ignition timing advance, stock, na
03-20-03, 09:15 AM
#1
ignition timing advance, stock, na
i read the last bickerment with the afc that turned into a "your momma is so fat....." thread. and it didn't tell me ****. things i know. advancing increases power up to a point in mid and high range. overadvancing can cause detonation and sometimes will require a higher octane fuel. i know that there are said differences between people on timing settings at that 25* is considered the highest safe setting at least by paul yaw who suggests a higher leading (23* i think) and a teens trailing advance (dizzy systems w/o vacuum advance or locked cas). however i've heard racing beat keeps a tighter setting of ~5*btdc and an atdc trailing. i am not sure if the rb setting is still full vacuum or electrical advance systems to compensate for the advancing. i know stock is 5* atdc and 20* atdc.
things i don't know. how the electronic spark advance (esa) works. how far it can advance ignition.
be it that turning the cas might be crude, it can't beat free horspower and response to those of us w/o the money for the neato electronic gadgets. so who has advanced there cas and for how long? how far (degrees)? any dyno runs? butt dyno thoughts? has it been safe? what octane do you run with it?
if you respond to this thread, then give something solid and not really flimsy ****. answer all the questions you can, as it will be useless to say you did it and nothing more. no flaming guys. everyone is entitled to their opinion and it will be my judgement to fish through the data.
things i don't know. how the electronic spark advance (esa) works. how far it can advance ignition.
be it that turning the cas might be crude, it can't beat free horspower and response to those of us w/o the money for the neato electronic gadgets. so who has advanced there cas and for how long? how far (degrees)? any dyno runs? butt dyno thoughts? has it been safe? what octane do you run with it?
if you respond to this thread, then give something solid and not really flimsy ****. answer all the questions you can, as it will be useless to say you did it and nothing more. no flaming guys. everyone is entitled to their opinion and it will be my judgement to fish through the data.
03-20-03, 01:15 PM
#2
this is too funny. "oh **** a tech question". so no one advanced their ignition? hm.
ok, i have a 30 foot aluminum carbon fiberglass titanium wing spoiler. i want to mount some civic altezzas on the ends. whats the hp gain? do i need some stickers?
ok, i have a 30 foot aluminum carbon fiberglass titanium wing spoiler. i want to mount some civic altezzas on the ends. whats the hp gain? do i need some stickers?
03-20-03, 02:26 PM
#3
I run a standalone, so I'll try to give you an indication of how my ignition map goes:
My idle timing is 5 BTDC. Under vacuum, my timing increases linearly from that to my maximum advance of 34 degrees BTDC.
As soon as the map hits the boost range, timing drops quite quickly. I can tell you that at my max boost, my advance is 12 BTDC. There are people that run higher, but this depends a lot on the competency of you tuner and how much risk you want to take and your fuel octane.
From what I've read, the most critical area is at peak torque on your curve. That is where you want to retard the most. After peak torque, you can bring up the advance a bit. My peak torque is at 4700 rpm, where I'm running 7 BTDC...I think...can't quite remember.
Here is an interesting tidbit:
Split timing depends a lot on who you ask. I used to run 11 split on the Wolf3d (it only allows one uniform split). I gained quite a few peak HP after I increased the split to the stock 15 degrees. Go figure!
A lot of Haltech guys run up to 0 split under vacuum...
-I run 93 Octane.
-There are guys that advance more than me under boost with 91 so I guess I could go higher. But up high the gains are not that noticeable for a few degrees of advance.
*Edit: Just noticed you have a stock N/A. Don't know how much you can gain just by cranking the CAS, but I would think you can advance the timing quite a bit since you never hit boost...
*
My idle timing is 5 BTDC. Under vacuum, my timing increases linearly from that to my maximum advance of 34 degrees BTDC.
As soon as the map hits the boost range, timing drops quite quickly. I can tell you that at my max boost, my advance is 12 BTDC. There are people that run higher, but this depends a lot on the competency of you tuner and how much risk you want to take and your fuel octane.
From what I've read, the most critical area is at peak torque on your curve. That is where you want to retard the most. After peak torque, you can bring up the advance a bit. My peak torque is at 4700 rpm, where I'm running 7 BTDC...I think...can't quite remember.
Here is an interesting tidbit:
just setup the advance curves to taper from 0-14 psi to go from 33-34 down to 14 and then flat up to the rpm where peak torque occurs. then, do a few pulls on the dyno. then add a degree after peak torque all the way to 7500 and do a few more pulls. you will see more power.
A lot of Haltech guys run up to 0 split under vacuum...
-I run 93 Octane.
-There are guys that advance more than me under boost with 91 so I guess I could go higher. But up high the gains are not that noticeable for a few degrees of advance.
*Edit: Just noticed you have a stock N/A. Don't know how much you can gain just by cranking the CAS, but I would think you can advance the timing quite a bit since you never hit boost...
*
Last edited by eViLRotor; 03-20-03 at 02:37 PM.
03-20-03, 07:38 PM
#5
I had mine advanced aprox 5* I kinda winged it on the exact.
You know how the Europeans set their timing right? They go out with their tools to a road they can test on. They advance it a bit, then drive the car to top speed, listening for knock. They bump it a bit more and repeat everything untill they hear a ping or knock. Then they retard it a bit until the knock goes away. Thus yeilding the best power.
I liked it. The first car was my 88 n/a wich is now blown but that isn't the reason. I blew it racing her when she was too cold. oops
Anyway, I did notice better response. I only ran 89-90 octane. This had the best fuel economy as well. The day before the motor locked she was getting 25.6 MPG, 8 MPG better than when I got her and running stock.
I was/am running an MSD box too, however.
My 86 n/a didn't see much from the mod though. But she has other problems though that I am trying to run down. so I set her back to stock
You know how the Europeans set their timing right? They go out with their tools to a road they can test on. They advance it a bit, then drive the car to top speed, listening for knock. They bump it a bit more and repeat everything untill they hear a ping or knock. Then they retard it a bit until the knock goes away. Thus yeilding the best power.
I liked it. The first car was my 88 n/a wich is now blown but that isn't the reason. I blew it racing her when she was too cold. oops
Anyway, I did notice better response. I only ran 89-90 octane. This had the best fuel economy as well. The day before the motor locked she was getting 25.6 MPG, 8 MPG better than when I got her and running stock.
I was/am running an MSD box too, however.
My 86 n/a didn't see much from the mod though. But she has other problems though that I am trying to run down. so I set her back to stock
03-21-03, 07:27 AM
#6
Opinions are like........
Do a search
About 20 degrees advanced(~15btdc) now
Also ran CAS cranked all the way but was too chicken to leave it that way.
Mandatory super unleaded and cooling system must be perfect
Makes slow 'Vert feel faster
Improves MPG
Starts instantly
Torque(yep, rotary feels torquey)
Cleaner spark plugs
Cleaner oil
No dyno runs to prove anything
More than made up for lost grunt when 6 port actuators stuck open
Also ran CAS cranked all the way but was too chicken to leave it that way.
Mandatory super unleaded and cooling system must be perfect
Makes slow 'Vert feel faster
Improves MPG
Starts instantly
Torque(yep, rotary feels torquey)
Cleaner spark plugs
Cleaner oil
No dyno runs to prove anything
More than made up for lost grunt when 6 port actuators stuck open
03-21-03, 08:51 AM
#7
My n/a 90 made peak power at 22.5* advance on the dyno. This was with a mildy ported motor. Since running the 50 shot of nitrous, i've backed it down to 17.5*, and can't realy notice much of a loss. I was running a 75 shot, but I was having some problems with the fuel not atomizing. I was having to use B11EGV spark plugs (very cold tempature range!), and 92 octane, with the 5* timing pulled out of it to not get it to detonate. With the 11's, they would start fouling after awhile, so I decided to use a 50 shot for the street. Boy, did I go off subject! Sorry about that. CJ
Trending Topics
03-21-03, 09:04 AM
#8
Originally posted by pp13bnos
My n/a 90 made peak power at 22.5* advance on the dyno. This was with a mildy ported motor. Since running the 50 shot of nitrous, i've backed it down to 17.5*, and can't realy notice much of a loss. I was running a 75 shot, but I was having some problems with the fuel not atomizing. I was having to use B11EGV spark plugs (very cold tempature range!), and 92 octane, with the 5* timing pulled out of it to not get it to detonate. With the 11's, they would start fouling after awhile, so I decided to use a 50 shot for the street. Boy, did I go off subject! Sorry about that. CJ
My n/a 90 made peak power at 22.5* advance on the dyno. This was with a mildy ported motor. Since running the 50 shot of nitrous, i've backed it down to 17.5*, and can't realy notice much of a loss. I was running a 75 shot, but I was having some problems with the fuel not atomizing. I was having to use B11EGV spark plugs (very cold tempature range!), and 92 octane, with the 5* timing pulled out of it to not get it to detonate. With the 11's, they would start fouling after awhile, so I decided to use a 50 shot for the street. Boy, did I go off subject! Sorry about that. CJ
03-21-03, 03:54 PM
#11
Rotary Enthusiast
plus, that spoiler you speak of is wayyyyy to small. Go steal a wing off of a 747 and mod it to fit your car. Those are some major gains. Gotta watch out for roadside trees though.
04-20-03, 11:40 AM
#13
Now come on guys.....I can't give up all my secrets. I'll just say that Rob@Pineapple likes the leading set see about 20* total advance, and 10* for the trailing, on ported engines.
Anouther way to do it, is just keep bumping the timing up until you start to feel the power levels drop off. Don't do this unless you feel you have a sensitive butt dyno! This is'nt the best way to setup the ignition setup, but it'll work.
Hope this helps, CJ
Anouther way to do it, is just keep bumping the timing up until you start to feel the power levels drop off. Don't do this unless you feel you have a sensitive butt dyno! This is'nt the best way to setup the ignition setup, but it'll work.
Hope this helps, CJ
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