SSRx7

Hmmmm.. News to me.

Later,
Bill

Black91n/a

http://grassrootsmotorsports.com/new...ake-pads-2.php

Read that, I'm pretty sure it doesn't mention off gassing of pads. It does happen a little bit, but not enough to impede brake funtion. The bigger concern is that when running drilled rotors is that they have a much greater likelyhood of cracking, which can have devastating concequences.

SSRx7

Thanks for the info, I'll look into it. I deal mostly with OEM brakes, not racing stuff, so I welcome any new (to me anyways) information.

Later,
Bill

noah419

whatever you decide to buy check out horepowerfreaks for you car. i have an LS1 swap as well and was looking into getting a front brake kit and they have some decent deals.

http://www.horsepowerfreaks.com/pric...ormance/Brakes

Icemark

why would you spend as much money as the car is worth, on a minor brake upgrade kit???

noah419

thats like asking why would i put a motor in a car that is worth more than the car.

answer:

because i wanted to. i know its not cost efficient, but that is something that i dont have to worry about. and if i did.....well my 7 would still be sitting in my garage with a blown motor.

Icemark

well several of the kits (like the Endless kit= RX7 Big Brake Kits 4 Piston Slotted Rotors Starting at $2,640.00) that list on that page, actually have smaller brake rotor than the stock 4 piston brake rotors...

can't see spending $2K or $3K on a brake down grade that is not even increasing the stopping area surface...

But then people put V8 motors in and are convinced the car handles almost as good.

ericgrau

iTrader: (1)

• Slotting or drilling rotors improves brake cooling, not stopping power. Though under heavy braking - usually only on a race track - brakes get hot and you lose stopping power ("brake fade"). Slotting and drilling both weaken the rotor no matter what (=> cracked rotors), but slotting doesn't weaken it as much. High temp brake fluid helps too.
• Bigger brake rotors improve stopping power. The extra unsprung weight will worsen handling somewhat, though.
• Better pads, like hawk pads, will improve stopping power. Hawk pads chew through brake rotors, though, so you'll have to replace your brake rotors from time to time.
• Lightening your car will improve braking performance.

Sideways7

iTrader: (7)

Actually, if we are talking about true race pads (Hawk Blues, for example) they are not good for street use. They run at higher temperatures and don't stop as well at the temperatures experienced on the street. They will also eat though your rotors like crazy. The previous owner of my car was lazy and didn't take of his race pads and ate though new rotors in two weeks.
Also, a v-8 swap and an ungodly expensive brake upgrade are not even remotely close. I can see why people would do a v-8 swap, but wasting over 2k on "upgrading" brake components when the stock ones are more than enough for a race track is just stupid.

ViperDude152

Im sure this is true depending on how many holes are drilled or cast into the rotor and how close they are together and what meterials the manufacterer used.

Personally I don't think drilled rotors will make a huge effect. I have cross drilled, slotted rotors from IRotors.com. I must tell you that they held up EXTREMLY well while both my front cailpers locked up and put a huge amount of stopping force on the rotors. I could not go in 4 gear. 3rd Gear at 3000-4000rpm was hard enough to keep the car rolling.

I drove for about 2-3 miles like this to my house. Figured this will be the absolute test. If they brake while doing 30-40mph on a back road. Then I still have the e-brake and its better then if they brake doing 60mph on the highway.

I have had them for about 2 1/2 years now and they are still in like new condition. there are no visible cracks on the rotor although I don't have a microscope to find the tiny ones IF ANY and if there are they would have broke be now.

My rotors have 4 holes in a line. They seem strong enough to me. I would not recommend x-drilled though since I don't see any improvment.

When it rains it seems to take an extra second to get the car to start slowing down. I don't exactly know if its because of the slotted or drilled rotors though. May just be the rain coming from the brake ducts soaking the rotors... I don't know.

Can't imagine it would effect handling to the point that you can feel it.

Agreed. You can improve your braking power with simple inexpensive upgrade such has slotted rotors, different pads, SS Brake lines or larger diameter rotors which I would think you would need a complete upgrade or have the calipers moved out ward a little more so you could use bigger rotors.

Non of this will have any good effect is you have even the slightest leak some where or if your master is not working the way it should or even if your calipers are not moving freely.

Once I put SS brake lines on my car, my brakes felt a lot stiffer. They reacted much quicker from the time you slam on the brakes to the time they actually take effect. No spungy feel. Well.. not as much. I have 2 leaks in my brake system. One at the caliper and one at the mast cylinder.

Don't say anything about me driving in the danger zone!

Delaminating? Dust and dirt working through the braid? What is to not stop the dust and dirt to adhear its self to OEM brake lines? They get dust and dirt on them all the time. You must have used or seen cheap SS lines?

Which brings me to why mazdatrix sells DOT certified SS lines.

My5ABaby

iTrader: (7)

The biggest upgrade you can make is good tires.

The best thing to do starting out is make sure your whole system doesn't suck.

ViperDude152

^ Tires do help a lot as long as your braking system works

Black91n/a

The Corksport, Mazdatrix and Goodridge SS lines are all coated, probably most of them are to prevent the contamination issue.

I'm not convinced that drilled rotors will cool any better than plain rotors. I've yet to see any evidence one way or another on that issue, so it's just conjecture. Even if they did cool better, I highly doubt that it'd be more than about a 5% difference, which could easily be more than compensated for with proper ducting.

As for the drilled rotors, it doesn't matter if they're cast in, forged in, drilled or whatever, a hole is a hole and it's a stress riser. With more holes closer together it'll amplify the problem, but with just one hole, the likelyhood of cracking goes up. It's mostly in really hard use, ie racing, where they crack due to the extreme forces and temperature changes they're subjected to. On the street they'll last for years and will probably wear out before cracking, but it still happens sometimes.

Drilled rotors work just fine and can be run sucessfully at the track and on the street, they're just not a performance upgrade.

Tires are the best upgrade, provided the brakes are sufficient to make use of the extra grip.

ViperDude152

What do you mean by this? Coated where?

ericgrau

iTrader: (1)

drilling: We covered this in my structural materials class. +1 to what Black91n/a said on this.

Tire upgrades will only help if you're skidding. Conversely, brake upgrades will only help if you're not skidding.

Handling might not be worsened too much, depends how heavy the wheel plus brake rotor is.

Sideways7

iTrader: (7)

First, larger brakes DO NOT improve stopping power on our cars, they simply reduce the amount of fade. On cars using racing pads, racing fluid, stainless lines, and slotted rotors, what it takes to experience fade is so high that it would take a long race on a track to actually get to that point. As I said earlier, people run for extended periods of time on a race track with nothing more than race pads and fluid, and still experience no fade.
Also, cross-drilled rotors are not a good idea in any scenario. I have personally witnessed a Ferrari 360 (with the Brembo floating caliper brake system - basically the ultimate form of cross-drilled rotors) crack a front rotor. This was on a race track under heavy use, but the fact still remains that even the best of the best cross drilled rotors are still prone to cracking. They are really nothing more than a fashion statement, since slotted rotors are just as effective and less prone to cracking.

ericgrau

iTrader: (1)

Okay, I looked it up:
http://www.teamscr.com/grmbrakes.htm
"From this example, it would appear that in order to make the car stop in a shorter distance, there are two options:

1. Change the brake system to increase the force between the tire and the road for a given pedal input force.

2. Press on the brake pedal harder"
#1 refers to brake system upgrades, everything from pedal to rotor. It only feels better because it takes less effort to stop.

I didn't believe it, but only tires decrease stopping distance. Tire skidding is the limiting factor. With your brakes you can simply push harder.

So why modify brakes? (summarized from the link above)
1. Driver preferences, i.e. feel. Brake pedal, master cylinder.
2. Better cooling (slotting, upsizing) to prevent fade.
3. High temp brake pads and fluid, if you can't do #2.
4. Reducing compliance (e.g., stainless lines). Increases firmness, consistency in feel, makes #1 easier.

I still wonder about 1 thing, though. Why do different cars have such different stopping distances, even with the same tires? The RX-8 and Porsches easily come out on top.

Here's Mazda's blurb on the RX-8's brakes:
"On top of a standard Anti-lock Brake System, large diameter ventilated disc brakes team up with Electronic Brakeforce Distribution (EBD), so that front and back breaks quickly modify response to fickle road conditions. "

And now some stats:
Car, Wet/Dry 60-0 Braking Distance in feet (Tire Maker)
RX-8, 117/130 (Bridgestone Potenza)
s2000, 126/134 (Bridgestone Potenza)
Scion tC, 136/147 (Bridgestone Potenza)
Civic Si, 132/141 (Michelin Pilot HX)
Civic, 136/136 (Bridgestone Turanza)
Porsche Boxster, 112/123 (Michelin Pilot Sport)

Black91n/a

When I say the lines are coated I mean there's a plastic sheath around the SS part of the line that'll prevent the SS from contacting the outside world.

Larger rotors won't help stopping distances provided you can already lock up the tires with a properly working braking system. If you're using 14" wide slicks then that may not be the case anymore, so larger rotors might just help stopping distances.

As was just said, if you can lock the tires then better tires will help, better brakes won't. If you can't lock the tires then better tires won't help, better brakes will. That said, in 99% of the cases with the FC, as long as the brakes are functionning properly with decent pads and fluid, better tires are the answer, not better brakes, but it's not a steadfast rule.

ericgrau

iTrader: (1)

Yeah... and I said that. But that article I found said otherwise. It claims simply pushing harder on the brake pedal will also increase braking force as much as you need. It claimed tires were the only thing to worry about. Maybe the article is wrong, then? 'cause for some reason different cars with the same tires have greatly different braking performance. As it happens the RX-8 - with one of the shortest braking distances - has very large brake rotors.

iceblue

Rotor diameter is where most of the stopping power is at. You cant stop when the tiers are sliding so good tires are important. I prefer 2 piece driller rotors. Driller rotors only crack when you by cheep shity ones. By the right stuff or don’t come wining because you will just get some cheese from me. willwood has some of the best caliper replacements for the FC. The drills are for cooling to reduce brake fade under high stress situations.

ViperDude152

By using a larger diameter brake rotors it give more leverage increasing the brake force

Not on mine. I got mine from mazdatrix.

This does not mean they were the BEST rotors. Let me see how many holes were drilled or cast into the rotor and how close they are together. That makes the rotor more vulnerable to cracking. I have seen many high end manufacturers make items that were not the best which is why you can most of the time buy better quality things. On the other hand if you don't look hard enough you may just buy somthing even more cheaply made.

Sideways7

iTrader: (7)

As stated earlier, more braking force does nothing if you can already lock up the tires, which is the case on every vented disk-equipped FC with a properly working brake system, especially ones with the better brake pads. My point is simply that on our cars any major upgrade such as larger rotors is futile since the existing size is perfectly sufficient for everything but extreme racing conditions.
And you can use drilled rotors all you want, but I still say the only reason to get them is for the visual upgrade. I don't care if it has 2 holes drilled or 20, you are still introducing an unneccesary weak point to the rotor. If you really want the drilled look, get the power slot ones that have dimples. That way you get the look, but not the failure points.

iceblue

Ummm no

ViperDude152

Just because you can lock up the tires by slamming on the brakes doesnt mean you can't upgrade to have possible better feel or to even prolong pads and rotors. Using larger rotors would give you more leverage which would put less force on the pads them selfs giving you better braking force without the possibility of the pads or rotor life decreasing as much as they are now. This all means you wouldn't have to press the pedal as hard to slow the car down. I have stock 14" rims with snow tires on it. Pretty light till I throw on my heavier 17" wheels. There is more rotational momentum to decrease with them putting more strain on the pads and rotors.

And with the drilled rotors. Normal street driven braking would not be enough to brake a good quality drilled rotor. But like I said before. After getting them I don't see the point.

Sideways7

iTrader: (7)

Yes, I agree that you will not damage good quality drilled rotors on the street. I will also agree with you that larger rotors can increase the life of the pads and rotors in certain situations. Unless you track the car regularly, you will not see enough benefit to justify the expense. And again, the pedal effort and feel can be made very good just by upgrading/replacing things such as pads, lines, and fluid. Other than somthing such as circuit racing, there would be no justifiable benefit from larger rotors.