effectively do all these things while keeping cost down and make a profit at the same time? that's a challenge all in its own

so my point is if you can taylor these needs to the customer, you have a good shot at it. i know i haven't touch base on everything but in a noobs perspective (like me), this is what he/she will be looking for - something to start with. i'm halfway there myself but i'm interested in what you can come up with. keep us posted. i'll try to come up with ideas as soon as i can actually sit down and think better (at work now).

Tito

Tessai

To answer your question, Sonic, yes I did leave out the manifolds, as I already have them. When I mentioned the oil/coolant lines, I was speaking about the list of individual parts. If I were to get a complete kit, then hopefully I wouldn't need to buy individual parts.

TitosToy: He mentioned earlier on that the intake manifolds would be custom made, and not a hackjob.

SonicRat: Perhaps, for liability reasons, you could source out a turbo vendor and purchase a custom-made exhaust manifold for our cars, and a similarly sized turbo? For example, I know our turbo would be a very large turbo for a civic, so possibily the big tuners for Hondas/Acuras would have a turbo like ours in stock? Just a suggestion, as then you would have all new parts and would not have to worry about the condition of a used part.

As for making the oil return without drilling (as I'd hate to drill something, would be afraid of messing it up... could get some more mechanically inclined buddies to help me, but thats not the same for everyone) would it be possible to have the turbo drain to a small resiviour (sp?) that would then drain to, perhaps, the oil line either before or after the oil cooler via a T fitting between the cooler and the line? Or, perhaps more feasibly, a new oil pan with a pre-threaded hole built in? That'd be awesome.

SonicRaT

iTrader: (6)

The oil feed will come from the oil filter, no drilling required. The only thing that 'might' require drilling is if I decide to have the people drill/tap the front cover, but I could always do like Kevin suggested and supply modified oil pans, which is not too difficult. My only concern with this is backpressure on the return line.

I was quite amazed that somebody realized my concerns and problems with trying to sell stock turbos, and that's how difficult it'll be to get a GOOD part, rebuild it, then resell it.

Once again I thank everyone for their input, it's giving me great insight into what people will be looking for and expecting.