I think I popped it.
03-04-14, 05:52 PM
#51
they're scored because that's usually what 3mm soft metallic apex seals do. it's also why i only really recommend them for drag racing/high horsepower applications. it has nothing to do with any of the wear surfaces inside the engine, and only a little to do with internal lubrication, which is why i also recommend 2oz+ premix for 3mm non cast iron seal engines.
the warpage limit on the irons in the FSM is also strict, so a little leighway over the limit is fine.
that said you might want to consider having those housings resurfaced or replaced and run a bit heavier on your oil to fuel ratio. by a bit i mean a lot!
the warpage limit on the irons in the FSM is also strict, so a little leighway over the limit is fine.
that said you might want to consider having those housings resurfaced or replaced and run a bit heavier on your oil to fuel ratio. by a bit i mean a lot!
03-04-14, 06:38 PM
#52
2oz/gal is doable. A full tank would mean a quart of premix. I can do that once its put back together. Premixing in quantity like that, can I just block off the OMP and run solely premix? I'm glad to know that the measurements on the irons are strict. Glad I have a little room to breathe but that means the rebuild must go smooth as silk.
That being said, I'm trying to find a good price on housing services, because regardless, I'll have to ship them. I got a couple opinions on it, showed some pictures, etc and got pretty good response from the guys at Goopy and Cam down at Pettit. Who can deliver the best bang for the buck? Ben, I hear good things about your work too, and your input is much appreciated. I'm looking at $300+ for just the service anyway I reckon, but I want to be as close to certain as possible.
Also. I want to reuse these seals. I don't have much choice. The budget simply doesn't allow. Is there a way to similarly return the apex seals to usable shape? I know mine don't look or feel messed up, but they still can be at around 50x magnification. Is there some work to be done on them? Can I toss 'em in and they'll seat themselves as they break in on the new housing surface or do I see a couple hours ahead of me with emery paper on glass? I can definitely show you guys the seals.
Ben, think you can quote me on a priced shipped? 32346
That being said, I'm trying to find a good price on housing services, because regardless, I'll have to ship them. I got a couple opinions on it, showed some pictures, etc and got pretty good response from the guys at Goopy and Cam down at Pettit. Who can deliver the best bang for the buck? Ben, I hear good things about your work too, and your input is much appreciated. I'm looking at $300+ for just the service anyway I reckon, but I want to be as close to certain as possible.
Also. I want to reuse these seals. I don't have much choice. The budget simply doesn't allow. Is there a way to similarly return the apex seals to usable shape? I know mine don't look or feel messed up, but they still can be at around 50x magnification. Is there some work to be done on them? Can I toss 'em in and they'll seat themselves as they break in on the new housing surface or do I see a couple hours ahead of me with emery paper on glass? I can definitely show you guys the seals.
Ben, think you can quote me on a priced shipped? 32346
03-04-14, 07:43 PM
#53
run your finger along the seal, if it feels gritty then you should clean up the surface. emery cloth is also a little overkill. a perfectly flat surface and 120->400 grit is usually enough to clean up the surface to break it in again with.
resurfacing is $250 for a pair of housings and shipping is about $25-30 each way, so if you can find a set of good used housings it might save you a few bucks.
resurfacing is $250 for a pair of housings and shipping is about $25-30 each way, so if you can find a set of good used housings it might save you a few bucks.
03-05-14, 11:29 AM
#56
i can do a pair of housings whenever, just make sure major debris/grease is removed from them first.
unfortunately i don't have a CNC map programmed for the coolant passage modification, doing it by hand is overly labor intensive as the last pair i did took nearly 16 hours of labor to do, which isn't realistically something i could charge for and make a profit on still. racing beat does the modification and has the CNC maps, but i can't recall how much they charge and it still didn't seem beneficial for the cost as it is one of the last and least beneficial cooling system mods one could do. it won't prevent plug galley cracks, it marginally lowers the temperature in the combustion walls in the engine to reduce detonation risk slightly and allowance to run a hotter plug longer through a power level before needing to run colder plugs. all those things are really only beneficial on a track dedicated car.
unfortunately i don't have a CNC map programmed for the coolant passage modification, doing it by hand is overly labor intensive as the last pair i did took nearly 16 hours of labor to do, which isn't realistically something i could charge for and make a profit on still. racing beat does the modification and has the CNC maps, but i can't recall how much they charge and it still didn't seem beneficial for the cost as it is one of the last and least beneficial cooling system mods one could do. it won't prevent plug galley cracks, it marginally lowers the temperature in the combustion walls in the engine to reduce detonation risk slightly and allowance to run a hotter plug longer through a power level before needing to run colder plugs. all those things are really only beneficial on a track dedicated car.
Last edited by RotaryEvolution; 03-05-14 at 11:32 AM.
03-05-14, 04:25 PM
#57
I understand. I assumed it was more of a track-spec mod, so I thought I'd ask.
I have a box sized and I'm going to send them tomorrow morning. Do you need to collect payment first or do you want to wait to see them in person to see if you can do them?
Are the address and phone number on your website still accurate?
I have a box sized and I'm going to send them tomorrow morning. Do you need to collect payment first or do you want to wait to see them in person to see if you can do them?
Are the address and phone number on your website still accurate?
03-05-14, 05:30 PM
#60
Also, looking at these housings, the exhaust porting is a little bit wonky. Would you charge me extra to smooth everything out? I don't mind if you have to extend the port a little to make everything match. While I did build the engine, I didn't do any of the porting. I don't want to try this myself on usable parts just yet.
03-05-14, 07:40 PM
#63
Awesome. Big thanks. It's got a nice arc to both, just one of the lines is a little choppy. Shipping is EXPENSIVE though. Damn $60 for a box [that I had to cut up] and just 30lbs! And that's ground. Ape ****.
I think I left the hardware for the exh mani on the studs, so I'll need those back too. The lady rushed me as it was close to closing time.
Anyway, down to business. Now it's time to get gaskets and all. Ben, I'll be doing some searching but input would be appreciated on your HP coolant seal sets and the savers. Do you have them in stock? Got pictures?
Now it gets interesting. I run single apex seal springs with my 3mm RA Super Seals. Are the dual-spring setups useless for me if I want a kit that comes with side and corner seal springs? I've also got a S5 front cover and front cover internals, but S4 irons paired with my FD rotors and housings. What kind of mixing and matching am I going to have to do with my gasket kit, if any? My S5 stationary gears didn't have any o-rings on them when I took it apart. Do I need these?
I think I left the hardware for the exh mani on the studs, so I'll need those back too. The lady rushed me as it was close to closing time.
Anyway, down to business. Now it's time to get gaskets and all. Ben, I'll be doing some searching but input would be appreciated on your HP coolant seal sets and the savers. Do you have them in stock? Got pictures?
Now it gets interesting. I run single apex seal springs with my 3mm RA Super Seals. Are the dual-spring setups useless for me if I want a kit that comes with side and corner seal springs? I've also got a S5 front cover and front cover internals, but S4 irons paired with my FD rotors and housings. What kind of mixing and matching am I going to have to do with my gasket kit, if any? My S5 stationary gears didn't have any o-rings on them when I took it apart. Do I need these?
03-06-14, 12:30 PM
#64
i'll see if i can cut the return shipping down, it wasn't nearly that expensive last time i shipped a pair of housings but even 1" on box dimensions can kill you in cost.
single springs work best with the 3mm seals so just stick with that. the FC front cover gaskets are all the same, coolant seals, oil seals and rotor springs also(FD corners and side springs being better though). if you are replacing any hardware on the rotors the only things that have to match are the corner seals to the 3mm apex seals. the rear stat gear o-ring isn't super important if you use sealant on the flange.
in most cases i actually just use silicone for the front cover also(with a small o-ring to the front cover to offset the reduced clearance), since this helps eliminate the o-ring bypass failure mode and the paper gasket splitting issues i have seen. it just requires some care if you have a functional OMP to prevent the small port from being clogged up with sealant.
in fact i mainly just use an o-ring kit i put together for all the internals of the engine(400F silicone inner coolant seals, 400F+ vitons for everything else. i found that viton inner coolant seals do "breathe" and will allow some exhaust into the cooling system for the break in period which is why i switched to a factory type of silicone inner. the issue was very minor but it bothered me) , most everything outside of that is sealed with RTV and the main seals replaced. if most of your rotor hardware is low mileage then it should still be in good condition to reuse once cleaned. the apex seal/rotor housing conditions and side seal gaps are 99% of what sets your final compression numbers.
half of a service overhaul kit is what i would consider aesthetics, or slightly more user friendly. most of the parts have a service life of well over 300k miles if the engine is serviced regularly. apex seals and housings get the most attention(seals replaced and semi worn housings re-cut) followed by the rotating bearings and all clearances measured and adjusted(replaced).
single springs work best with the 3mm seals so just stick with that. the FC front cover gaskets are all the same, coolant seals, oil seals and rotor springs also(FD corners and side springs being better though). if you are replacing any hardware on the rotors the only things that have to match are the corner seals to the 3mm apex seals. the rear stat gear o-ring isn't super important if you use sealant on the flange.
in most cases i actually just use silicone for the front cover also(with a small o-ring to the front cover to offset the reduced clearance), since this helps eliminate the o-ring bypass failure mode and the paper gasket splitting issues i have seen. it just requires some care if you have a functional OMP to prevent the small port from being clogged up with sealant.
in fact i mainly just use an o-ring kit i put together for all the internals of the engine(400F silicone inner coolant seals, 400F+ vitons for everything else. i found that viton inner coolant seals do "breathe" and will allow some exhaust into the cooling system for the break in period which is why i switched to a factory type of silicone inner. the issue was very minor but it bothered me) , most everything outside of that is sealed with RTV and the main seals replaced. if most of your rotor hardware is low mileage then it should still be in good condition to reuse once cleaned. the apex seal/rotor housing conditions and side seal gaps are 99% of what sets your final compression numbers.
half of a service overhaul kit is what i would consider aesthetics, or slightly more user friendly. most of the parts have a service life of well over 300k miles if the engine is serviced regularly. apex seals and housings get the most attention(seals replaced and semi worn housings re-cut) followed by the rotating bearings and all clearances measured and adjusted(replaced).
Last edited by RotaryEvolution; 03-06-14 at 12:52 PM.
03-07-14, 10:27 AM
#65
Thanks Ben. I'm a bit more confident that I can spend a little less money. I really want to retain as much cooling power as I can. What do you include in your coolant seal kits? The OEM seals that came out of my engine weren't broken, but were brittle and cracked almost all the way around like an old serpentine belt after just 14000 miles. Will I have to buy an o-ring kit for everything else though?
I don't believe I will need side or corner seal springs either so I can rule those out of my kit also. I do definitely want to replace my oil control o-rings with viton [I used an OEM style kit last time], as well as take care of all the obvious things like dowel pin o-rings, etc. I do already have both my UIM gaskets, So I'll just need a lower. I would rather just use a front cover gasket, but in order to use just silicone, what size o-ring do I need to put underneath the front cover to compensate? I'm also going to take your advice on premixing, so I want to look into the RA OMP adapter if not just premix, because I doubt the factory system can keep up with 2oz/gal. Hahah
Now is also the time to address main/stat gear bearings and rotor bearings. I have only measured the stationary bearings and lands so far. My front stat gear has a bit of copper showing, but isn't worn any farther than last time at 0.15mm clearance to the e-shaft. Should I replace them anyway? The rear specced at 0.04mm clearance. I will be unwrapping and clearancing the rotors soon, and I can tell you guys for sure there is no copper showing on either.
I don't believe I will need side or corner seal springs either so I can rule those out of my kit also. I do definitely want to replace my oil control o-rings with viton [I used an OEM style kit last time], as well as take care of all the obvious things like dowel pin o-rings, etc. I do already have both my UIM gaskets, So I'll just need a lower. I would rather just use a front cover gasket, but in order to use just silicone, what size o-ring do I need to put underneath the front cover to compensate? I'm also going to take your advice on premixing, so I want to look into the RA OMP adapter if not just premix, because I doubt the factory system can keep up with 2oz/gal. Hahah
Now is also the time to address main/stat gear bearings and rotor bearings. I have only measured the stationary bearings and lands so far. My front stat gear has a bit of copper showing, but isn't worn any farther than last time at 0.15mm clearance to the e-shaft. Should I replace them anyway? The rear specced at 0.04mm clearance. I will be unwrapping and clearancing the rotors soon, and I can tell you guys for sure there is no copper showing on either.
03-12-14, 12:56 PM
#67
the coolant and dowel seals should always be replaced unless they are the durable/reusable type. the oil seals should also be replaced if the cases are removed from the rotors, unless they are lower mile viton oil seals and still have decent pressure to push them back into the rotors. crank seals can be cleaned and left alone if they showed no signs of previous leaking and were replaced not long ago.
fedex came and went, so i'm guessing either tomorrow or it's ups or usps.
fedex came and went, so i'm guessing either tomorrow or it's ups or usps.
03-12-14, 07:00 PM
#68
It will be on FedEx. They were supposed to have delivered today, according to tracking. I can send you the tracking number and I'll call FedEx out there tomorrow. I have also read that older, worn stat gear bearings are sometimes better than new, so I will keep mine for now but replace them next time.
Do you have a coolant/dowel/OCR set in your shop? I'd be ready to get a hold of those too so when I get the housings back, it's basically ready to reassemble.
Do you have a coolant/dowel/OCR set in your shop? I'd be ready to get a hold of those too so when I get the housings back, it's basically ready to reassemble.
03-12-14, 09:34 PM
#70
Thanks Ben. Let me know what you'll include in the seal kit too. You can take your time with the work. I have "7-10 business days" until my new debit card comes in the mail. My wallet was stolen a couple nights ago. Yaaaay standstill. I'll definitely going to keep you posted on that. My bank currently has my money bag in a vise, if you catch my drift. 
03-16-14, 09:55 PM
#71
sorry to hear, the housings should be finished tomorrow so i will just set them aside once done, the machining is already finished but i need to look at the porting to see the best way to clean it up. the trailing edge also was not beveled, whoever ported them needs more practice. also block sand the sealing surfaces lightly only, someone had used a die grinder with a 3m disc on it at some point, you may need to overtorque the engine slightly to compensate for possible variations(35-37ft/lbs).
Last edited by RotaryEvolution; 03-16-14 at 10:00 PM.
04-03-14, 03:45 PM
#74
Okay ladies and gents. It's been a while but I've finally got everything together and a few things should be in the mail tomorrow so I can begin assembly.
My rotor housings look absolutely phenomenal thanks to Ben/RotaryEvolution. Ben, I'll be posting pics soon so everyone can see the end result of your incredible housing refinishing.
I do have one question before I get everything together. If mostly everything is being reused, is it likely that I will need a different front cover spacer? They're not expensive but once I start the build, I don't like to stop until it's finished.
My rotor housings look absolutely phenomenal thanks to Ben/RotaryEvolution. Ben, I'll be posting pics soon so everyone can see the end result of your incredible housing refinishing.
I do have one question before I get everything together. If mostly everything is being reused, is it likely that I will need a different front cover spacer? They're not expensive but once I start the build, I don't like to stop until it's finished.
04-03-14, 08:24 PM
#75
Alright here's a pic of the housing surfaces after Ben's refinishing. I have plenty more pictures, and some of the GORGEOUS exhaust ports he did too if you guys want to also see those. Refer to post #42 [page 2] for before pictures.
