eriksseven

iTrader: (6)

I'm going to be re-rebuilding my TII block using some good quality N/A housings (all that's available). And I was told that instead of having to grind out the N/A exhaust diffuser, I could instead remove the N/A sleeves and replace them with the TII sleeves.

Is this possible with basic tools, or do I need some crazy machine or something?

Thanks guys

wpgrexx

yeah you can switch them over. You need to tap threads into the roll pin and than screw in a bolt and pull the pins out, than the sleeve should fallout. But you do know that turbo housings have a coolant feed in the rear housing for the turbo, you will have to cut the NA hosuing to get that coolant source again

eriksseven

iTrader: (6)

^ ya, I am aware of the coolant feed...

I don't know what you mean by "tap threads into the roll pin, then screw in a bolt and pull the pins out." Not because you did a bad job explaining it, but because I don't know what a "thread" or a "roll pin" is.

I think I'm just going to grind out the exhaust diffusers (since anyone can do that).


Thanks wpg

Aaron Cake

iTrader: (1)

Then I'm not sure you should be building an engine.

Essentially, he was saying that you need to create a set of threads inside the pin that holds the sleeve to the housing. Put a screw or bolt into that thread, and use it and a pry bar to pry out the pin.

wangerrr

I'm pretty sure that people need to start somewhere, and to learn from something/someone. Keep up the good work and persistance on your engines Erik. I know that I would have given up by now.

BDC

Aaron, please sticky this thread if you could; perhaps move it to Rotary Performance section as it will come in more handy there in my opinion.

---------------

Basically, I'm copying this over from NoPistons forum so please don't shoot me. This one has been a personal pet peeve of mine for a long, long time. I've had to pay other people money to get these damn rollpins out. But, recently, I finally figured out a sure-fire way of doing them.

First, purchase some #6, 1/2" long (no longer) sheet metal screws made from Zinc (not stainless-steel!) at your local Home Depot Motorsports and Racing Development store. These screws are self-tapping and, at their midway point, are just a hair bit wider than the inner diameter of the rollpin.



From there, grab yourself a 1/8" or 7/64" diamond-coated, conical grinding stone on an 1/8" shank (as pictured below), using WD40 or other cutting oil, and grind out the top portion of the inner diameter of the rollpin. This will widen the inside of the pin out a bit to allow the #6 metal screw to begin tapping and threadding instead of flattening the sides of the screw.



After that, whilst applying force, use a screwdriver to tap the #6 screw into the pin. You may need to use a hammer to lightly 'start' the screw into the pin. Once the screw begins to tap and thread, it will become increasingly more difficult to continue. Once it stops or has gone a good portion in, it's good-to-go.



Once completed, use the prying end of a hammer to gently pry the pin/screw pair out. Be careful as the side of the aluminum rotor housing is used as the counter-pivot point for the hammer. I recommend placing some cloth or something down.

Place the pin/screw combination in a vise.



Unscrew the screw from the pin. Toss the screw. The rollpin is re-usable. All-done!



There ya go.

B

eriksseven

iTrader: (6)

yeah, I'm still making my transition from n00b to knowledgable. But with the pics (thank you BDC!) everything now makes perfect sense.

I actually JUST disassembled my 3rd motor in three days (all the motors I've got, lol). I finally struck gold after pulling and taking apart my '87 N/A's "swapped" 60k mi. motor, that had died prematurely due to coolant seal failure. I didn't know what good rotor housings looked like until I compared these to the 140k mi. housings from my TII and the 170k mi. housings from my original N/A block.

This is great ^ (pics and info) because now I won't have to spend 3 hours grinding out the diffusers, yeahhh!

Thanks guys

RETed

I've had zero luck with any of those sheet metal screw procedures on a recent project.
If you do a search, you would've come across a post by Scalliwag that has an alternate procedure.

Those damn roll pins are SUPER hard!
It'll eat even stainless steel screws.

1/8" drill bit - this almost requires a *carbide* drill bit
McMaster-Carr has them for a little under $20.
Some seller on eBay sells them for $9.90 for a set of 10...from Hong Kong.
You need to drill the center of the roll pins out to a larger size.

#6 - 32 tap
McMaster-Carr sells a carbide one for SIXTY-FOUR dollars!
If you can afford one, this is a bonus!
There is one seller on eBay that sells HSS ones for like $14 for a set of 12.

You need to tap the center of the drilled roll pin to this new size.

Get a 1" or longer bolt in #6 - 32 threads - I recommend stainless steel or Grade 8 cap socket screw for the hardness so you don't strip the threads - the cap socket hex makes it easier to handle if you got hex or Allen keys.

You also need a nut of similar material and a 1/4" fender washer.

A 1/2" tall bushing or similar (I used a big nut I found laying around the garage) to help you remove the roll pin.

So...

Shoot the roll pin with your favorite penetrant.
I recommend to bang the sleeve itself with a mallet to loosen the roll pin - this really helps!
Drill the roll pin with the 1/8" dill bit - if you're lucky, the drill bit will seize into the roll pin and spin it loose - if this happens, you should be able to pull the pin out now.
If the roll pin is still in there, tap the inside of the roll pin with the #6 - 32 tap.
Tap at least half-way through, or about 1/4" down.
Remove tap and try to get as much of the metal chips out - I would shoot the hole with penetrant to try and get the chips out.
Put bushing (or large nut) over hole.
Position large fender washer over the bushing or nut.
Thread nut onto cap socket bolt then thread bolt down into threaded pin.
Allow the bolt to bottom out and thread the nut as high up as possible to allow the bolt to thread all the way down.
Now, using a hex key, keep the cap socket from spinning.
With a wrench, no spin the nut down - this puts pressure onto the fender washer which should remove the roll pin.

Good luck!


-Ted

eriksseven

iTrader: (6)

^ right on. I'll try BDC's method first because it's so simple (and he's got pics, lol). But if I fail to remove the pins using his method, I'll try your "heavy duty" removal technique. Thanks

Aaron Cake

iTrader: (1)

Moving a copy to the archives...

Net Seven

iTrader: (5)

You could also do it like Judge Ito. If you got access to a MIG welder, just keep tacking weld on top of the pin. Tack it, let it cool, tack it, let it cool, keep doing that til you get a pile of weld that you can grab with pliers and pull it out. Worked great for me.

eriksseven

iTrader: (6)

^ that's pretty ingenious, lol.

I don't have access to a MIG welder, but thanks for the idea.

RotaryEvolution

iTrader: (30)

well i was going to suggest after soaking the pins in oil you can heat up the aluminum to allow the pins to slide out easier.

White_FC

They're really not that hard to drill out at all if you've got a drill press and they're cheap enough to buy new ones to put back in.

Thats what I did last time anyway.

Hell of a lot quicker than any of these methods IMHO.

eriksseven

iTrader: (6)

^ Where would you suggest buying new roll-pins from?

I tried BDC's method, but as I was 'tapping' the #6 1/2 *zinc* screw in, the head snapped off...

Because Ted's method required sourcing tools unfamiliar to me, I decided that I would just suffer through the boring/akward/loud/tiring grinding process, lol. But if I can "remove" them by destroying them, and then replace them easily after swapping, I will definitely try your way.

Just to make sure, a drill press just a drill that is setup on some sort of an "arm", that allows it to make "perfectly straight down" holes (or whatever), right?

Would I have to find OEM roll-pins, or would I be able to find (easily) generic replacements? Just curious, is there anything else one would be able to use instead of a roll-pin to hold the sleeves in place? Or (just a thought), are the sleeves even necessary? Like, could they be removed completely with no detrimental side-effects?

RETed

What's the proper size?
I've got easy access to 3/16" ones from Home Depot, and they are slightly too small.
They slide in and out too easy.
If they were 7/64", it should be perfect, but no way Home Depot carries stuff like that.
I just pry the 3/16" ones open slightly to make them snug.

Yeah, this is assuming you have no drill press handy.
Sometimes I have to do this "in the field", and I cannot assume I can get access to a drill press.
A portable drill works fine.


-Ted

White_FC

Any engineering/mining supply shop?
I dunno what ones you'd have locally to you....

Yeah that sounds like a description of a drill press to me

Yeah a roll pin is a roll pin is a roll pin basically.
I've forgotten the size of them off hand though, but just measure the hole after you've taken the old ones out, don't drill any bigger than the stock hole though.

Yeah people have built engines without sleeves at all. Only useful for rather high powered engines though and it really needs a good manifold design to take any advantage it may offer.

eriksseven

iTrader: (6)

^ thanks for all the responses guys. I was finally sucessful in swapping the sleeves, yeah!

What I did:

Yesterday I snapped the head off of a screw while attempting BDC's method. The first order was to remove THIS roll-pin, being that it would likely prove to be the most difficult. There was not enough of the "head-less" screw protuding, to get a decent grip on it with vise-grip pliers, so I pounded it IN to the roll pin, so as to get a decently flat surface 'down there' to drill into.

Then, using a drill press and a 'bit' slightly less in diameter than the outside of the roll pin, I drilled THROUGH and into the broken off screw lodged into the pin.

After lifting the drill, I was left with enough of the (now thin walled) roll pin, to thread a (thicker) screw into it.

I then REMOVED the thicker screw.

THEN putting a similar (fresh) screw into a 'slide hammer', I threaded it BACK into the roll pin (tightly) and after several easy tugs *up* on the slide hammer, I managed to pop the damaged roll pin out.

I used a similar method on all of the 'unmolested' roll pins, using the #6 sheet metal screws that BDC suggested. I opted to use 3/4" screws, so that after being installed onto the tip of the slide hammer, there was still enough threads protruding to get a decent bite into the roll-pin.

To remove the roll-pins:

Lightly tap the tip of the #6 screw into the end of the roll pin and firmly thread it in. Be careful not to put TOO much down-force on to the screw, or you'll end up flattening the threads, instead of allowing them to bite into the interior sides of the pin.

Then remove the screw, attach a FRESH one onto the tip of the slide hammer and begin slowly (and firmly) threading it back into the roll-pin. After it's snug in the pin, a few gentle taps *up* using the slide hammer will pull the roll pin out flawlessly.

Several times the screw would pop out (without the roll pin attached) and I'd have to repeat the process using a fresh screw that I would just thread deeper into the pin.

To install the the TII sleeves into my N/A housings, a little spacer has to be removed from underneath the N/A sleeves. It was an approx. 1/6th" metal ring that I lifted out using a screw driver and a hammer for tapping.

Like RETed suggested, you can loosen the sleeves even while the roll-pins are installed. There is about 2mm of play or so, side to side, that can be used advantageously to wiggle the pin slightly out of the sleeve before 'threading' into it.

All of the removed roll pins were reusable (except the damaged one), so I just lighly tapped the necessary one's back into place after swapping the TII sleeves into the N/A housings.

I used some penetrant similar to WD-40 for lubrication and easier removal.

BTW, I had a couple older "mechanic" types who helped me out trouble-shooting the removal of the pins. (I Don't want to take any undue credit).

Also a drill press with the correct diameter bit, works perfectly for drilling the coolant feed into the housing.

Thanks again

RETed

Good work!


-Ted

Tofuball

Personally, I just used some Craftsman "Screw outs" with a T-handle to distribute the torque evenly. Pops those pins right out.

(NEVER EVER BREAK ONE OFF)

ddub

Tried that, didn't work for me. Also tried the SS wood screw/vice grip method, no go. Also tried tapping it, putting in a bolt, and pulling out, still didn't work.

I had to settle with a dremel and a mini cut-off wheel. Quick, dirty, but worked. Obviously I had to replace the roll pins with the new sleeves.

By the way, resurrecting a year old thread just to say this?

Tofuball

It's a good thread, with useful information, unlike most in this section :p

And hey, I had something to add to it that I thought would be helpful to people who read this thread.

So yes, ressurecting a year old thread just to say this

R.P.M.

iTrader: (3)

Ewwww WTF....drilling and tapping is the HARDEST WAY!!

Here look at this:
http://www.rxclubofontario.com/rxfor...topic.php?t=75

This method only took me 10 minutes to take out 1 exhaust sleeve.


By FAR the easiest way to do it!

TonyD89

iTrader: (10)

Well, I couldn't access. I just clamp them to the mill table and carbide them(the roll pins) out.


edited for clarity.

RETed

Cut-n-paste?
You need to be a member to look in there. :P

IMO, the easiest way is to just tack weld a "pin" in there and yank that **** out.
The heat helps with the removal.

I don't like anything that causes the roll pins to expand - this just makes it harder to remove. :P


-Ted