flubyux2

after hearing some avice from a veteran rx7 owner, i decided i would try this for myself. im constantly seeing all this back and forth talk of the pros and cons of leaving the 6 port induction working or wiring it open. most people think that operational 6PI with pineapple sleeves is the way to go. other people think their car is faster with 6PI wired open. everyone has reasons and explanations why their standpoint is right. but, after hearing adam/mazdaspeed7 shoot down the negative stigma about removing the 6PI system and claiming that there is more power felt everywhere, i decided id give it a try.

ive been sitting on an ACV blockoff plate for almost 6 months now. i found it in a junkyard and got the 5-finger discount. for the past several months, ive had a mysterious coolant leak. one day it blew up. the TB hose under the UIM from the rotor housing let go... i had an excuse to tear off the manifolds. while the manifolds were off, i figured id port them bitches out... and i did. also, while they were off, id remove the ACV and block it off. additionally, while the LIM was off, id remove the 6PI system and pull the sleeves... and so i did.

of course, i removed the ACV, 2 bolts and 1 nut. installed my plate w/ FIPG. then, i removed the 6PI diaphragms. Next, i removed the actuator rod retainer plates... with the gay phillips head screws that like to strip. i got them off w/ minimal strippage. once these were undone, i could pull the actuator rods out of the orifice. i removed the dust covers and small grommets that cover the hole. i looked inside the intake ports and saw a sleeve sticking out. it looked as if the actuator rods resided in a bronze guide, like valve stem guides on piston engines. knowing what i do about those, i knew they were pressed in. i found a properly fitting bolt and knocked the bronze guides out of their bores from the outside. they popped free w/ minimal coersion. now, i had a big gaping hole leading into the ports. i read something about a "Dime" blockoff plate. i thought they meant it could be made for dirt cheap, like cutting a soda can into layers of aluminum or something... but i dropped an actual 10 cent coin into both holes. it rested right on the recessed lip. i sealed up the dimes w/ FIPG against the lip and around the edges. then i reinstalled the actuator rod retainer plate w/ the gay phillips screws again. the only downside was that there were still a big bumps in the ports that would hinder flow; the actuator rod guide Bosses. the actuator rod guide bosses had to go. i cut the bosses flush w/ the walls of the port for the smoothest and most uninterrupted airflow as possible. i smoothed out the short side radius of the secondary and 6 port openings as well as the long side radius. i cut back the secondary and aux port dividers and thinned them out. i also opened up the primary ports and thinned out the center divider till it matched the gasket. then the rest of the LIM was gasket matched, as well as where the UIM mated to the LIM.

Moreover, on the UIM, the ports were gasket matched 2 inches into the runners. i popped out the secondary injector air bleed sockets and knew that the injector bosses impeded airflow significantly. i did NOT cut them down flush with the runner walls... however, i massaged and opened up the runner on both sides of the bosses. i also thinned out the front/leading side of the bosses that were in direct conflict with the airflow. i smoothed out and contoured the bosses as best as i could. with the bosses smoothed out, and injector air bleed bores unchanged, it all fit together like stock. instead of hitting the air bleed and the boss and creating turbulence, the air could smoothly and quickly split and flow around the injector bosses.

in additon to the removal of the ACV and 6PI as well as the porting, i also did the full TB mod and emissions removal. the VDI is intact but i havent created a provision to supply pressurized air to it yet. so naturally, the car isnt pulling past 5000rpm as hard as it SHOULD. its in the closed position.

going from BONE stock S5 untouched, the feel of the car is improved by a great margin. before, with a non-operational 6pi system and operational VDI, the car simply was *****-slow after 5000rpm. it would pull to 5000ish and then take FOREVER to get to 8000rpm. now, it climbs to 5000 even FASTER with greater midrange power. it pulls past 5000 rpm quicker than it did before, DESPITE the VDI rendered inoperable. once i hook up the VDI, i expect 5000-8000rpm to rap as quickly as 2500-5000. there is plenty more power EVERYwhere, except from idle to 2000rpm; it feels EXACTLY like it did before. no, there is No real perceivable loss in torque from idle to 2500. NO you do not have to slip the clutch from a stop due to a "massive loss of torque". from a stop, i blip the throttle to 1500 and get the car rolling. I let off the throttle and the clutch then the RPMS fall to 1200 to meet the road speed of the car. rather than having to HOLD 1500 rpms, and slip the clutch untill the road speed meets 1500rpm, i can simply drop the rpms as the clutch comes out and the road speed meets the RPMs on the downfall. its definitly alot EASIER on the clutch as the time spent between engaged and disengaged is literally cut in half. slipping the clutch is significantly minimized.

with all the negative comments about torque loss associated w/ 6PI wired open or 6PI removal, i was scared that taking off from a stop in 1st gear would be equivalent to taking off from a stop in 2nd gear; excessive throttle, excessive clutch slipping and excessive clutch wear. this is NOT the case! with my driving habits the same as before, the clutch operation is unchanged.

ill definitly report back after i get my VDI working off the smog pump output and tell you how the car feels from 5000rpm and up. but right now, i can tell you there is a NOTICABLE gain in midrange with NO perceivable sacrifice in low end.

if you have the means, i HIGHLY suggest you drive a car with the 6PI fully removed.

now, i know there are going to be many of you that want to raise the BS flag on me... that, if this was soo good, why would mazda engineers have spent countless hours researching the intake volume and velocity and flow path and operation of the auxillary port system if all they had to do was make big ports and runners and leave them open like i did? why would they have spent so much money and effort in designing a highly complicated induction system like the 6PI if i could simply improve on it by REMOVING their well-engineered pieces?

quite simply, the only way this was possible was by spending 6 hours porting the LIM and 2 hours porting the UIM. there is no way mazda would have allowed that much time and detail go into each engine build.

i know for a FACT that due to the increase volume of the LIM and aux. ports that intake air charge velocity on all 4 runners has decreased. this would logically mean that the vehicle would lose a significant amount of low end power while gaining more in the top end. technically, this is true. you cant gain volume and retain velocity, and vice versa. most of the time, you sacrifice one for the other. in this case, i sacrificed velocity for volume. considering that the rotary isnt a torque monster and does better in midrange and top end, i would alter the intake and exhaust design to compliment the rotary's inherent attributes. in short, the 6PI system is for the average american who wants to stab the gas and feel the car lurch, and take off from the stop light... maybe a bit of noise from the tires would make this person feel good too. to be honest, i cannot do that with this car... i couldnt before though. so, i perceived no loss in torque under 2500rpm. if i let the clutch out and had the car rolling at 1500 rpm and stabbed the gas, it would slowly climb to 2500. there would be no instant lurch and no chirp from the tires. but, the fact it doesnt do this, does not displease me. i accept the fact that the rotary doesnt make bottom end torque. i know its not a piston engine. i am rewarded w/ mid and top end torque for my tolerance for the lack of bottom end torque.

with that said, i recommend you at least find someone with a similar setup and at least compare and contrast to a working system. i personally feel that any perceivable loss in bottom end is worth the rewarding mid and top end power. who honestly races their RX7 and shifts at 3000rpm? no one. if i wanted a car i could granny shift and beat someones *** with, i would have a V8. nothing screams like a rotary though.

sorry, i have no pics for you. i figured you guys have seen enough manifold porting threads and heard enough 6PI threads and know what this **** looks like.

thanks
chris "enjoying rotary induction noise"

RETed

No wonder you're having so much trouble with your car.
Karma is a bitch...ain't it?


-Ted

flubyux2

lol... trouble? quite honestly, this is THE single most reliable car that i have had in the past 2 years. the coolant line is the first bit of trouble ive had w/ the car since i took care of the alternator when i first bought it over 2 years ago... for $850 cash. this car has been quite good to me, so im showing it some TLC. besides, ive given that junkyard so much of my money, between my S4 seatbelt conversion, supra parts, mitsubishi parts and whatnot... this was my kickback.

thanks
chris

pengarufoo

been there, done that, and yeah it helped significantly:
http://pengaru.com/~swivel/cars/rx-7/pics/02-19-2005/

did you fill in the pockets left from removing the actuator bushings & rods? or just seal them? I drove with just pockets with the outer wall welded shut for a while, and I had to change the tune in mid/top end after filling them in - wanted a bit more fuel.

the 6pi implementation sucks, rx8 has a much better arrangement.

SonicRaT

iTrader: (6)

So, let me get this straight. Your 6ports weren't working before, and you wondered why it sucked, compared to now, including that you've ported your manifolds and so forth? As for the 'detail', mazda could've easily just made the things larger, which is in somewhat an effect of what you did. The only difference would be the smoothing.

End3r

I'd like to see back to back dyno runs to make a valid comparison. The butt dyno is known to be unreliable.

Icemark

Yep... I agree... this is a bullshit post without before and after real dyno tests (or even 0-100 times - some sort of real compairson) and toss in that he had non operational aux ports before hand

Any gains he got were simply from his cleaning up of the manifolds... not aux port removal.

Makes you wonder how much stronger the car would be with proper functioning aux ports and his other mods

Snrub

iTrader: (1)

Somehow I doubt he gained more than a few HP through his porting. I imagine the non-functioning aux port removal and non-functioning VDI has it producing less than stock across the rev range.

As for not being able to light up the tires, does that mean a launch with optimal revs? EVERY car can light up the tires at a launch.

lastphaseofthis

iTrader: (8)

whats exaust do you have on this seven? i have complete streight pipes on mine and removed my half functioning aux ports,(5th worked 6th did not) on my s4, and if u look in the dyno time slip section i made large improments, in anycase if you exaust is stock u wasted your time,
fix your VDI then gets us some run times!

Aaron Cake

iTrader: (1)

Comparing non-working ports with ports that have been removed? No contest, no wonder there was a gain. Now compare a properly working system and then one that has had the sleeves removed. No gain uptop, losses down low. This has all been dyno proven for years. In fact, if sufficiently motivated, I have access to a bone stock 86 NA and have spare dyno time booked next week...I could easily make a run with working ports and then wire them open and show absolutely no gain, but a huge hit in low end...

Madrx7racer

^do it.......I want to see.

lastphaseofthis

iTrader: (8)

you are completely right with wiring them open costing you down low and no gains..
but removeing them complete is a hole nother story, i would be willing to chip in on your dyno expences as long as u do a run with no cats, i will put money down that u will have gains when removed.
but remember he has a s5, and me and you are talking about s4's so maybe a big diffrence...

Sideways7

iTrader: (7)

How can you say the removing the aux ports it better than properly working ones? Yours were never working in the first place. Of course the car feels much quicker - the aux ports were always closed, now they are open. There is a large difference in power.
I have personally witnessed the difference. When I got my car, the aux ports were wired open and it was fairly sluggish on the low end. Nothing too horrible, but not fast at all. When I got the RB exhaust (which enabled the aux ports to work again) I put them back on and the difference was huge. I now had a car that was actually quick all across the board, not just above 4k.

Icemark

The other thing you have to remember is that aux port sleeves don't effect the intake at all... the timing and port size stays exactly the same regardless of if the sleeves are in the engine or not... and with the sleeves removed you now have a turblance issue, as the end of the sleeve housing in the block no longer ends near the port opening.

This pretty much rules out any possible gains from removing the sleeves.

flubyux2

when i pulled my sleeves out, they were in the open position. im willing to bet thats why my low end has no perceivable torque lose. i would have loved to do a baseline dyno run, but i didnt want to spend the $70 that the local shops want for 2 runs with Wideband. then another $70 to do another pair of runs w/ these mods.

no one seems to understand that the Aux ports flow very little. its Impossible for them to be efficient to any degree. due to the fact that the Aux port sleeves reduce the port size by 4-5mm, not to mention there is the roll pin that crosses the opening of the port sleeve. then, there is also the actuator rod that runs all the way thru the LIM aux port. also, dont forget about the bronze rod guide and the guide boss. all of that **** reduces the cross sectionaly diameter of the aux port and its ability to flow any usable amount of air.

and my understanding of fluid and aerodynamics shows that the aux ports are not as useful as they should be. the secondary ports are on the long side of the runners prove to have a larger volume of air flowing thru them. the natural velocity and centrifugal motion of the air flowing thru the runner gives the air a tendancy to stick to the long side radius and use the secondary port openings more than the aux port. now combining the mazda-engineered port restrctions from the 6PI equipment with the inherent aerodynamics of the air flowing thru the runners and the secondary ports, it makes the aux ports questionable at best. the only thing i can see the aux ports doing is creating a larger negative pressure wave which can travel back up the intake runners which wll bounce back when they hit the plenum and create a positive pressure wave which will induce intertial supercharging to help push air through the runners.

i dont remember if i said that my Aux ports were stuck closed, if i did, i appologize. i misspoke. they were failed in the open postion. and my VDI was the only thing stll operational.

there is more power, because after i switched to the "massive" wheel/tire combo out back, i wasnt able to get the tires to spin or even bark when shifting. now, shifting to second, the car will bark the 255/40/17's on the SSR Integral A2 17x9's. i dont know many cars as weak as the NA FC that can bark tires that big. i have 3mm of clearance beteen my tire and trailing arm in the back.

i have the 90* elbow to connect my smog to the releif silencer and a nipple to plumb the pressure source for my VDI solenoid. ill get that hooked up and see how it turns out. next, id like to get some stainless u-bends to make my header and true duals. right now, its running on stock Thermal reactor, catless mid pipe and stock Y-pipe and mufflers. once i get the exhaust sorted out, ill get some dyno numbers for you guys... mmkay?

thanks
chris

ddub

I can't remember precisely, but I think someone on nopistons.com dyno'd a car with properly working actuators/sleeves and then removed the sleeves completely, including the rods from the actuators that go through the manifold runner, and ended up getting about 2rwhp off of it or something. Again can't remember entirely, but I remember reading about it.

Sideways7

iTrader: (7)

We arent denying that you have more power. We are just saying that the gains aren't from removing the sleaves, its from wiring open the aux ports.

YearsOfDecay

you can always count on one of us to pick out the little tidbit of info that the writer dropped without thinking.. and EXPLOIT IT for our own evil pruposes!!!!

You got me on that one ted!!!

flubyux2

yo dD, im not really concerned w/ peak hp gains as much as i am w/ power gains under the curve. id be thrilled if my peak HP/TQ stayed the same but i gained more area under the curve in the midrange, which im willing to bet is the case here.

wiring open stock 6PI w/ all the components in place will make no more power than an operational 6PI system, and even Less power in the bottom end. however, doing a full removal like mine and fully porting the LIM will plainly show gains over working 6PI. im not the only one feeling improvments over this setup.

thanks
chris

iceblue

We need shaky head imoticons.

88IntegraLS

My friend Astrochild7 has an identical street port as what's on my car and I think he has a header too. He removed his 6 port actuators / sleeves and hogged out the runners a little, I left mine in and ported the sleeve. We both drove each others cars and came to the conclusion that my car has more torque below 4k rpm. Both cars have ported intake manifolds / TB mod / ported throttle body, and his is even an S5 with the higher compression.

Glad it worked out for you, Kahren seems to like removing the 5/6 port actuators / sleeves too. I recently did it because my supercharger will take care of the low end torque, muahahaha.

flubyux2

are you sitting there, trying to tell me that im not feeling what im feeling? are you telling ME that my car cant possibly be any more powerful than it was before? youre TELLING me that i dont know what im feeling and that YOU know better than i do... youre SAYING to ME, that you KNOW for a fact that my car cant POSSIBLY be any better than it was before... because you know my car better than i do. because you people know my car better than i do and how the drivability is different.



im sorry to be crude and pardon my french, but **** your collective couches.

all im saying is that my car has a noticable difference in midrange than it did with 6PI in the stuck-open position. im simply telling you not to shrug off the option of removing the 6PI system due to the negative stigma given to the idea because of others who have no clue as to what they are talking about. untill these naysayers Perform this modification to their own car and have driven it, they have no valuable input. i could sit here and try to tell you that Cabinet building is wicked hard, or how someone should perform a auto-lobotomoy when the truth is, i dont know dick about either. As such, i have no basis for any claims or advice i give regarding any such things.

i simply took advantage of the rotary's inherent ability to make power in the top end. i capitolized on this trait and was willing to make a sacrifice by losing any bottom end torque. but, my bottom end torque has not changed significantly. i havent lost enough for me to take notice. its not any worse than it was before i did this work.

if someone can come to me and say "hey bro, i removed my 6PI system and pulled the sleeves and my car was a slow turd... i wouldnt recommend doing this to anyone...not even someone i hate" but the truth is, the only people who have replied negatively to this idea are those who have not yet done it and have no experience with a full-time 6 port NA with the sleeves and rods removed as well as the portwork i added. on the other side of the coin, the only people who have reported positivly about this modification are those who HAVE performed it already... do you see a trend?

Aaron Cake

iTrader: (1)

The issue is that it's been known for about 20 years that removing the sleeves is worse then having them in place, and disabling the whole system gains you nothing but a loss in low end.

Unless you can produce 2 dyno pulls where the only change was removal of the ports, then it's kind of a moot point anyway. Even then, one dyno pull can easily vary from the next by a few HP "just because".

I have no doubt that you felt an improvement, but it was likely do to all the other work you did at the time. And let's not forget that the placebo effect is huge. I too have been guilty of this as one of the first things I did after purchasing my car was to get the port actuators working properly. I could SWEAR a huge improvement. Found out 3 years after, when I disassembled my engine that my aux port sleeves were never there.

SonicRaT

iTrader: (6)

Lets not forget that his didn't even work before this...

Snrub

iTrader: (1)

As I said, any car can squeel the tires like that. It's more about the clutch. I have done it in a 55hp Dodge Colt while shifting at middle RPMs. This part isn't a big deal, but you have to understand that it doesn't add to your credibility.